n0b0 wrote:
So what you're saying is that if Canon were to put 9 all cross type in the 6D, it would automatically be worse than the single cross type it currently has? Sorry but I don't get what you're trying to say.

What I am trying to say is: many folks look at the 41 point AF sensor with 9 of them crossed in the D600, and they think that the 6D AF sensor is infinitely worse. But the truth is (i) all the 9 cross AF sensors in the D600 are clustered around the center (ii) there are many many complaints that the D600 AF sensor is insensitive and inconsistent under low light conditions. IOW, we should not be deceived by numbers (41 and 9 in this case) alone. Field performance and real world usage are far more important.

To be honest, I really don't know yet the difference on tracking on the outter points yet.
I've really got to do some testing, but I hate testing, I like shooting haha.

RobertLynn wrote:
To be honest, I really don't know yet the difference on tracking on the outter points yet.
I've really got to do some testing, but I hate testing, I like shooting haha.

Plus I read your post about initial impressions and see you are not a fast glass guy, except for the 85/1.8. It was interesting to go back and read that post of yours.

PS. I am more interested in accuracy than tracking... Accuracy with One Shot would be interesting. If I could fund a 1D4 along side of my 5D3, I'd test it myself.

n0b0 wrote:
How have the wedding shooters been handling this condition all this time without 6D?


Those conditions do not happen all the time. But they do from time to time. For inconsistent and hunting AF there is an easy solution. Switch off AF and MF.

I'm no wedding shooter but don't you focus on their faces anyway and not some low contrast surface like the black tux?

Most time I try to focus upon a face, yes.

thw2 wrote:
But the truth is (i) all the 9 cross AF sensors in the D600 are clustered around the center (ii)


It cracks me up to read comments like these.
What is better: having 9 cross AF sensors clustered in the center or having ... a single cross AF sensor in the center .
Are 1DX owners out of luck with all those AF points clustered in the center?

For those interested, here's a comparison of the AF sensors of the 5DII and the 6D.

The black bars are the detectors for the different AF points.
You can see that some of the black bars on the 6D sensor are thicker - because of the extra sensitivity of the center AF point.

Judge for yourself if these two sensors are similar ot not:

thw2 wrote:
n0b0 wrote:
So what you're saying is that if Canon were to put 9 all cross type in the 6D, it would automatically be worse than the single cross type it currently has? Sorry but I don't get what you're trying to say.

What I am trying to say is: many folks look at the 41 point AF sensor with 9 of them crossed in the D600, and they think that the 6D AF sensor is infinitely worse. But the truth is (i) all the 9 cross AF sensors in the D600 are clustered around the center (ii) there are many many complaints that the D600 AF sensor is insensitive and inconsistent under low light conditions. IOW, we should not be deceived by numbers (41 and 9 in this case) alone. Field performance and real world usage are far more important.


Why this is important defense argument? All the cross sensors on 6D are in dead center of the frame ;-)

What I think makes the D600 sensor very good is when it comes to the non-cross sensors: I believe (someone correct this if I'm wrong) that you can pick any point on D600 and have the other around act as assist ones. Whereas on 6D, all you get is one single-orientation point and that's it.

From going through the forums of several different photog site besides these, it's seems there are far more people that only use the center point. Why this is, escapes me.

From what I've read, focus and recompose is a terrible way to shoot people/ portraits, or much less anything that needs critical focus (obviously not landscapes).

But beyond that, I'd like to know how the outperform points act. I've never had an issue with my xsi/t2i/7d focusing with the outer points. But now as I'm examining upgrading to full frame, the 5d 2s horrible outer focus points are more front and center as an issue.

I tried the mark in in the shop and yup, those outer points are pretty lame, missing focus in trivial situations. If the 6d is anything like that,, that then it's a non starter- especially for 2k +. That's just a rip off in my opinion. To make it even worse the t4is full cross setup works very very well.

I do portrait work, and center point only camera for me is pretty useless. Basically, if those outer points can't even compete with a rebel, then I'm not buying into canons marketing BS.

Canon got caught with their lazy pants down, trying to rationalize the immense lack of features on the cameras market position. That's what I think.

But please, more input on the OUTER points people, thanks

ashmadux wrote:
From going through the forums of several different photog site besides these, it's seems there are far more people that only use the center point. Why this is, escapes me.

From what I've read, focus and recompose is a terrible way to shoot people/ portraits, or much less anything that needs critical focus (obviously not landscapes).

But beyond that, I'd like to know how the outperform points act. I've never had an issue with my xsi/t2i/7d focusing with the outer points. But now as I'm examining upgrading to full frame, the 5d 2s horrible outer focus points are more front and center as an issue.

I tried the mark in in the shop and yup, those outer points are pretty lame, missing focus in trivial situations. If the 6d is anything like that,, that then it's a non starter- especially for 2k +. That's just a rip off in my opinion. To make it even worse the t4is full cross setup works very very well.

I do portrait work, and center point only camera for me is pretty useless. Basically, if those outer points can't even compete with a rebel, then I'm not buying into canons marketing BS.

Canon got caught with their lazy pants down, trying to rationalize the immense lack of features on the cameras market position. That's what I think.

But please, more input on the OUTER points people, thanks

People (like me) use the center point because of speed and composition. Its faster and more accurate (imo) to focus on your target and refresh your composition, than switching through AF-points (if you have many) or fixing your composition to whichever AF point your camera offers to you. If doing portraits the turn out of focal plain by recomposing may be one or two millimeters imo (If you are used and trained to recompose) using a 100mm lens.
But I have to admit, I personally I never used a camera that offered reliable outer points. There was just no camera or need for it.

