I'm seriously considering adding a 5D to my 20D for my landscape (5D) and wildlife (20D) photography. One issue that had me wondering is that one of my freequent styles of composition is making 'super-DOF' images, with a foreground object less than a foot from the lens, and needing sharpness to a horizon 5 or 10 miles away. I'm already running into some softness from diffraction by often shooting at f18 or 22 at hyperfocal distance with the 20D to achieve the DOF I need, and it will be more difficult (shallower) with the FF sensor on a 5D. In order to improve my DOF at a more reasonable aperture, I'm thinking of getting the 24mm TSE lens if I get the 5D.

Can anyone give me an idea as to what kind of apertures I could shoot for extreme DOF images by using the tilt of this lens? Is the CA that may be seen with this lens more difficult to remove while using tilt because it is not symmetric?

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

-David

Hi David,

A lot of people say that the tilt isn't as important at 24mm because you already get a lot of DOF, but I have found that the tilt is very useful for exactly the type of shot you mention. The classic example being flowers in the foreground with mountains in the back, or the "going up the road" shot.

I've gotten pretty good results at f/8 but I am not sure if what I am talking about qualifies as "extreme DOF". I don't have any samples on me right now but may be able to dig one up.

Not sure about the CA but my guess would be it shouldn't make a huge difference.

BTW I found I actually used the 45mm the most of my three TS-Es... but where you are out west the 24 may get more use. I love your shots in the Landscape board. --c

Okay I dug up a sample. Now I am not that experienced with this lens yet, and this arguably isn't the best use of it anyway.. but this was taken at f/11. --c

Thanks very much Charles! If I could get by with shooting at f16 with decent sharpness from 1 foot to infinity using the tilt motion, I'd be really interested in this combination (5D and 24mm TSE). As the 10-22 has about become my 'walk around lens', I'm sure that even the 24 TS-E may not be as wide as I'd like!

Many of those are shots where the TS-E could help you. But bear in mind that if you are trying to get a larger aperture to avoid diffraction, you are also going to lose some sharpness with the 24 TS-E because, well, it's just not the sharpest knife in the drawer (so to speak.)

It also has inter-copy variation, so try to pick up a couple and compare them.

Your first and fifth shots you could probably do at f/8 with the 24 with no problem. The second and fourth shots are where it really excels if it is windy.. because you aren't faced with the problem of how to get the aperture down for DOF and the shutter speed fast to freeze motion.

The third shot would be problematic. If you tilted to align the plane of focus to the obvious plane of the shot, the top of the tree trunk would likely go OOF.. you'd have to probably stop down more.

Experiment and take lots of shots with different f-stops. --c

Thanks again Charles. That's a lot to think about. I'd love to see some comparisons at 100% crop to know if a sharper prime stopped down very small for DOF would do as well as the 24mm TS-E when tilted but not maximally stopped down. The size and lower price (unless I can find a distagon 21mm, that is) of a regular prime would be a nice plus;-)

-David

I don't have any Canon primes in that range unfortunately. My Canon 28-135 IS is surprisingly sharp, I do have a 17-40 and a Zeiss 28/2.8. I might be able to do a quick comparison but maybe not until Sunday.

Maybe someone has done this already? I know Reichmann did a 24mm shootout but I don't think he tilted his TS-E. --c

Here's the bottom right corner from the shot above. Considering this is from a lens that many pan as being poor, and it's a 100% crop on a 1Ds2, I think it is not bad at all.

However, I should also point out that it was taken with a copy that was tested against three others and found to be the sharpest. --c

That corner detail looks quite nice. MR's review didn't seem to find much difference between the 4 lenses in that range he 'tested', but didn't include any tilt adjustments, I think. I'll have to remember to buy locally this time, as comparing a few copies of a more complex lens like that may be more important than usual (I'm not much of a 'tester' usually)

-David

I had a 24mm TS-E and sold it fairly recently because I was shooting with a 20D and couldn't see well enough in the viewfinder to focus critically. I'm used to looking at a big ground glass with a loupe to focus a view camera so the TS-E didn't quite have the same feel. I just bought a 1Ds though and am starting to think that I might just go back to trying the TS-E. Now, should I get the 45 or 24....

Here's a shot with extreme DOF using an Ebony view camera with tilt. Not a TS-E but has that near/far thing going.

You're right Andrew, it probably wouldn't make much sense on a camera with a smaller viewfinder to use the TS-E. I'm wondering if there is a particular focusing screen that would make it easier to see the effects of it in the 5D or 1Ds as well.

-David

I really don't find it problematic on my 5D. There is the Ee-S screen for the 5D which is supposed to help with MF, but it darkens the viewfinder so I am a bit afraid to try it. I am not sure if it would help with tilt alignment.

