You know Mr Bonner, while your child was forced to go to school today, he/she is probably being shown images like this in Art Appeciation and asked to decide whether it is art or exploitation. Be prepared to write a 500 word essay tonight supporting your child's decision. Now I bet you would feel exploited.

Phil Bonner wrote:
Anything can be called "art" by it's creator. Good art appeals to our finer instincts and is uplifting. It has universal eternal appeal. Bad art or shock art provokes our base instincts and is repulsive and degrading.

Guess which category this falls into?

Latinos may be hot but they are also are very family-oriented and protective of their children. I cannot imagine this type of shock "art" having much popular appeal in Latin America.

Why is this shock art? because its shocking to you? theres nothing shocking about this, my wife didnt even blink, she shrugged. THATS HARDLY A SHOCKING RESPONSE.

Youre idea of good art is not the end all be all of what art really is. Marilyn Manson is a great ARTIST but his ART doesnt appeal to everyone. That my dear sir does not take away from his merrits as an artists. Bad art, good art, shock art. who are you to decide what is what? Who died and made you the worlds currator?

We are family oriented and protective of our children. I dont see this woman isolating herself from her family or not protecting her child. its not like the OP was alone in a room with the kid.

By the way i love how you dont respond to any of my rebuttles to you. Are they not worth your time or do you just find unwavering truths in them?

Here in California I wouldn't be surprised at all but at least we draw the line and the general population does not expect our children to entertain us with public displays of nudity. I guess according to fb101, you have to got o France for that.

I don't decide which pieces are bad and which good. That occurs in the hearts and minds of the beholder. fb101's stuff might probably viewed as being equal to the Mona Lisa to the members of NAAMBA.

Phil Bonner wrote:
I don't decide which pieces are bad and which good. That occurs in the hearts and minds of the beholder. fb101's stuff might probably viewed as being equal to the Mona Lisa to the members of NAAMBA.


That was low. Even for a southpark refrence. Shows how seriously we should be taking you.

Good job.

Sometimes art is uplifting and sometimes it is uncomfortable, perhaps, because it forces us to confront our own demons.
fb101, I always enjoy your art.

On a side note - There is a definite trend here that the largest threads are typically argumentatvie rather than constructive. I'm guessing if there were a real problem with the law and the subject matter the image would have been removed by this stage. There are hundreds of striking images posted here that don't receive a fraction of the attention that this one has - I can't help but wonder why that is. I remember an image by Maxillus almost two years ago that drew similar commentary - I don't see him around any more. Shame.

Technically I like the image. Artistically I had to think a moment but realized it intrigued me.

fb101 - Quite a lot of your work is outside of the box and technically well executed and this is no exception.

All the best,

M. James

MJN11 wrote:
On a side note - There is a definite trend here that the largest threads are typically argumentatvie rather than constructive. I'm guessing if there were a real problem with the law and the subject matter the image would have been removed by this stage. There are hundreds of striking images posted here that don't receive a fraction of the attention that this one has - I can't help but wonder why that is. I remember an image by Maxillus almost two years ago that drew similar commentary - I don't see him around any more. Shame.

Technically I like the image. Artistically I had to think a moment but realized it intrigued me.

fb101 - Quite a lot of your work is outside of the box and technically well executed and this is no exception.

All the best,

M. James

Maxillus is still around, and his work has gotten even better. The image that was posted that created so much controversy did not have anywhere near the same potential for it as this one does. I don't think the two are comparable.

Arka C.

Sometimes art is uplifting and sometimes it is uncomfortable, perhaps, because it forces us to confront our own demons.

Yes my conscience can be a real demon. Beats being a cold-blooded psychopath, i.e.;

Wikpedia:

A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem egocentric and lacking insight and any sense of responsibility or consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative and incapable of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short, they truly are devoid of conscience.

Phil Bonner wrote:
Sometimes art is uplifting and sometimes it is uncomfortable, perhaps, because it forces us to confront our own demons.

Yes my conscience can be a real demon. Beats being a cold-blooded psychopath, i.e.;

Wikpedia:

A psychopath is defined as having no concern for the feelings of others and a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem egocentric and lacking insight and any sense of responsibility or consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative and incapable of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression. They have no empathy, remorse, anxiety or guilt in relation to their behavior. In short, they truly are devoid of conscience.

Great to see someone quote the very trustworthy and always accurate Wikipedia. OH wait, you quoted Wikpedia, maybe that one is better.

I see you live in the ol bible belt of our wonderful SoCal, ad do I. Doesnt the abundance of republican WASP yuppies with their heads firmly rooted up their moral rear ends, bug you ever? its so irritating. I cant stand it.

