Wahoowa wrote:
WesN wrote:
Canon Museum says 5DII is -0.5 (obviously the center point), no mention of the outer points.


In my opinion, I doubt they go as low as -0.5 EV. I believe 6D is the first camera ever that Canon reveals the sensitivity of the outer focus points that are not cross-type. One test that I'd like to do if I could get my hands on both 5D2 and 6D is to test them side-by-side on the performance of the outer focus points. If they have the same sensitivity, I guess we're all screwed by Canon, big time.

A big time screw would surely penetrate a little deeper than merely improving AF sensitivity for the center point.

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Wahoowa wrote:
I don't think Canon has ever released the sensitivity of the outer points of 5D Mark II. Anyone knows how sensitive they are?

+10EV

Ralph Conway wrote:
What makes it special?

When I tested the 6D, Canon offered a darkened cave beside the (photokina) booth.
I did a test shot with 50mm 1.4 at ISO 12.800 (as far I remember). I did not really recognize any motive, just realised some less darker spots I targeted upon. The AF grabed immediatelly without any hunting and I did the picture. Watching the screen I recogniced I was shooting something like a collection of boxes glued to the "caves wall" and zooming into the picture I could read the text printed on them! It looked razorsharp (in focus). That felt mind blowing (my mind, of course ).

But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd? If so, they'll need a better sealing on that 6D.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but it feels more like a gimmick that Canon added to take the focus away from the seemingly underspecced (compared to the competition) AF system.

My question is, how useful is it really? Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

I'm still getting used to reliable off-center af points on my 5d3.
On 1 series I've used the "19" setting and have had good results. On 5d original, it was center only lol.

n0b0 wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
What makes it special?

When I tested the 6D, Canon offered a darkened cave beside the (photokina) booth.
I did a test shot with 50mm 1.4 at ISO 12.800 (as far I remember). I did not really recognize any motive, just realised some less darker spots I targeted upon. The AF grabed immediatelly without any hunting and I did the picture. Watching the screen I recogniced I was shooting something like a collection of boxes glued to the "caves wall" and zooming into the picture I could read the text printed on them! It looked razorsharp (in focus). That felt mind blowing (my mind, of course ).

But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd? If so, they'll need a better sealing on that 6D.

Maybe I'm just jaded, but it feels more like a gimmick that Canon added to take the focus away from the seemingly underspecced (compared to the competition) AF system.

My question is, how useful is it really? Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

Not often that extreme. Usually I shoot what I can see in the viewfinder. - but its great to have it for x-tremes. I guess -2 EV ist still great, too. But with the common -0,5 EV I still could see my motiv and tried to focus manuel, because the AF was hunting and useless. (I shoot weddings at AL for example). Even in dark holes and rain I never got a problem in 5D IIs sealing.

I prefere having one cross type and some non cross type AF points that work instead of having a couple of cross type ones that do not work reliable. In my experience the new non cross type outer AF points of 6D worked more reliable than my 5D II ones. Of course I would have loved to have this -3 EV on all points and all of them cross type. But to be honest: I never used other AF points than the center one regulary ...

I have the old 5D and until now there hasn't been anything that has tempted me to upgrade. I do quite a lot of freehand shooting in bad light, so if 6D really can focus down to -3 EV it'll be great. I almost only use the center point anyway for AF. I also focus manually, so it's good to be able to switch to a different focus screen. Slightly smaller size doesn't hurt either.

A tiltable screen would have been nice, but besides that 6D looks to be just about perfect for me. As long as no serious faults/issues turn up I'll buy one as soon as they become available on the used market.

RobertLynn wrote:
I'm still getting used to reliable off-center af points on my 5d3.
On 1 series I've used the "19" setting and have had good results. On 5d original, it was center only lol.

Sorry to go all tangential -

Robert - how do you feel that the outer points of 5D3 stack up against the outer points of 1D4?

I have been reading up and specs are that outer points of 1D4 are f/2.8 sensitive, and the outer points of 5D3 are not (I think either f/4 or f/5.6, can't remember w/o more coffee ). They are cross type points, just not guaranteed reliable with faster lenses.