There's always the Angle Finder C (if you like the ergonomics of looking down when shooting, I find it disorienting.) --c

i have a 24ts-e and would make some general comments and clarifications.

it does NOT have more depth of field, it allows you to tilt the same depth of field to you advantage (look up large format camera movements, tilts and swings on the web, pleny of info and too complicated for a forum.

the lens itself does not exhibit extreme CA and when it does show its CA it is at the far edge of the coverage circle when using extreme shifts, not tilts.

re sharpness or assumed lack of. I don't know where this started brelatively few people have them to comment on this and it was accurately pointed out that focus is very difficult because of the small image in the finder. consider also that as a rule wide angle lenses are orders of magnitude harder to design and there are relatively few that are exemplary. i find my 24mm ts-e very sharp. no pics now recovering from spinal reconstuction and don't have access to my library of photos, sorry

I went from contax / zeiss when going digital and sold all my zeiss glass. from really wide to long and zooms. 28mm and above i don't miss them. 24mm the zeiss was better but not so much i bugs me. at 21mm i dearly miss my zeiss and may look to get one.

finally, i shoot full frame Kodak SLR/c your 20D is a reduced size sensor so all of the above will be multiplied both advatages and disadvantages.

bill

charlesk wrote:
I really don't find it problematic on my 5D. There is the Ee-S screen for the 5D which is supposed to help with MF, but it darkens the viewfinder so I am a bit afraid to try it. I am not sure if it would help with tilt alignment.

There's always the Angle Finder C (if you like the ergonomics of looking down when shooting, I find it disorienting.) --c

I often use a Minolta angle finder (fits the Canon VF) which works well. The magnifying feature of the Canon angle finder C will only show the center of the frame I think, and therefore may not help in fine-tuning the plane of focus with the tilt. I always liked the screen with split prism and micro-prism collar in my Minolta X700's before I got a 'modern' AF SLR.
-David

bill vann wrote:
i have a 24ts-e and would make some general comments and clarifications.

it does NOT have more depth of field, it allows you to tilt the same depth of field to you advantage (look up large format camera movements, tilts and swings on the web, pleny of info and too complicated for a forum.

the lens itself does not exhibit extreme CA and when it does show its CA it is at the far edge of the coverage circle when using extreme shifts, not tilts.

re sharpness or assumed lack of. I don't know where this started brelatively few people have them to comment on this and it was accurately pointed out that focus is very difficult because of the small image in the finder. consider also that as a rule wide angle lenses are orders of magnitude harder to design and there are relatively few that are exemplary. i find my 24mm ts-e very sharp. no pics now recovering from spinal reconstuction and don't have access to my library of photos, sorry

I went from contax / zeiss when going digital and sold all my zeiss glass. from really wide to long and zooms. 28mm and above i don't miss them. 24mm the zeiss was better but not so much i bugs me. at 21mm i dearly miss my zeiss and may look to get one.

finally, i shoot full frame Kodak SLR/c your 20D is a reduced size sensor so all of the above will be multiplied both advatages and disadvantages.

bill
Thanks for the reply Bill. That's pretty much how I presumed the tilt movement would work, and would only be considering it on the 5D, and not the 20D. I also would love to find a zeiss 21 somewhere! Hope your back gets better soon.
-David

Hi David,

I used to own 24 TS-E, but my 17-40 replaced it for most aplications. 24 is not wide enough in most aplications for me, and zoom is as sharp as ts lens anyway. I sold mine, and only carry a zoom with me. Zooms these days got sooooo much better. Sometimes I could use a prime, but since I like backpack , I really use zooms more often. Why don't you try rent one and see what you think about it. Also consider, taht with FF camera dust problem gets worst, so chaging lenses in the field my gets you extra time in cleaning the dust later.
Best regards,
Tom

Thanks for sharing your experience, Tomas. I think the advice about renting one is a good idea, and maybe I can do some comparisons to a couple of wide primes and my Sigma 15-30 (I plan on sawing off the permanent metal hood so I can still use front filters with the 5D if I get it). You're right about the increased chances of dust problems with the frequent lens changing that shooting primes requires, especially visible with the small apertures that I often shoot at. As it is, during my shooting 'season', I'm cleaning the sensor almost weekly even using zooms.

-David

Icypeak wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience, Tomas. I think the advice about renting one is a good idea, and maybe I can do some comparisons to a couple of wide primes and my Sigma 15-30 (I plan on sawing off the permanent metal hood so I can still use front filters with the 5D if I get it). You're right about the increased chances of dust problems with the frequent lens changing that shooting primes requires, especially visible with the small apertures that I often shoot at. As it is, during my shooting 'season', I'm cleaning the sensor almost weekly even using zooms.

-David


David,

with FF I'm cleaning my sensor daily when I'm on shoot. If I would have only primes, I would probably have clean it twice a day. FF is a bear for dust.

Here's one from a 24tse on a 1Ds2. I had it shifted quite a bit and I'm sure I had a little tilt. I know it looks like there are some halos but I think that was from BB resizing for the web.

BTW, I sold the 24tse because I felt like I could get all the DOF I needed without the tilt. The lens wasn't as sharp as my stopped down 24-70 or 17-40 when shifted or tilted much.

If I were going to raft the Grand Canyon or spend a ton of time in Zion I'd get one again just for the shift. I do have the 45tse and 90tse and do think I'll be selling them any time soon (if ever).

Thanks Jeff, I remember that nice shot. Glad to know your experience when comparing the 24 TS-E with your zooms when stopped down regarding sharpness and DOF. I'm waiting to hear if a couple of commercial sales go through before getting the 5D and whatever lens I'll add with it.

-David