6Ds outer points appeared to be more reliable than 5D IIs did (what does not answer your question because I can not compare with the cameras you mentioned), but I am pretty sure I will not use them often anyway. Outer AF points are used by me, if I shoot a previous fixed set using a tripod and having all time to shoot. That does not happen often to me.

Having a 59-61 (reliable) AF point camera I guess I would use them all and let the job of focusing to the camera when (e.g.) shooting BIF. Else I would use the center point and maybe the surrounding cluster and still recompose in 99%.

Ralph

ashmadux wrote: ...From what I've read, focus and recompose is a terrible way to shoot people/ portraits...

I hear that from time to time, and yet that's exactly what I do more often than not. I guess it's a habit built up from years of using manual focus and a split-image circle with micro-prism ring at the center of my viewfinder.

It works for me.

BrianO wrote:
I guess it's a habit built up from years of using manual focus and a split-image circle with micro-prism ring at the center of my viewfinder.


- same here! And I still have a (cross) split image circle in my 5D IIs viewfinder.
But based on this actuell Reuters thread we are not the only ones, I guess.

Pixel Perfect wrote:
The 1D IV has 39 of 45 x-type with f/2.8 or faster lenses and even a number of f/4 lenses.These points are 3x as sensitive to vertical lines as they are horizontal lines The centre row of AF points are higher performing for vertical line detection and the centre point is double-line so it can detect grossly out of focus subjects.

On the 5D III only the central column has high precision f/2.8 x-type points. The remaining 16 central points are x-type to f/5.6 while some of the outer points are x-type to f/4

So is the thought that the 1D4 would have better outer AF points for use with fast glass?

mco_970 wrote:

I wish someone would do a 5D3 vs. 1D4 side AF point shoot out.

Yes! Would love that.

n0b0 wrote:

I don't expect it to have -3EV on all points, though I'd be happy with 9 all cross type like the Rebel... Can't believe I'm wishing a full frame camera to have a similar AF system to an entry level crop body. lol

Oh well, I suppose 5D3 is the more natural progression for 7D users who want a full frame.

5D III price drop makes it much better value now. 6D should have gotten 7D AF, but still with the -3EV centre point.

n0b0 wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
What makes it special?

When I tested the 6D, Canon offered a darkened cave beside the (photokina) booth.
I did a test shot with 50mm 1.4 at ISO 12.800 (as far I remember). I did not really recognize any motive, just realised some less darker spots I targeted upon. The AF grabed immediatelly without any hunting and I did the picture. Watching the screen I recogniced I was shooting something like a collection of boxes glued to the "caves wall" and zooming into the picture I could read the text printed on them! It looked razorsharp (in focus). That felt mind blowing (my mind, of course ).

But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd? If so, they'll need a better sealing on that 6D.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but it feels more like a gimmick that Canon added to take the focus away from the seemingly underspecced (compared to the competition) AF system.

My question is, how useful is it really? Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

W E D D I N G R E C E P T I O N S

timbop wrote:

n0b0 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

W E D D I N G R E C E P T I O N S

I have a LOT more out-of-focus shots using off-center focus points at wide apertures in bright sunlight than I have shooting receptions.

mco_970 wrote:

I have been reading up and specs are that outer points of 1D4 are f/2.8 sensitive, and the outer points of 5D3 are not (I think either f/4 or f/5.6, can't remember w/o more coffee ). They are cross type points, just not guaranteed reliable with faster lenses.

Michelle, just ran across this:

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/16399/what-apertures-are-required-to-enable-autofocus-including-cross-type-or-high-pr

From what I hear, only the center 5 points of the 5D3 are high precision.
From the above link, it looks like the only cams with high-precision points at the outer edge are the 1D3, 1Ds3, and 1D4. Not even the 1DX has outer high-precision points

D. Diggler wrote:
mco_970 wrote:

I have been reading up and specs are that outer points of 1D4 are f/2.8 sensitive, and the outer points of 5D3 are not (I think either f/4 or f/5.6, can't remember w/o more coffee ). They are cross type points, just not guaranteed reliable with faster lenses.

Michelle, just ran across this:

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/16399/what-apertures-are-required-to-enable-autofocus-including-cross-type-or-high-pr

From what I hear, only the center 5 points of the 5D3 are high precision.
From the above link, it looks like the only cams with high-precision points at the outer edge are the 1D3, 1Ds3, and 1D4. Not even the 1DX has outer high-precision points

Hm. But as far I know (read) the common opinion is, it offers best AF ever. So Canon must have drawn some different screws on that and 5D III. Maybe they did on 6D, too.

D. Diggler wrote:
mco_970 wrote:

I have been reading up and specs are that outer points of 1D4 are f/2.8 sensitive, and the outer points of 5D3 are not (I think either f/4 or f/5.6, can't remember w/o more coffee ). They are cross type points, just not guaranteed reliable with faster lenses.

Michelle, just ran across this:

http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/16399/what-apertures-are-required-to-enable-autofocus-including-cross-type-or-high-pr

From what I hear, only the center 5 points of the 5D3 are high precision.
From the above link, it looks like the only cams with high-precision points at the outer edge are the 1D3, 1Ds3, and 1D4. Not even the 1DX has outer high-precision points

Thanks for the link!

Here's another good one...

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/1dx_af_precision_crosstype_article.shtml#showAll

5D3 and 1Dx outer points can function as high precision even with slower lenses, so I think this is a big fundamental difference. It gets to be really confusing when you look at which lenses allow cross points to function, which points are high precision, etc.

And then it gets even more confusing when f/2.8 lenses get categorized into different groups, and can't take advantage of this technology. For ex. with 40 STM not being a group A lens, I have no idea if it actually functions with 'high precision' on the side column sensors or if it's caveated out? And does disabling most of the diagonal cross sensors for it means those points are not high precision with it?

Very confusing, indeed.

mco_970 wrote:

Very confusing, indeed.

+1