6D - hands on & first experience
/forum/topic/1150348/9

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JDFeos
Registered: Nov 13, 2012
Total Posts: 5
Country: Portugal

eosfun wrote:
Come on, eosfun, give us something more about the new sensor tech .

Think reduction of noise, especially at base ISO. That also does have it's effects on high ISO noise of course, but by bringing down ground noise levels the image quality will be better. Dynamic range as a result of the new sensor tech is also to be expected better. Have EOSfun

EOSfun would that NR be on chip ? rather than awfull NR by software

Ps: hint us please :P



Derek Weston
Registered: Dec 04, 2009
Total Posts: 961
Country: United States

JDFeos wrote:
eosfun wrote:
Come on, eosfun, give us something more about the new sensor tech .

Think reduction of noise, especially at base ISO. That also does have it's effects on high ISO noise of course, but by bringing down ground noise levels the image quality will be better. Dynamic range as a result of the new sensor tech is also to be expected better. Have EOSfun

EOSfun would that NR be on chip ? rather than awfull NR by software

Ps: hint us please :P


i think he's saying baseline read noise will be improved. (this will improve DR at low iso, where canon has been behind nikon recently) If it indeed lifts all noise (and I think he's implying it will, to an extent)... canon will be the high iso king.

Shall be interesting.



RobDickinson
Registered: Sep 25, 2009
Total Posts: 3504
Country: New Zealand



If you look at that graph, you can see where the 5d3's low ISO read noise impacts the dynamic range. Thats what needs improving.



mikegrados
Registered: Jan 13, 2011
Total Posts: 171
Country: United States

If you look at that graph, you can see where the 5d3's low ISO read noise impacts the dynamic range. Thats what needs improving.

So the curve goes back down (lower dynamic range) for 50ISO?



RobDickinson
Registered: Sep 25, 2009
Total Posts: 3504
Country: New Zealand

mikegrados wrote:
If you look at that graph, you can see where the 5d3's low ISO read noise impacts the dynamic range. Thats what needs improving.

So the curve goes back down (lower dynamic range) for 50ISO?


Yes it will do because ISO 50 is in essence ISO 100 pulled a stop so it will have 1 stop less dynamic range.



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

dolina wrote:
eosfun wrote:
Come on, eosfun, give us something more about the new sensor tech .

Think reduction of noise, especially at base ISO. That also does have it's effects on high ISO noise of course, but by bringing down ground noise levels the image quality will be better. Dynamic range as a result of the new sensor tech is also to be expected better. Have EOSfun


It would be interesting to see if this will surpass the 5D3 in DR and image noise.


Why should it be same or worse? For that it would not need "new" technologies. The question imo is more, if it will reach or surpass exmor standards ...



thw2
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Total Posts: 2897
Country: N/A

jorkata wrote:
So, it looks like Canon's crippling efforts will result in mostly an inconvenience for pros, who are not supposed to buy the 6D.


If you have gone into Nikon forums and read about the unresponsive and inaccurate AF (particularly of peripheral AF points) of the D600, you'll see that Canon may not have crippled their camera as badly as one is inclined to believe. As a matter of fact, if Ralph's experience is true, it may even trounce the D600 for AF despite what the specs on paper say.

Waiting for the final word on 6D sensor. Canon seriously to buck up on sensor quality. It's seriously destroying their reputation.



thw2
Registered: Dec 27, 2004
Total Posts: 2897
Country: N/A

Ralph Conway wrote:
Why should it be same or worse? For that it would not need "new" technologies. The question imo is more, if it will reach or surpass exmor standards ...


I am curious to hear what the sensor experts in this forum have to say about DR and low light ISO capabilities of Exmor sensor. Is it even possible to surpass them?

Edit: I suppose even the 1DX sensor is based on 0.5 um wafer technology. Hmmm.... If that sensor has such superb low light ISO capabilities, I cannot imagine what can be done with 0.18 um wafer technology...



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

I am not an expert but as far I see Canon still did in DR and noise. The DXO chart shows it in DR (they say in noise its different, but I do not trust them here ). Of course it has to stay this way or become even more enhanced, too. An -3 EV AF system does not make much sin, if higher ISO noise increases.

Ralph



Shutterbug2006
Registered: Jun 03, 2010
Total Posts: 1078
Country: Canada

thw2 wrote:
It's seriously destroying their reputation.


With who?



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

eosfun wrote:
I think wed better wait for a Japanese speaker. And even then, remember its only marketing copy.

