n0b0 wrote:

I agree with you regarding the usage of MF lenses, this camera comes with interchangable focus screen unlike the 5D. That said, I don't see it being used as a backup body unless the main camera is another 6D. If you look at the strength of the 1DX or 5D3, ie. the AF, their owners would probably opt for a second 5D3.

...

Besides, any camera salesman would be called a clueless hack if they don't recommend the D600 first with the higher MP, pop up flash, better AF and faster burst. It'll be easier to sell than the 6D plus they can get more profit by selling the extra WiFi dongle for connectivity. Unless of course the 6D costs substantially lower than the D600.

I'm probably wrong but I think Canon screwed it up this time. The feature set of this camera just doesn't make sense. It lacks modern cross type AF, faster burst rate and 100% VF coverage for the more advance market but at the same time it also lacks beginners friendly features like pop up flash.

Lets see the IQ of this new sensor at ISO 25K.
D600 is a useless camera for me shooting events at AL. That is what I already had with 5D II.
And if D600 offers "better AF" has to be found out first. Numbers do not make quality. D700s AF worked worse for me than 5D IIs. D800s AF still has big issues. Nobody knows about D600s AF. I hope in this case Canon just reduced the numbers, not the accuracy of 5D IIIs/1D Xs AF.
This new camera features 25K, -3 EV sensitivness, silent mode at 20MP FF. For 1.4K $ less than its only competitor (for me). Next to that viewing screens are exchangeable, it is smaller, weights less and has wifi and GPS already inside. Together with 24-70 and 70-200 F 2.8 this would be all I NEED for the next couple of years. If IQ is good.

I will try to get my hands on at photokina before/after opening times.

Ralph

Pros won't be looking at a 5d3 for backup as the inferior focus won't be that bad in the unlikely scenario that they may have to actually use the backup while the main unit gets repaired.

Do you expect there would be no market for used 5D2's now that the 5D3 is out for the same reasons?


If this camera has no banding issues it may end up being a bigger seller than the 5D3. I would prefer the better focus but i think there are very many who would rather save the pennies over a focusing system that is not really bad and may still prove to be a vast improvement over the 5D2.

Time will show one way or the other.

n0b0 wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
I am not with you. A photographer using manual lenses for manual focused shooting imo would prefer the 6D and be very happy about exchangeable screens. Or would purchase 6D as a second body not for backup only.

...

Ralph

I agree with you regarding the usage of MF lenses, this camera comes with interchangable focus screen unlike the 5D. That said, I don't see it being used as a backup body unless the main camera is another 6D. If you look at the strength of the 1DX or 5D3, ie. the AF, their owners would probably opt for a second 5D3.

Marcus Watts wrote:
But Canon will not care about what you or i think they will care about what the market thinks and this will probably be a huge seller becoming the second body for a lot of 5D3 users and main camera for many non professional users.


But see... What I can't figure out is, which market is the 6D's main target?

Pros? Pros most likely need the AF so they'd probably be looking at a 2nd hand or even a new 5D3 for backup.

Advance amateurs? Depending on what they shoot, they'd probably be looking at a 2nd hand 1D4, 1Ds3, 5D3, or even a new 5D3. Again for the AF or higher MP.

Well off beginners? It's gonna be so easy for the salesman to up-sell them the 5D3 or recommend the D600.

Besides, any camera salesman would be called a clueless hack if they don't recommend the D600 first with the higher MP, pop up flash, better AF and faster burst. It'll be easier to sell than the 6D plus they can get more profit by selling the extra WiFi dongle for connectivity. Unless of course the 6D costs substantially lower than the D600.

I'm probably wrong but I think Canon screwed it up this time. The feature set of this camera just doesn't make sense. It lacks modern cross type AF, faster burst rate and 100% VF coverage for the more advance market but at the same time it also lacks beginners friendly features like pop up flash.

Pros won't be looking at a 5d3 for backup as the inferior focus won't be that bad in the unlikely scenario that they may have to actually use the backup while the main unit gets repaired.

Do you expect there would be no market for used 5D2's now that the 5D3 is out for the same reasons?


If this camera has no banding issues it may end up being a bigger seller than the 5D3. I would prefer the better focus but i think there are very many who would rather save the pennies over a focusing system that is not really bad and may still prove to be a vast improvement over the 5D2.

Time will show one way or the other.