This one time i was working and someone asked me what my place of work was all about ( i work at a university) so i told her what it had to do with and that we aspired to produce individuals who will go out into the world and make a possitive contribution to society. I told her that we hope that one day our students will go on to be in a position of authority to be capable to change things and that hopefully they wouldnt have knee jerk reactions like George Bush and would have more compassion and care for humanity. Her response " well what about the bad guys, you guys should do something about the bad guys." these people (the kind i spoke about in the previous paragraph) think like were playing cowboys and indians. All of a sudden were the good guys and our elustrious leader is the savior of the free world. What BS!.

If only things could really be as simplistic, black and white, as you say. Let's see, so all SoCal people are yuppie WASP Republicans, and all of those have their heads up their behinds.

But what about the Californian Democrats? Haven't they taken the world's 5th most powerful economy and bankrupt it to the point that, as an emergency measure, the Democratic Governor was impeached in mid-term and replaced with a Republican?

How is it that the Democrats, who have run this 5th largest economy in the world, have produced the worst public school system in the U.S., even behind Mississippi? How can you begin to talk about sending people out into the world to be leaders that graduate HS w/o ever learning how to read and write? That is, if they ever graduate at all.

What a bogus system the Democrats and their public servant unions have produced in California. The law enforcement unions love the "job security" for their members provided by the broken educational system, a virtual criminal factory spewing 1,000's of crime prone drop outs annually.

You are very lucky because it is virtually impossible to terminate a California teacher, no matter how incompetent they are.

Consequently, I'd say it is quite a dubious distinction to admit that you are:

1) Employed in the California education system, and;
2) A Califonia Democrat.

I refuse to declare my political party because I have none. But if I were a Califiornia Democrat, or, a California educator I'd be too ashamed to admit it.

Bonner, may be I misunderstood you ( I sure hope I did), but are you calling me a "psychopat" ?

Funny thing is about this whole thing - is that if this was posted as (young male model, and female model) display - everyone would have been like wow, how artistic. I admit that when I saw it, I was disturbed - but after viewing the photos for a few moments, I can see the taste used in the photos.

Kudos on the photos... If it wasn't controversal, it wouldn't be getting all the attention. Keep it up!

fb101 wrote:

Bonner, may be I misunderstood you ( I sure hope I did), but are you calling me a "psychopat" ?

I'm wondering the same thing.

Phil, I've not commented on your political diatribes (regardless of the fact that they truly disturb me), but you have gone far, far beyond what I personally (and what I hope others) consider acceptable behavior in these forums if you're slandering fb101 by labeling him a "psychopath." If that's your intention Phil, yours is a despicable personal attack on fb101 and frankly you owe this forum and especially fb101 an apology.

Fb101, keep up the good work and please continue posting here. Don't let the Bonners of the world quiet or intimidate you. Cheers!

Phil Bonner wrote:
If only things could really be as simplistic, black and white, as you say. Let's see, so all SoCal people are yuppie WASP Republicans, and all of those have their heads up their behinds.

But what about the Californian Democrats? Haven't they taken the world's 5th most powerful economy and bankrupt it to the point that, as an emergency measure, the Democratic Governor was impeached in mid-term and replaced with a Republican?

How is it that the Democrats, who have run this 5th largest economy in the world, have produced the worst public school system in the U.S., even behind Mississippi? How can you begin to talk about sending people out into the world to be leaders that graduate HS w/o ever learning how to read and write? That is, if they ever graduate at all.

What a bogus system the Democrats and their public servant unions have produced in California. The law enforcement unions love the "job security" for their members provided by the broken educational system, a virtual criminal factory spewing 1,000's of crime prone drop outs annually.

You are very lucky because it is virtually impossible to terminate a California teacher, no matter how incompetent they are.

Consequently, I'd say it is quite a dubious distinction to admit that you are:

1) Employed in the California education system, and;
2) A Califonia Democrat.

I refuse to declare my political party because I have none. But if I were a Califiornia Democrat, or, a California educator I'd be too ashamed to admit it.

I believe I said there’s an abundance of them, not that all OC'ers are those kinds of people, pay attention. I don’t know how my statement makes you think that I think that things are black and white. There are morons, there are intellectuals and then there’s everyone else. That I believe leaves a large group of people to be different shades of gray, don’t assume things and don’t put words in my mouth dear sir.

I don’t believe your rant about the California HS or Public educational system has any merit here because I work neither in a HS nor a public University. Think before you type. Also, I do believe that our student population is made up of 50% international students and the other half is from all over the US not just California. With a retention rate of high 94% and a graduation rate much higher than that, and also a 100% success rate of students who graduate from our institution who get accepted into the masters programs of their choosing at many major Universities around the US. So don’t assume that were inbreeding like some of the red states.

