True value of the 5D3?
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retrofocus
Registered: Apr 19, 2007
Total Posts: 3573
Country: United States

pKai wrote:
Access wrote:
This explains the high price well, but not the volatility. Is paying a premium for new camera releases within the first six months or so the 'new normal' among Canon products or among the industry in general?



This volatility is cyclical but nothing new. I remember this sort of thing on and off going back to the 1980s when I first got into photography. Hot items would come out and for a while everyone would hold close to list price and then the discounting would begin. Eventually, prices would settle.

It makes sense that Canon would release the 5D3 at say, US$3500... and get all the early adopters. These people are likely to be established successful pros, which look at cost much differently than a consumer, and well-off amateurs that will pay almost anything for the latest widget. After this tide subsides, then the price comes down for "the rest of us" and they get another wave of sales.

Frankly, the trend of the past few years where an item comes out at a price and stays that way is IMHO, the anomaly. I first noticed this with the 70-200 2.8L II which came out at US$2500 and stayed there until very recently. I was expecting it to drop after a few months like many items had been doing and it never did..... Seems like almost all Canon gear that came after around that time followed the same pattern. The above mentioned economic factors could easily account for Canon trying to hold prices up for as long as they can get away with it.

That said, I think Nikon is purposefully underpricing their products to get market share back. They know that, although painful in the short term, this will benefit them in the long run if successful. I was shocked to see the D800 come out as cheap as it did....and then they doubled up on it with the D600, which is somewhat of a bargain at $2k. IMHO, the 5D3 is clearly superior, but is it $1500 better? I've never touched a D600, so IDK, but I suspect that I would be hard-pressed to find $1500's worth of "better" in the 5D3.

I've been shooting Canon for over 2 decades and am deeply invested in "the system", therefore I have no thoughts of jumping ship. For the type of shooting I do, there's nothing besides price that makes Nikon attractive to me and nothing including price that would motivate me to go through the whole PITA of a system change... I must say, however, if I were starting out with zero gear today, Nikon would get a very long and favorable look. Also, If I were a hardcore landscape or studio shooter, I would seriously consider at least adding a D800 and a couple of lenses to my arsenal. Nikon may be onto something here, marketing-wise.



Agree with most of the remarks (only I personally can't see why the 5D III should be superior than the D800, but everybody has a personal opinion here). From my own circle of photographers - most of them Canon shooters - I can say the counter is meanwhile four fellows upgraded to the D800, one to 5D III, three bought used or refurbished 5D IIs. Interesting trend is that new incoming photographers start in the majority with Nikon cameras, some with D600.



snapsy
Registered: Feb 24, 2008
Total Posts: 4400
Country: United States

Some great responses so far in this thread. The strategy Canon and others employ is called "Skim the Cream" pricing or "Price Skimming". It means charging more initially to capture the price inelastic sales, then adjusting the price to settle the product into its supply/demand curve. I think the risk Canon faces for the large skimming differential on the 5DM3 is that people aren't stupid and will remember how badly they were burned, turning them into price elastic customers.



RobertLynn
Registered: Jan 05, 2008
Total Posts: 11506
Country: United States

These questions aren't stupid per se, but they aren't really worth the time.

A new piece of technology costs more, it's how it's been. There were limited edited camaros at a local dealership that sold $30k over sticker.

They were worth it because someone paid it. Its that simple. The laws of economics are also simple. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you want the features and can swing the price, buy it.

The 5d3 is worth whatever you would be willing to pay for it. At $3500 they sell, at 2800 they sell...people who want it will pay for it.



jeraldcook
Registered: Dec 29, 2009
Total Posts: 524
Country: United States

snapsy wrote:
I think the risk Canon faces for the large skimming differential on the 5DM3 is that people aren't stupid and will remember how badly they were burned, turning them into price elastic customers.