Just curious how much difference you are seeing in practice.

Thanks,
Michelle

I have both the 5DI and 5DII and 90% of the time I have to shoot with the center point to get accurate focus. The 5DIII would help tremendous in using the outter AF points. With this camera I guess I would continue using the center point like I have always have.

Ralph Conway wrote:
Not often that extreme. Usually I shoot what I can see in the viewfinder. - but its great to have it for x-tremes. I guess -2 EV ist still great, too. But with the common -0,5 EV I still could see my motiv and tried to focus manuel, because the AF was hunting and useless. (I shoot weddings at AL for example). Even in dark holes and rain I never got a problem in 5D IIs sealing.

I prefere having one cross type and some non cross type AF points that work instead of having a couple of cross type ones that do not work reliable. In my experience the new non cross type outer AF points of 6D worked more reliable than my 5D II ones. Of course I would have loved to have this -3 EV on all points and all of them cross type. But to be honest: I never used other AF points than the center one regulary ...


Therein lies the problem. This 6D is probably going to be fine for those whom are used to focus and recompose, eg. 5D/5D2 or Rebel users... No wait, the new Rebel has 9 all cross type AF points now...

I don't expect it to have -3EV on all points, though I'd be happy with 9 all cross type like the Rebel... Can't believe I'm wishing a full frame camera to have a similar AF system to an entry level crop body. lol

Oh well, I suppose 5D3 is the more natural progression for 7D users who want a full frame.

n0b0 wrote: But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd?

How about a wedding shooter in a dim church trying to focus on the groom and groomsmen who are all wearing black tuxedos?

BrianO wrote:
n0b0 wrote: But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd?

How about a wedding shooter in a dim church trying to focus on the groom and groomsmen who are all wearing black tuxedos?

+100

n0b0 wrote:
Maybe I'm just jaded, but it feels more like a gimmick that Canon added to take the focus away from the seemingly underspecced (compared to the competition) AF system.

My question is, how useful is it really? Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

You really need to read what users say about the D600 AF. It is insensitive and inconsistent. Never be deceived by marketing specs, thought we would have learned that from Canon.

mco_970 wrote:
RobertLynn wrote:
I'm still getting used to reliable off-center af points on my 5d3.
On 1 series I've used the "19" setting and have had good results. On 5d original, it was center only lol.

Sorry to go all tangential -

Robert - how do you feel that the outer points of 5D3 stack up against the outer points of 1D4?

I have been reading up and specs are that outer points of 1D4 are f/2.8 sensitive, and the outer points of 5D3 are not (I think either f/4 or f/5.6, can't remember w/o more coffee ). They are cross type points, just not guaranteed reliable with faster lenses.

Just curious how much difference you are seeing in practice.

Thanks,
Michelle

From the 1D IV white paper I read:

The 1D IV has 39 of 45 x-type with f/2.8 or faster lenses and even a number of f/4 lenses.These points are 3x as sensitive to vertical lines as they are horizontal lines The centre row of AF points are higher performing for vertical line detection and the centre point is double-line so it can detect grossly out of focus subjects.

On the 5D III only the central column has high precision f/2.8 x-type points. The remaining 16 central points are x-type to f/5.6 while some of the outer points are x-type to f/4

Pixel, that's what I read, too, and I wondered how it pans out performance wise. I find on 5D3 that center point is pretty much the best option for my faster lenses, which was a disappointing revelation. I suspect 6D would have been just as fine of a choice, if not better because it is possible to install a matte screen and have the option of focusing off center as needed.

mco_970 wrote:
Pixel, that's what I read, too, and I wondered how it pans out performance wise. I find on 5D3 that center point is pretty much the best option for my faster lenses, which was a disappointing revelation. I suspect 6D would have been just as fine of a choice, if not better because it is possible to install a matte screen and have the option of focusing off center as needed.

