Beside my admiration for Moriyama, I also believe photos speak louder:

Nikon V1 and the 10mm:


Photo_53 by Exdsc, on Flickr

Yeah, so what's the point?

I've seen hundreds of these images taken by drunken sailors & tourists with a "push here" camera.

I'm not trying to be contrary or argumentative (BIf is much better at that than I ) ... just trying to understand what is in the kool-aid that would make me want to drink it as something "special"

Best I can tell, it is an intentional effort to look unintentional ... otherwise it is just very haphazardly taken image without a clear message to convey to viewers.

...

I love Daido’s movements at 10:33. He’s 73 years old and he moves like a young man.

Daido’s a household name because of Sandra Phillips and SFMOMA, but he and his Provoke cohorts really did transform photography long before he became fashionable. This in-depth documentary from 2001, at the peak of Daido mania, explains why.

I agree with Araki.

I like the Tate video too.

There are a bunch of Daido silkscreens at the Polka Galerie in Paris at the moment, for anyone drifting by. Well worth visiting, even if (like I) you’ve no intention of buying so much as a poster.

Bifurcator wrote:
His speech is probably what got him where he is. He speaks like a sage.

RustyBug wrote:
Suggesting his imagery (i.e. bathtub, etc.) doesn't stand on its own merit to convey his message to viewers ...


Yup! That's totally what I'm suggesting. Photographically speaking: no talent == no talent. I could say almost the same thing about Andy Warhol or that lady that labeled her baby's dirty diapers and called it "art". People like that more often than not succeed because of their politics. Politics in this case pertains to their social circle, their contrived hyperbole, their efforts in self-promotion, and so on. That's not to say they are fraudulent or anything. Rather it's their political "machine" that has gained them success and placed them in the public commentary eye; not necessarily their talent!

There are many actors like this as well just to continue the example. And most of them readily admit it too. We used to call them character actors. They can't actually act (like anyone other than their own personalities) but they have this fabulous "machine" (their term, not mine) which keeps them popular.

Popular doesn't equal good or talented, and IMHO this guy is a perfect example of that. Nice machine but quite average in all other regards.

Bifurcator wrote:

No need to even go off site IMO. Check this sheet out: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1015017/0#9642823 Or really anything Thrice has posted here. And there's many other guys here that totally rock too!

I agree, wholeheartedly. I just googled for "Pocahontas" and linked to the first photo I found.

I think the irony that is lost by many, especially in this discussion is that Moriyama takes photos that will not be understood by everybody, because if he wanted to take photos for everybody then he'd be a wedding photographer or something, or he'd shoot HDR. lol

And if he was a wedding photographer, his photos would become memes, with the words EPIC FAIL! typed over them.

Exdsc wrote:
I think the irony that is lost by many, especially in this discussion is that Moriyama takes photos that will not be understood by everybody, because if he wanted to take photos for everybody then he'd be a wedding photographer or something, or he'd shoot HDR. lol

So explain it so that we can understand it ... rather than hide behind the nebulous "you don't understand".

I don't expect everyone to "get" my work, and I don't do it for "everyone" ... but I can at least explain it when asked. Sometimes it is "cuz it was purty" (not very often), sometimes it is to draw attention to the geometry, or light or some other aspect. Sometimes it is to convey the human condition ... but no matter, it is at least explainable ... please explain.

Clearly we are not included in your definition of "everybody".

Exdsc wrote:
I think the irony that is lost by many, especially in this discussion is that Moriyama takes photos that will not be understood by everybody, because if he wanted to take photos for everybody then he'd be a wedding photographer or something, or he'd shoot HDR. lol


Yeah, that one doesn't work with me. If I don't like it or if I find it lacking then it's cuz I don't understand it? That's a very sophomoric defense and it doesn't really work. Although... you're not the first person to use that argument here!

I understand his stuff. There are literally hundreds of thousands of 17 to 35 year olds here in Japan doing exactly the same things as he is doing. It's a very typical Japanese thing. It's zen-ish and empty-minded. I get it. I just think his examples of it are very stereotypically average and not unique in any interesting way.