That assumes the early adopters don't realize the price is going to go down. I would argue that most early adopters understand this and are will to pay $3500 now rather than wait 6 months and pay $500 less. This is especially true if the early adopters will also be selling their current gear and are likewise trying to sell before those prices drop as well.



mmurph
Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Total Posts: 2799
Country: United States

S Dilworth wrote:
Compare the price history charts of the 5D Mark III against the D800. There’s not a huge difference there.


Very interesting, thanks! On a percentage basis they are almost dead even.

I can guarentee those curves are baked into a a profit forecast at each compnay.



paregorike
Registered: May 20, 2008
Total Posts: 1014
Country: United States

I have both. I use the 5D III more for people shots and D800 for landscape. It may be because of my two 1.2 lenses, that I use the 5D III more.

I also have the 5D II. I think the 5D III is a successful upgrade from the 5D II, but price wise, I would like it to be the same as the D800, even though I paid the price of early adoption admission plus tax!



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3829
Country: Germany

True value of a camera? What does that mean? based on Yen the 5D III costs as much as the 5D II did when it was introduced 4 years ago. So what is the truth?
It is fact that the same gear in the united states is sold for less then here in germany even though the averages income in the states is higher (2010). It is fact that the same camera (5D III) is offered more expensive in UK than in germany, too. Even the averadge income (per year) is nearly 5000 $ less than here in germany. So the final prices in some countries does not seem to have much to do with exchange rates, I guess.

On the other hand UK has a great cost free health system, we (germany) have a trustable one that takes 15,5% of our income (!). In the united states (as far as I know - correct me if I am wrong) if you do not work for a great company, that insures you, you have to pay a fortune for getting any health insurance and the health care system for the average person is far away from beeing trustable.

If you respect health insurance costs, the average uk person earns more money than the average german. UK house prices are a joke compared to germany (imo), food is much more expensive. Beer, too.

I guess Robert is right. The true value of a camera is exactly what people pay for it.
If only few purchase a body at the asked price,
- it will become cheaper
- it will disappear
- or it might be sold much more expensive to a small target group

The value of any gear does not reflect its developing or production costs allone. Value is what people attach to a product:
I was planing to purchase a 5D III around december to february. Not because it might be cheaper then but just because I might be able to afford it around this time.
A D800 is cheaper. But it has no value (for me). I would not purchase one even it would cost 1000 € less the 5D III. But now there is a 6D. And it looks like this cameras value is even higher (again: for me). And again I do not care about a D600. My existing bodies value is same for me (or even higher respecting the fact that my old camera already gave me the last 3.5 years, what D600 offers now).

You have to find out yourself what value wich camera offers to YOU.



Access
Registered: Jun 07, 2004
Total Posts: 1406
Country: United States

Ralph Conway wrote:
I guess Robert is right. The true value of a camera is exactly what people pay for it.

Yeah basically, value is this, if I own the item, if I were to try to sell it (today) on the open market, how much could I get for it.

Things like "how much the item cost to manufacture", "how much you think the item is worth", or "how much money you have made with the item", or "how much fun you had with the item", even the capabilities of said item "It does X better/worse thean Y" are all kinda beside the point. They can affect the value, but they don't determine it or set it.

Value can differ depending on who is holding the item, ie. a dealer who can get more for the camera than I can because they have a storefront or a reputable website.



abqnmusa
Registered: May 11, 2006
Total Posts: 2085
Country: United States

5D III was worth the cost to me for AF improvements alone
not regrets on 5D III purchase



M Lucca
Registered: Oct 19, 2011
Total Posts: 1040
Country: Holy See

Quit whining. If you cannot afford, don't buy it. Go pick up a used 5d2 or a D800 or a Brownie. Does a BMW have anymore value than a Volkswagen or a Kia? Some people pay $8000 for a wedding photographer and some pay $800 off of CL Photography. If you cannot perceive the value then it is not the product/service for you.

Stop trying to justify for yourself. It is what it is.




jctriguy
Registered: Oct 04, 2004
Total Posts: 1077
Country: Canada

M Lucca wrote:
Quit whining. If you cannot afford, don't buy it. Go pick up a used 5d2 or a D800 or a Brownie. Does a BMW have anymore value than a Volkswagen or a Kia? Some people pay $8000 for a wedding photographer and some pay $800 off of CL Photography. If you cannot perceive the value then it is not the product/service for you.