Yeah I'd say the only slight disappointment with the 5D III/1D X Af is the restriction of high-precision diagonal x-types to that central column. A few in the central row or even all inside the partial meter circle would have been nice. I you could use centre point and 8 expansion points and have them all high-precision that would be very nice

thw2 wrote:
n0b0 wrote:
Maybe I'm just jaded, but it feels more like a gimmick that Canon added to take the focus away from the seemingly underspecced (compared to the competition) AF system.

My question is, how useful is it really? Am I the only one who thinks that a more reliable cross type outer AF points would be more useful than a single super sensitive center AF?

You really need to read what users say about the D600 AF. It is insensitive and inconsistent. Never be deceived by marketing specs, thought we would have learned that from Canon.

So what you're saying is that if Canon were to put 9 all cross type in the 6D, it would automatically be worse than the single cross type it currently has? Sorry but I don't get what you're trying to say.

BrianO wrote:
n0b0 wrote: But realistically, how often are you going to find yourself shootin in similar lighting condition? Is Canon marketing this camera to the spelunking/caving/potholing crowd?

How about a wedding shooter in a dim church trying to focus on the groom and groomsmen who are all wearing black tuxedos?

How have the wedding shooters been handling this condition all this time without 6D?

I'm no wedding shooter but don't you focus on their faces anyway and not some low contrast surface like the black tux?

Pixel Perfect wrote:
mco_970 wrote:
Pixel, that's what I read, too, and I wondered how it pans out performance wise. I find on 5D3 that center point is pretty much the best option for my faster lenses, which was a disappointing revelation. I suspect 6D would have been just as fine of a choice, if not better because it is possible to install a matte screen and have the option of focusing off center as needed.

Yeah I'd say the only slight disappointment with the 5D III/1D X Af is the restriction of high-precision diagonal x-types to that central column. A few in the central row or even all inside the partial meter circle would have been nice. I you could use centre point and 8 expansion points and have them all high-precision that would be very nice

Yep, one HP AF point at the portrait 'end' of the focus points would be very helpful for my use.

Are there other advantages of 5D3 specifically with fast glass over 6D?? I guess being able to stop down and use outer points on 5D3 w/ good accuracy is the main one I can come up with. But the matte screen option in 6D seems equally appealing.

mco_970 wrote:

Are there other advantages of 5D3 specifically with fast glass over 6D?? I guess being able to stop down and use outer points on 5D3 w/ good accuracy is the main one I can come up with. But the matte screen option in 6D seems equally appealing.

All 5D III AF point are rated to -2EV and 41 are x-type to f/4 and 21 to f/5.6. Also AF point coverage is massively better. Sound like a nice advantage over 6D unless you are working in low light, where 6D centre point will be super good, not that the 5D III is a slouch in low light.

n0b0 wrote: ...How have the wedding shooters been handling this condition all this time without 6D? ...I'm no wedding shooter but don't you focus on their faces anyway and not some low contrast surface like the black tux?

Yes, but faces can be pretty dark when there aren't any light surfaces around them (and pretty small when shooting a group from several pews back). The way we handled it in the past was to miss more shots than we wanted to. (Or, back in the day, we used manual focus and prefocused when possible. We still missed more than we wanted to.)

Pixel Perfect wrote:
mco_970 wrote:

Are there other advantages of 5D3 specifically with fast glass over 6D?? I guess being able to stop down and use outer points on 5D3 w/ good accuracy is the main one I can come up with. But the matte screen option in 6D seems equally appealing.

All 5D III AF point are rated to -2EV and 41 are x-type to f/4 and 21 to f/5.6. Also AF point coverage is massively better. Sound like a nice advantage over 6D unless you are working in low light, where 6D centre point will be super good, not that the 5D III is a slouch in low light.

Thanks Pixel. So I guess the -2 EV is also a benefit over 1DV (rated to -1 EV). I wish someone would do a 5D3 vs. 1D4 side AF point shoot out. Please let me know if you run across such a thing anywhere...

ETA: thinking about it more, though... -2 EV? With a point that is only sensitive to f/5.6 or f/4? WTF is that about?? If it's -2 EV, I am probably shooting my 35L, dammit.