i cant honestly believe the reactions this is getting from across the pond the americans really do have a different way of thinking to us europeans.

i personaly dont like the photo but it does nothing for me but i can totaly see why it was shot

Malum, I just want to add quickly that I do not in any way look down upon your ideas. I actually agree with you, I just find it hard to follow since I grew up in a much different culture. I just wanted to make sure that you understood that I was in no way saying anything negative about you, just progressing the conversation. I appreciate your honest answer and maturity (by that I mean not calling me names).

Malum, I just want to add quickly that I do not in any way look down upon your ideas.
No worries, I took that as a given

great series!

firstly, farncois, as always, great work, I love.

Secondly, about the comments that followed. What a bunch of prudes. the negative comments posted all smack of a lack of self trust. The way you lot carry on, pretty soon doctors will be holding a towel up infront of a mothers when they give burth to immedeatly cover the child up so no one sees them naked. Then mothers would not be allowed to bath their kids because they run the risk of seeing them naked.

its the old saying, it takes one to know one. if you dont trust yourself first then you wont trust others in similar situations.

get over it people, just because someones naked it doesnt mean there are bad intentions.

savone wrote:
Wow, unlike everyone else who seems bothered by opinions in this thread, I find all of the opinions on either side VERY interesting. At first glance of the photo I did not see anything wrong with it. It is natural for people to be nude, maybe not in out culture (USA) but as human being in general (we are not born with clothes). I am not disturbed by the photos, BUT, I pose this situation / question.

A father has every bit of love that a mother has for his children. I know being a father of a three year old girl. So...

Would this image work if it was a man holding his 6 year old daughter, both nude?


A great point. As the father of a 2.5 year old girl, I wonder the same thing.

malum wrote:
So you often hang out in the nude with your daughters?
Er yes.

I have absolutely no problem being nude around my kids, they are almost 4 and 19 months old. I will have no problem being nude around them as they grow older. I suspect that as they reach adolescence they will naturally have a problem being nude around me, which is also fine.
A naked body is nothing to be ashamed of or hidden. None of this has anything to do with sex or sexual intent.


I personally try to hide my personal parts from my daughter, and maybe that is wrong.

I find it terribly sad that you think you need to do this.

Great points, malum. Like savone, I too find it necessary to 'cover up' and make sure that she doesn't see my private areas. It's very interesting to hear and read about the opposite. Like Savone, I don't look down upon you, it is just so different to think about it another way. I love my daughter more than anything in this world, but based on the way I grew up, the culture of the US, I couldn't possibly imagine hanging out naked with my almost 3 year old.

Different societies for sure. Thanks for your input.

I have a 6 year old boy and a 5 year old girl and both of them get in the bath or shower with me or my wife to us it comes as natural and i certainly wouldnt want it any other way.

the questions isnt if its art or not.

Is it porn ? no
would i photograph my children without clothes and put it on the internet ? no
was pirate an ass for pointing out the obvious ? No
Do we live in utopia ? No.
Do i think nudity is required to convey "protective mother loveing her child" ? No

There are no rules in art. Let's keep it this way.

Charlemagne wrote:
Yup.. You are being an ass and I see nothing wrong with this, it almost looks like a protective and loving mother with a child... but I guess its just me
Charles

The intimacy and nudity of the mother and a child this age is perverted and gross.
If the child was a baby, then maybe ok. But for a male child of his age to be phtoographed nude with his female mother who is also nude in an intimate portrait is way over the line.

The photos have an obvious sexual tension to them, and they are out of line.
It has nothing to do with a protective and loving mother.

The technical aspects of the photograph are excellent. The content should put someone in jail.

A fitting title fb.

"The photos have an obvious sexual tension to them, and they are out of line."

MSB1, you are so wrong and so out of reality that I suspect that you wouldn't see a train coming at you if you were standing on the railroad track....

I’m always trying to stay away from debates like this one…. Francois has every right to share his vision as a photographer as long as he complies with certain rules and I think he does….quite well actually.
This whole thing is getting out of control, being a photographer in our beautiful country become more and more difficult than ever…..and it’s going to get worse, very sad but true. People get approach and question by authorities for photographing buildings, bridges etc…. Union Pacific in Chicago just recently ban photographing Metra Commuter trains from their platforms – what kind of BS is that? And what’s next? being arrested for walking around with the camera hanging from you neck… Do we really have the freedom and democracy everybody is talking about Please stop this madness …

For me, the boy is too old and gives the pictures a creepy vibe.

That kid is going to be scarred for life, and I'm not even joking

Charlemagne wrote:
Pirate wrote:
My wife and I were looking at this shoot and she let me know quickly that in this country, you'd go to jail for this content. She works for Child Protective Services for the state. And due to the age of the child I'd remove this if I were you. Don't mean to be an ass, just looking out !


Yup.. You are being an ass and I see nothing wrong with this, it almost looks like a protective and loving mother with a child... but I guess its just me

Charles

True... I don't see anything wrong with this... but, if the website is registered in the US and under Bush Administration, it can be seen as guilty as murder.