Stop trying to justify for yourself. It is what it is.




+1



jcolwell
Registered: Feb 10, 2005
Total Posts: 20251
Country: Canada

Early adopters pay more. I know this, yet I'm often an early adopter. Perhaps I should say "and" I'm often an early adopter. If it does something I want to do, but I can't do, then I want it - now! Then it comes down to cost. Can I afford it? Yes, buy it now. No, don't buy it now, wait...

Many other people are also early adopters. Maybe they don't know they're paying a big premium. Is that OK?. They can learn.

What's true value ? What's value? What's true? What's truth? Is it absolute? Is it relative? Regardless, I'm OK. It is what it is.



753951
Registered: Oct 10, 2004
Total Posts: 103
Country: N/A

jcolwell wrote:What's true value ? What's value? What's true? What's truth? Is it absolute? Is it relative? Regardless, I'm OK. It is what it is.

For a moment I thought I'm on freudmiranda forum.



jcolwell
Registered: Feb 10, 2005
Total Posts: 20251
Country: Canada

Maybe it's a Zenranda thread...



jstntym
Registered: Feb 14, 2011
Total Posts: 233
Country: United States

I can certainly respect those folks that will wait until a product is within reach to make a good buy. At my age it's not so important as getting the enjoyment out of something today because I don't have the luxury to wait it out. I haven't any regrets, I've really enjoyed this camera. I did however sell my 5D MkII for a decent price, and one that the buyer felt very fair also, so that went towards to cost of the new camera. It's good to see many others purchasing this camera because they feel the price is within their acceptable range currently. It's a fine camera and many can enjoy it.



Gochugogi
Registered: Jun 25, 2003
Total Posts: 9553
Country: United States

If you're a working pro, paying more for new technology makes sense because that new tool makes more money for you. If you're a serious amateur, the extra enjoyment of a new toy may be more valuable than saving a few bills next year. However, if you're a--PC term--financially challenged or a tightwad, you should wait until the smoke clears and buy used or discounted gear then the bleeding edge moves onto the next big thing. However gear has gotten so good the last few years I can't get excited about the new stuff. Yes, I'm an OF living 2009 tech but I'm not missing anything the latest and greatest can provide.



thw2
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Total Posts: 2813
Country: N/A

Great responses so far.

Time will tell if the strategy that Nikon makes now is worth the while. Will they REALLY be able to capture a huge market share from Canon or they are merely suffering the pains of low profits now without really winning any new market shares? I think the sales in DSLR lenses may give us some hints. So far, Canon is still doing far better than Nikon in the lens sales department...



Mescalamba
Registered: Jul 06, 2011
Total Posts: 2960
Country: Czech Republic

Problem is probably UK pricing more than anything else.

3000 GBP equals around 4500 USD

Nobody in right mind is willing to overpay that camera so much. 2000 GBP is around 3000 USD, which is slightly under regular price.

I guess it will go bit more down eventually and end somewhere around 1799 GBP and similar. If I dont mind AF and few improvements all around, its still pretty much camera with 5DMK2 IQ. I think Canon simply tried how much they can get from customers. Seems working for them nicely.



Gunzorro
Registered: Aug 28, 2010
Total Posts: 6393
Country: United States

I recently tried a 5D3 for a week or so, and although I like it quite a bit, I may skip this release cycle, or wait to buy for a year or more. If it had higher MP along with everything else, I'd be more excited to buy now. But it ends up taking an image very much like the 5D2 for the types of subjects I commonly shoot. I'd say the value (to me) of the 5D3 is about $2500 for a new unit with warranty.



kewlcanon
Registered: Mar 28, 2009
Total Posts: 4404
Country: United States

I value everything cheaper than B&S forum price. Say the price today is $2700, I'll value $2600. The next day $2500, I'll value $2400 until it gets to $0 .



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