Bif, keep in mind that he may have been the first, or at least part of the movement towards this. Compare to Henri Cartier-Bresson and all the people who unsuccessfully copy him.

Definitely NOT the first no....

But OK, if he was an early enthusiast of this genre then he gets credit for that I suppose. Still nothing to do with talent tho.

Remember, that lady who plastered dirty diapers on a peg-board was also "the first". Talentless.... but first.

Bifurcator wrote:

Yeah, that one doesn't work with me. If I don't like it of find it lacking then it's cuz I don't understand it? That's a very sophomoric defense and it doesn't really work.

I understand his stuff. There are literally hundreds of thousands of 17 to 35 year olds here in Japan doing exactly the same things as he is doing. It's a very typical Japanese thing. It's zen-ish and empty-minded. I get it. I just think his examples of it are very stereotypically average and not unique in any interesting way.



I don't understand the appeal of lots of photographers, it does not mean I get upset, I don't even care about it.

In most cases I prefer to say, I don't understand, but sometimes one's pushed a bit and then people need to be put on their place - especially when Daido Moriyama is in question.

carstenw wrote:
Bif, keep in mind that he may have been the first, or at least part of the movement towards this. Compare to Henri Cartier-Bresson and all the people who unsuccessfully copy him.

Starting an intentional, unintentional meaningless "style" isn't exactly what I would call "transforming photography" ...

Without a message or point, it's kinda pointless (by definition alone), don't ya think. It's like talking to talk without having anything to say ... it just becomes an exercise in generating visual clutter ... very non-Zen like, if you ask me.

Exdsc wrote:

I don't understand the appeal of lots of photographers, it does not mean I get upset, I don't even care about it.

In most cases I prefer to say, I don't understand, but sometimes one's pushed a bit and then people need to be put on their place - especially when Daido Moriyama is in question.


That's all fine and well if you want to think that ... but you have people ASKING YOU to help them understand. Simply suggesting that they "don't get it" and need to be "put in their place" isn't much of an answer to their question, nor very much in the spirit of Zen, now is it sensei.

If you truly are an advocate of his, then you'll aspire to help others understand ... rather than pound your chest at how you "get it" and others don't. There are people that don't get HSB, AA, etc. ... but typically when someone says "I don't get it" ... an effort is given to help them try to understand, rather than a compulsion to "put them in their place".

And you say ...

Oh, there's irony in this thread, but that's not it.

Cool, checked out his stuff. I like some of his black and white stuff. Color stuff doesn't interest me at all, but that's fine, if he makes good money off of it who cares what I think that's for sure.

When I look at an ansel photograph though, it resonates with me, that's for sure--completely different--maybe because I just love landscapes, and love the american west, and I think damn someday I hope to capture a scene 1/100th as good as he was able too, and I'd be satisfied with that, lol. Diado's stuff to me just looks like snapshots, but to someone else might be completely different.

Bifurcator wrote:

Yeah, that one doesn't work with me. If I don't like it of find it lacking then it's cuz I don't understand it? That's a very sophomoric defense and it doesn't really work.

I understand his stuff. There are literally hundreds of thousands of 17 to 35 year olds here in Japan doing exactly the same things as he is doing. It's a very typical Japanese thing. It's zen-ish and empty-minded. I get it. I just think his examples of it are very stereotypically average and not unique in any interesting way.

Exdsc wrote:
I don't understand the appeal of lots of photographers, it does not mean I get upset, I don't even care about it.

In most cases I prefer to say, I don't understand, but sometimes one's pushed a bit and then people need to be put on their place - especially when Daido Moriyama is in question.


Someone here is upset? Naw, we're just discussing stuff.

Exdsc wrote:
This video shows Diado Moriyama shooting with a P&S, which is a Nikon S9100 that only shoots jpg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foWAs3V_lkg

It makes one feel really silly to think how much obsession there is for gear and yet here is one of the best happily shooting with a jpg-only zoom P&S.



Having zero interest in replicating this style of photography I fail to understand why the camera he uses should in any way influence my own equipment and workflow choices.