MSB1 wrote:

The photos have an obvious sexual tension to them, and they are out of line.
It has nothing to do with a protective and loving mother.

The technical aspects of the photograph are excellent. The content should put someone in jail.


its all a matter of opinion. It seems that quite a few don't agree with you and I must say I am one of them.

I think you're a good photographer Francois.
I really appreciate hearing people's personal opinions framed politely such as Gnarl and elliotkramer.
Obviously this issue touches home for a lot of people noticing the reactions.
I wouldn't be hanging out nude with my Dad, but that's my upbringing which (thankfully) isn't universal in it's value system.

A similar, uh, debate broke out in another thread here, and I'll say now something I wanted to say then: there are dirty old men and pedophiles and child abusers in Europe, too. Plenty of them. Just because we Americans tend to be more discreet about sexual matters, a little more loud-mouthed about things we find offensive, and (unfortunately) maybe not well enough educated about artistic intentions, doesn't mean that Europeans get a free pass to the high road.

Lextc wrote:
That kid is going to be scarred for life, and I'm not even joking
I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind this?

I like the artistic aspects of the images. Particularly the lighting

I see nothing at all inappropriate with the content.

I can understand that not all households are comfortable being nude. We all have different personal tastes and preferences. Forcing others to be either nude or clothed are equally silly concepts.

However, I cannot understand the intolerance of some of those who prefer to be clothed. For those raised in an open environment, this is a healthy, happy scene. This is not a controversial statement. It is also true that if you are not raised with an open view point this would be inappropriate for you. Cultural context is a powerful reality.

My hope is that people will be more open to new ideas, since we will all be better for it.

I haven't read the entire thread (but I'm going to go back and do so), but I wanted to let you know, fb, that while this particular image doesn't really appeal to me, I am in love with 'Les féroces' in the series (from your link).

tsaraleksi wrote:
Lextc wrote:
That kid is going to be scarred for life, and I'm not even joking

I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind this?

I am curious as well about why you would make a statement like that. If your reasoning is true, then every child that was breastfed, or bathed with his/her mother, will also be scarred. I worry more about children being raised watching graphic sadistic violence on TV and in the movies than I do about a child seeing a woman's breast.

In my opinion, he'll probably grow up with a much healthier attitude towards sex and nudity than most American's have.


Edited by ShadowWalker on Sep 01, 2006 at 12:21 PM GMT

willyusa wrote:
I have to say...this is why I miss Europe so much.... You can't do much in the US without fearing being charged with something... Personally, I live with fear that one day, something I say or do will be misinterpreted and harm will come to my family in the process of "ensuring the well being" of my kids...

Sadly, you're right to be careful. We live in extreme times and are no longer protected or governed by people that care about the constitution, rights, privacy, reasonableness, or reality for that matter. Our country has been taken over by extremists and some very bad people IMO. There are no boundries for them as far as who they will persecute or prosecute. It's no longer a joke to say "they might be listening" because the shltbags in DC really ARE listening......

It's like we have taken paranoia to the extreme.... I looked at the whole series of Francois' pictures and saw nothing but great art.... most of the dirt is really in the mind of the people that see or imagine those type of "thoughts" in everyone else... Hell, I come from Spain and I should know...The Inquisition did some damage, and it was all "for the sake of the people, purity, sacredness, etc. etc."....

It is true that a photolab would probably call cops if you sent the film for development, or sent orders for prints, etc. but you see, they would not care that the photos don't show the kid totally naked, they would think something of the likes of "well, the kid was being abused because he was being asked to strip, in front of adults, etc. etc. etc. " nevermind the woman in the pic is his Mom...

And by the way, I also miss France... the French Riviera is definitely a place where you can relax...away from the inquisition, the thought police and the repressed...

In case anyone is wondering, I would be the first one to put a bullet in the brain of anyone that did anything to a child (I have three daughters), but by God, the last thing we need is mental dictatorships...

Francois, keep it up...you, fortunately still live in a place of openmindedness...



Just as the with the inquistion then, the "justification" for repressive behavior today is often false. The irrational "fear of everything" we experience today is not really about protecting kids from predators (in this case), citizens from terrorists, or civilians from criminals, it's about power and control. The church wanted it then and numerous groups (and the criminals in DC but that's a differnt discussion) want it today. Every authoritarian group or government (Nazis, Stalin, George Bush and republicans, ooops, I shouldn't speak the truth) has used the same tactics since the beginning of history. The way to get power and maintain it, is by instilling fear in people and stiffling anyone that doesn't agree.

In the case of "pornography", the bar is set so low that it is now accepted that if even the stupidest right wing fundamentalist christian is offended by a picture (and what doesn't offend these people), that picture and the photographer must be considered evil and a crime has been committed. I can only believe that these idiots crying "foul" at everything are most likely latent predators or sex offenders themselves. It's just like homophobics that can't accept the truth in themselves.. Sure, there are bad people out there, but these individuals (men and women) will accuse others of wrong doing and see crimes where none exists.

They do not speak for me, nor will they ever......