It is marketing speak, believe me Anyway, the new 180 nanometer wafers that produce parts of the 6D sensor are developed to reduce noise at high ISO and enhance dynamic range. I bet Canon's 6d will have a great sensor. It might even be better in some ways than the 5D mk III sensor. It might even be better in some ways than the 5D mk III sensor. Let's wait for the EOSfun of it until a few weeks from now Then we will be able to get our hands on a copy ourselves and do the first real life tests.


What do you know, what "we" have to guess, eosfun?



Snopchenko
Registered: May 19, 2010
Total Posts: 2185
Country: Russia

You're completely selling me on this camera... my wife needs a DSLR and for some reason I've ruled out both 1D bodies and non-FF ones. I even considered switching to Nikon for D600 (for her; I might just give up all my stuff and let her rock from now on) but now I'll give 6D a serious second thought. It would mean I could keep at least some of my lenses and just scavenge enough money for the body. Decisions decisions...



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

You have to hold it in your hands, first. My experience was comparable to "S Dilworth"s.
To me it "felt" better, than any other camera I used the last 35 years (there where plenty of). I do not know, what material Canon used. But in size, weight and material it felt like this camera was glued to my hands, created to run out and shoot! Next to high ISO capabilities, -3 EV, silent mode and (maybe) sensor enhancements this created just one thought: "YES!" I hadnt this feeling before (even not with 5D III or any "1").

Ralph



eosfun
Registered: Dec 22, 2004
Total Posts: 2123
Country: Netherlands

What do you know, what "we" have to guess, eosfun?

Nothing that I didn't write above Ralph. Really I don't know much more than any of you. Just like you I have held the 6D in my own hands and neither I was allowed to take pictures with my own card. But I have asked some questions to Canon representatives and got some answers. I did some research and analysis on how far Canon has made progress in the implementation of the new factory workshops and the latest steppers. I can tell you Canon does some things with the 6D, like with the original 5D. That was a camera that was mostly interesting for the way it was produced, at least the sensor production line. Yield and cost effectiveness were paramount, but at the same time the camera was a milestone quality product. A huge amount of camera for the money. The pro model was hardly better in image quality. We will see this happening again. It's the body features that are the main differentiators. The 5DmkIII and 1DX are better allround cameras, but they lack a few bonus properties of the 6D. That is why I am convinced quite a few professionals will like this camera too and may add a 6D body to their kit. All the Nikon switchers and those who complain Canon should do better to compete with Sony haven't realized yet what the 6D is gonna be. Even since the D600 got it's gold award at DPR today, it can't compete with the 6D in some areas. One of it is offering EOSfun . Nikon makes coolpix, but the D600 can't mount our tremendous EF glass And also the 6D has the built in connectivity. Finally, that great feature which makes the 6D a more mature DSLR and up to the market demand of today. Now let's get rid of those ridiculous WiFi adapters and external GPS modules of the old models. The 6D is specwise a bit underwhelming, but in reality this is a great EOS fun camera with full frame image quality and lot's of creative possibilities. Most important, the 6 is not made of unobtainium for most amateurs like the 1DX and even the 5DmkIII that has become out of reach for so many. Have EOSfun



Yakim Peled
Registered: Nov 18, 2004
Total Posts: 16903
Country: Israel

juanpesandi wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
I am pretty sure IQ is better than 5D IIs (which is already fantastic). I am nearly sure it is even better than 5D IIIs. It should be with 2 MP less and same sensor design. But I expect a newer and enhanced one in DR and noise. I am not sure that the camera will be available before your trip or you might get one, if.

And at least in my lifetime it happened a couple of times that I failed, when I felt pretty, pretty sure

Ralph



I guess I'll just order the 6D. I don't feel completely sure of buying an old camera like 5D Mark II anyways.

I'm just gonna wait until the end of November and see if someting comes up.

Thanks a lot, Ralph !


I would strongly recommend not to buy the 6D before you actually handle it. Why? Because you may not like the ergonomics. I have used the 60D (which has similar ergonomics to the 6D) and simply hated it. Of course, personal taste differ with different people so to find out for sure it's best to try it in person.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

Yakim Peled wrote:
juanpesandi wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
I am pretty sure IQ is better than 5D IIs (which is already fantastic). I am nearly sure it is even better than 5D IIIs. It should be with 2 MP less and same sensor design. But I expect a newer and enhanced one in DR and noise. I am not sure that the camera will be available before your trip or you might get one, if.

And at least in my lifetime it happened a couple of times that I failed, when I felt pretty, pretty sure

Ralph



I guess I'll just order the 6D. I don't feel completely sure of buying an old camera like 5D Mark II anyways.