Gyroscope wrote:
Boring. I already have 2 5D2 bodies. Neither this nor the 5D3 interest me as I have all the camera I need with the 5D2's and a 7D and image quality differences at low ISO's is getting so marginal these days. Now if it was a 36 or 45 mp body I might be interested!


If I would own 5D classic now - I wouldn't even get 5D2, same slow body with grandma AF + video!!!

Marcus Watts wrote:

We all thought the 5D2 was a sad upgrade when it hit the market yet it was the biggest selling full frame camera for years.


For two HUGE reasons:

#1 Most MP per dollar in a full frame DSLR. Closest competitor was the D700 and it had about HALF the MP.
#2 Video capability. The 5D2 actually helped develop a whole DSLR video industry when independent filmmakers started using the 5D2.

That made the 5D2 unquestionably a great value at the time. No one doubted it.

I mostly shoot static and slow moving subjects, often use MF and have wished for a slightly smaller body. This may be a good upgrade from my old 5D!

Rickuz wrote:
WesN wrote:
I’m hoping Canon has figured out how to get more DR in the new sensor, minimally just to compete with the better DR of the Sony/Nikon EXMOR sensor.
We all do.

But if they did find a way, do you think they'd put that tech into the 6D?

The 5D3 and 1DX crowd would cry rivers of blood.


Canon did not care about, when they brought 5D II with an IQ overcoming their own "pro" flaggships one. Most pros I know did not care either. They just bought the 5D II. I guess same would happen here.

It depends on what you shoot. If I would do sports, 6D would surely not be my choice. If I shoot portrait, people and weddings, I do not really need worlds best AF (while it would be nice to have). I need great IQ an AF System I can trust upon and would really welcome silent mode. If I use center AF and recompose (what I do since AF exists) I would welcome saving 1.4k $ and still getting a great tool, too.

If there is no big issue with this camera in any way, I am pretty sure it will go on with the great success of 5D II.

Ralph

Maybe there's a small audience for this, but I just get the feeling that anyone who gets this will just end up disappointed they didn't get a 5DIII. Probably the idea, but when there's Nikon tempting them with some lovely Sony sensors it's a dangerous game to play. Perhaps they have decided that their buyers are in too deep to change.

On a purely objective level, the 6d is a very fine camera. I think everyone is disappointed because it is so obviously crippled. The only way to stay ahead is to outcompete your own products. If you don't, someone else will. I don't know whether Canon is losing market share to Nikon or others, but it should be.

The 6d doesn't offer me nearly enough to want to upgrade my 5d2. They haven't released anything that makes me want to upgrade my 60d either. While I would love to upgrade to the 5d3 (or maybe a 1dIV), it's not in the cards for cost reasons. Thank goodness I love my Canon lenses.

Hopefully Canon don't put the same 11 point (Centre cross point) autofocus in the 70D! Imagine the 650D/700D having better autofocus (9 cross points) then the 70D!

What would make this look rational for me is notably improved IQ at ISO 400 and ISO 800. If ISO 800 were somehow, (miraculously?) equivalent to ISO 200 on my 5D II, I would buy this new body in a heartbeat. Not expecting anything like that to happen, however. Which means that it is probably not a rational choice for me.

More likely, the reasoning at Canon is that this is the low-dollar full-frame choice for people who choose Canon as an entry level FF, not because they like the body, but because they decided they prefer Canon glass. Fairly soon, that's where camera company competition is headed, with purchasing choices based far more on the lenses available, and their prices, than on bodies.

But before that happens, Canon at least needs to match the D800. I doubt that happens this year.

Sneakyracer wrote:
Marcus Watts wrote:

We all thought the 5D2 was a sad upgrade when it hit the market yet it was the biggest selling full frame camera for years.


For two HUGE reasons:

#1 Most MP per dollar in a full frame DSLR. Closest competitor was the D700 and it had about HALF the MP.
#2 Video capability. The 5D2 actually helped develop a whole DSLR video industry when independent filmmakers started using the 5D2.

That made the 5D2 unquestionably a great value at the time. No one doubted it.

Yes, that was when it was introduced. But it is still a very successfull sold camera today, 4 year after. We all know, it will be stopped and lets a gap. This is filled great with 6D very nice, isn´t it?
Some more modern features included, higher framerate, better AF (if and even if marginal), more compact, less weight, same price very soon. Imo this camera is mainly targeted to 30D, 40D, 50D, 60D owners who want to go FF, 5D and 5D II users who want to upgrade and 5D III/1D X users who want to get a cheaper backup body. And next to this: Newbees, who want to go FF without investing into the high price cameras. Today they can only choose between 6D and D600. More AF points are a salesargument, yes. Silent mode is the more impressive one imo. In camera GPS is another one.