Lastly my good sir.
I am not 1 an educator although I strive to be one. 2 I am not a democrat and don’t strive to be one... Don’t assume things, and read things more clearly. I said University not HS. HS education is poor not solely because of the teachers but rather largely in part due to the parents who lack the time, effort or will to challenge their children to do something worthwhile with themselves. Asian kids seem to do just fine in Californian HS's. That’s not a stereotype and even if it is, its one I would be proud of if I were Asian.

I work at a school that got accredited 4 years ahead of schedule and one that was able to bypass the pre-accreditation process due in large part to the EDUCATORS that work at the institution. I do believe that a 9:1 student faculty ration doesn’t hurt and in fact nurtures the individual growth and development of the students. So please next time you feel like criticizing anything, pay attention and know what you’re talking about. Also, the fact that we have professors from every major university in the country and around the world would make your point mute and in fact pointless. And just a word of advice, you should stop quoting Wikipedia; it shows your ignorance and willingness to settle for third-rate and inaccurate information.



Edited by SWMorales on Sep 07, 2006 at 09:53 PM GMT (Reason: added to my rant.)

Edited by SWMorales on Sep 07, 2006 at 10:06 PM GMT

Stop the politics here !! There are other platforms for that .

Political diatribe? I was merely responding to SWMorales' lopsided view of the population of S. California. It strikes me as strange that you didn't jump into SWMorales' case for initiating the political exchange in the first place with far more inflammatory verbage than my response, see below.

Or, am I entitled to respond to SWMorales' remarks only if such response is not divergent from your own views? Seems to be a lot of that around here.

Everyome professes to so be so open minded, even, like you, encouraging the posting of imagaes of nude kids on the internet.

Just like fb101 promised, once the word gets out to the peadophiles that FM members like you are defending and encouraing the posting of nude kids' images on FM forums, these forums will be plastered with all manner of this type of "art."

And God forbid that anyone disagree with the posting of images of nude kids' images on the internet or anyone who offers divergent viewpoint from the general anti-U.S. sentiments being expressed here...

SWMorales blurted:

Great to see someone quote the very trustworthy and always accurate Wikipedia. OH wait, you quoted Wikpedia, maybe that one is better.

I see you live in the ol bible belt of our wonderful SoCal, ad do I. Doesnt the abundance of republican WASP yuppies with their heads firmly rooted up their moral rear ends, bug you ever? its so irritating. I cant stand it.

This one time i was working and someone asked me what my place of work was all about ( i work at a university) so i told her what it had to do with and that we aspired to produce individuals who will go out into the world and make a possitive contribution to society. I told her that we hope that one day our students will go on to be in a position of authority to be capable to change things and that hopefully they wouldnt have knee jerk reactions like George Bush and would have more compassion and care for humanity. Her response " well what about the bad guys, you guys should do something about the bad guys." these people (the kind i spoke about in the previous paragraph) think like were playing cowboys and indians. All of a sudden were the good guys and our elustrious leader is the savior of the free world. What BS!.

fb101 asked:

Bonner, may be I misunderstood you ( I sure hope I did), but are you calling me a "psychopat" ?

Why in the world would you feel that I called you a psychopath? To the contrary, I believe you do not suffer from any psycholgical impairment whatsoever and that you are completely cognizant of exactly what you are doing when you post images of nude kids on the internet.

Your comment that I will be seeing much more of the same "art" leads me to believe that with your leadership in this genre, along with the full support of so many here like akclimber and SW Morales to continue posting nude images of kids on the internet, that FM will soon be plastered with this type of "art."

You can be the King of nude kid "art" on the FM People Forum! As you say even the moderators like your stuff so with such support from these peopel here you might even get your own seperate "People" page for nude kids. I guess you and your supporters would think that would be just wonderful.

No fb101 I did not call you a psychopath. As far as I can tell you know exactly what you are doing and are not psychologically impaired whatsoever.

Edited by Phil Bonner on Sep 08, 2006 at 01:54 AM GMT

SWMorales, cool the political stuff. I am sure you are a crack educator. Too bad it's mainly foreigners and out-of-state kids who benefit. At least we both agree that CA needs help.

Wow!

More than the images, i like where the discussion has progressed and digressed from the original point. The images, for once seem brilliant in terms of lighting and idea. But i must admit, the posture of Stephie and her son is contrived to an extent. fb01, please dont rub rub this the wrong way and from the quality of images you've made, you seem a pro.

Thanks

Well, you all go and have a cold shower...

Also, this is a photography forum, so take your political and psychological discussions somewhere else.



Daschund