I'm just gonna wait until the end of November and see if someting comes up.

Thanks a lot, Ralph !


I would strongly recommend not to buy the 6D before you actually handle it. Why? Because you may not like the ergonomics. I have used the 60D (which has similar ergonomics to the 6D) and simply hated it. Of course, personal taste differ with different people so to find out for sure it's best to try it in person.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


+ 1000

I handled both and for me even size is comparable it felt completely different.
But Yakim is absolutely right. I would never ever purchase a camera I did not test before.
Walking around for 6-10 hours with your gear in your hands trying to be creative or even just trying to do a good job - a camera should not only convince in features but absolutely in its feel, too.
I guess I can use every dslr and get good results after a while. But of course it feels much better and promises even better results when you love to use a tool.

Get it into your hands, test it and decide after. That is one cause, why I never purchased a camera or lens (that I did not already know) online. I feel much better to visit my dealer and hold in my hands what I think could be the right choice. It does not matter to me to pay some bucks more (if - my dealer made a better offer for 5D III 3 weeks after it was available than any online deal did) or get the desired body a couple of weeks (in reality and most cases it is just a couple of days) later.

If the camera does not feel good in your hands you might not become happy even it does everything you desired ...

Ralph



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

eosfun wrote:
What do you know, what "we" have to guess, eosfun?

Nothing that I didn't write above Ralph. Really I don't know much more than any of you. Just like you I have held the 6D in my own hands and neither I was allowed to take pictures with my own card. But I have asked some questions to Canon representatives and got some answers. I did some research and analysis on how far Canon has made progress in the implementation of the new factory workshops and the latest steppers. I can tell you Canon does some things with the 6D, like with the original 5D. That was a camera that was mostly interesting for the way it was produced, at least the sensor production line. Yield and cost effectiveness were paramount, but at the same time the camera was a milestone quality product. A huge amount of camera for the money. The pro model was hardly better in image quality. We will see this happening again. It's the body features that are the main differentiators. The 5DmkIII and 1DX are better allround cameras, but they lack a few bonus properties of the 6D. That is why I am convinced quite a few professionals will like this camera too and may add a 6D body to their kit. All the Nikon switchers and those who complain Canon should do better to compete with Sony haven't realized yet what the 6D is gonna be. Even since the D600 got it's gold award at DPR today, it can't compete with the 6D in some areas. One of it is offering EOSfun . Nikon makes coolpix, but the D600 can't mount our tremendous EF glass And also the 6D has the built in connectivity. Finally, that great feature which makes the 6D a more mature DSLR and up to the market demand of today. Now let's get rid of those ridiculous WiFi adapters and external GPS modules of the old models. The 6D is specwise a bit underwhelming, but in reality this is a great EOS fun camera with full frame image quality and lot's of creative possibilities. Most important, the 6 is not made of unobtainium for most amateurs like the 1DX and even the 5DmkIII that has become out of reach for so many. Have EOSfun


Thank you



Snopchenko
Registered: May 19, 2010
Total Posts: 2185
Country: Russia

Of course this form factor takes a bit getting used to (I remember disliking the old 5D because it felt like nothing but a large, slow 30D) but since I'm not going to use this camera myself (except in a situation when I'd absolutely need a two-camera setup, thus having to borrow it) it's pretty much a matter of irrelevance to me. Purely on specs, the D600 looks more interesting at roughly the same price (and it already seems to be in stock locally) but having to sell all my gear for a loss - or, worse still, to keep three systems in the household - more than offsets that.

Of course, a 60D is always an option...



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

Imo it (60D) is not an option. Like I mentioned above, it does not feel good in my hands.
Next to this its AF is as sensitive* but not as reliable like my 5D IIs is (imo). IQ is difficult to accept (even it is great) once you went FF.

I need higher ISO very often and of course using it needs a more sensitive AF system, too:

* http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1165802/0#11115805



Ralph Conway
Registered: Jul 31, 2008
Total Posts: 3876
Country: Germany

I am a bit frustrated about this WWW.
Searching for actuell news about 6D one recieves only repeated "trash" like:
"We got a whole bunch of new information from Canon ..." - followed by a quote of "Amazon".

Only "news" I could find where:

"Canon Korea Consumer Imaging sonsukhui Deputy EOS 6D reservation sales sold and implementation of a full-frame DSLR camera with the best picture quality at the same time with a light-weight, reasonable price point for consumers works like a charm the same."

"Best picture quality" sounds good. But this is a google "translation" of a korean (rumor?) page, as far I see.

Ralph



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