Ralph

splathrop wrote:
What would make this look rational for me is notably improved IQ at ISO 400 and ISO 800. If ISO 800 were somehow, (miraculously?) equivalent to ISO 200 on my 5D II, I would buy this new body in a heartbeat. Not expecting anything like that to happen, however. Which means that it is probably not a rational choice for me.

More likely, the reasoning at Canon is that this is the low-dollar full-frame choice for people who choose Canon as an entry level FF, not because they like the body, but because they decided they prefer Canon glass. Fairly soon, that's where camera company competition is headed, with purchasing choices based far more on the lenses available, and their prices, than on bodies.

But before that happens, Canon at least needs to match the D800. I doubt that happens this year.

You might be right. If it would have happened this year, they would have introduced it, too.
But maybe they held this back for a big press event on photokina ?

Its a perfectly nice little camera. But it seems quite highly priced to really attract lots of crop people to FF, and doesn't appear to offer much to entice me to upgrade my 5D2/7D combo.

I would have preferred a Rebel FF at a much reduced cost, and so will probably wait to see what the 5D4 offers because by the time that comes out my 5D2 really will be pensionable. In the meantime its another year without buying any Canon kit.

Ralph Conway wrote:
...[

And if D600 offers "better AF" has to be found out first. Numbers do not make quality.

...

Ralph

You're right. Numbers don't make up quality, but I'd still rather have a cross type AF that isn't in the center of the frame than a Horizontal/Verticle line sensitive AF. Besides, I'm just disappointed than this camera has less advance AF than their lower class Rebel.

I don't know how far along Canon has come with their AF technology, but can a horizontal/vertical line sensitive AF in the 6D be more accurate than the cross type AF found in the latest Rebel? I kinda doubt it.

Marcus Watts wrote:
Do you expect there would be no market for used 5D2's now that the 5D3 is out for the same reasons?


Well, there ya go. One more reason not to buy the 6D. Get the 5D2 now while you can still get it new at cheaper price.

The big caveat is if this 6D retails at less than $2000, then I can see it being a big seller... Otherwise, no.

I'm underwhelmed but not surprised at all by the specs, what Canon giveth with one hand they taketh with the other. I'm just thankful they even released the 5D III with such a good AF system.

melcat wrote:
No buttons along the left - finally! Some of us have noses.
The buttons at top right each do only one thing - a huge improvement.
This looks like a good bread-and-butter camera to me.

I love the info button in the left to check histograms. I use my left eye, so nose not an issue for me!
Using the wheel or dial for the buttons on the top right was great. I see this as a negative change. I use flash exp compensation often.
Definitely bread and butter. But for new users, seems like Nikon has the better offering.

Think we need to wait and see how it performs; if the centre AF point is reliable, if the sensor is improved over the 5D2/5D3, and as its got MA, it could be a nice camera to have for families with some spare cash or youg children to capture.
For those of us with a 7D this could be a lower cost complemtent than the 5D3.
The real battle will be with Nikon tho', looking around at my non-gearhead photographer friends, they all percieve Nikon as a better quality brand, and they buy Nikon cameras.

Sneakyracer wrote:
The 6D is another clear example of Canon basically crippling a potentially very good camera by intentionally not including some features and specs that should and could very well be included and most likely are in their competitor's products. (namely the D600).


exactly why i jumped ship (10 years w/canon) and move to nikon. couldn't be happier. for my shooting needs . . . i wanted a full frame body under 2k that could spot meter with all focus points and focus with all focus points. sure makes shooting senior portraits easier. the whole focus and recompose is/was too frustrating for me. i really liked the 5d2 but . . . life is so much easier these days.

the only thing i miss about canon is the 85L & 200 f/1.8 and the good people in this forum.

grant

Ferrophot wrote:
The real battle will be with Nikon tho', looking around at my non-gearhead photographer friends, they all percieve Nikon as a better quality brand, and they buy Nikon cameras.

Indeed. While the 6D will definitely do alright in the market, I just don't see it having the ability to lure Nikon's APS-C users away from their brand. Some people here might say "Who cares?" or "So what?", but they should realise that it's what Canon wants and if they can't do it then they haven't succeeded with this camera.