Venue rules
/forum/topic/1148597/4

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TRReichman
Registered: Jan 22, 2009
Total Posts: 2960
Country: United States

Actually that's my bad, I meant to type "NOT necessarily" - apologies.


- trr



marti.g3
Registered: Oct 04, 2011
Total Posts: 2034
Country: United States

Eric_M_Klein wrote:
I got the impression that this is an exclusive location. If I am wrong I am sorry. What I am trying to say is clients who have events at the Four Seasons expect more than clients at the Hilton or clients who have events at the Holiday Inn. I would not go overboard for a back yard wedding or even a typical country club, but if I wanted to impress the sales manager at the Ritz Carlton I would do things that are more than managers at the Ritz Carlton expect. Would you rather book events for clients and get referrals from customers who can afford to pay your twice your going rate and is that worth spending $300 dollars to rent a D4 and a 200mm F2 or 300mm F2.8, $150 for an assistant, and $100 for a tux to impress the manager who is in a position to refer you to other customers?. I'm not saying it is right, but in some places, what kind of car you drive, where you live, and even what kind of camera you use means something to them.


I have worked weddings at the Ritz, at the Montage and at the Langham. I wore my usual long sleeve black shirt and slacks. The band didn't wear tuxes, the videographer didn't wear a tux, the DJ wasn't wearing a tux.......the only one's wearing tuxes were the waiters...oh wait, they were only wearing bowties and black vests........gee, why weren't they wearing tuxes ?

If one thinks that wearing a tux will open the flood gates to infinite wealth by high end vendors, then I suggest you never leave the house without your tux on. After all, you never get a second chance to make a first impression. You wouldn't want to be caught getting your car serviced or buying goods at Macy's because you never know who might be watching.

"Oh hey, look, there's Johnny, that high end wedding photographer"....." Gee, he isn't wearing a tux, I was going to hire him, but now i'm not, too bad"......."that must mean he's not that good a photographer is he's not wearing a tux"..........



TTLKurtis
Registered: Jan 31, 2006
Total Posts: 9739
Country: United States

TRReichman wrote:
Eric_M_Klein wrote:
Somebody once said, "You never have a second chance to make a first impression." Look at this as a marketing opportunity and try an build a relationship with the sales manager. By making a good impression, and building goodwill you should get referrals to clients that value the black tie look. Try and become a preferred vendor. Ask to leave a high end album. I would buy or rent a black tuxedo for the event and hire an assistant to help you carry your gear, second camera, and move your lighting. Make sure the assistant wears a black suit or a rented tux. I would also rent the top of the line equipment that your manufacturer offers that you do not own. If you shoot Nikon then you should rent a D4 and D800e, Canon EOS 1D-X etc.. Look for ways to exceed with your service. These are customers who drive high end cars and they will notice if you shoot with pro-sumer equipment. I shoot with a D4 and 200mm F2, and it gets the right kind of attention. These kind of customers will respect you more if you work smart rather than work hard.


Funny, we're shooting a wedding this year which will be the first rooftop/terrace wedding at this particular hotel. It is at night, and the father is a photography enthusiast. He asked specifically if we were shooting d4's at his daughter's wedding to manage the low-light. I haven't found the pressure to have high-end gear for most of my weddings (i'm testing the OM-D for weddings at the moment) but it has come up in limited situations. Still, outside of very limited circumstances I don't plan on marketing myself through gear.

- trr


Did you tell him that the D3S is better for low-light?



tonyhart
Registered: Jan 25, 2008
Total Posts: 2294
Country: United Kingdom

TTLKurtis wrote:
TRReichman wrote:
Eric_M_Klein wrote:
Somebody once said, "You never have a second chance to make a first impression." Look at this as a marketing opportunity and try an build a relationship with the sales manager. By making a good impression, and building goodwill you should get referrals to clients that value the black tie look. Try and become a preferred vendor. Ask to leave a high end album. I would buy or rent a black tuxedo for the event and hire an assistant to help you carry your gear, second camera, and move your lighting. Make sure the assistant wears a black suit or a rented tux. I would also rent the top of the line equipment that your manufacturer offers that you do not own. If you shoot Nikon then you should rent a D4 and D800e, Canon EOS 1D-X etc.. Look for ways to exceed with your service. These are customers who drive high end cars and they will notice if you shoot with pro-sumer equipment. I shoot with a D4 and 200mm F2, and it gets the right kind of attention. These kind of customers will respect you more if you work smart rather than work hard.


Funny, we're shooting a wedding this year which will be the first rooftop/terrace wedding at this particular hotel. It is at night, and the father is a photography enthusiast. He asked specifically if we were shooting d4's at his daughter's wedding to manage the low-light. I haven't found the pressure to have high-end gear for most of my weddings (i'm testing the OM-D for weddings at the moment) but it has come up in limited situations. Still, outside of very limited circumstances I don't plan on marketing myself through gear.

- trr


Did you tell him that the D3S is better for low-light?


My thoughts exactly Kurtis.



Eric_M_Klein
Registered: Dec 26, 2011
Total Posts: 81
Country: United States

For the record I have a D3s as a backup and I got a really good deal on a used D4. I can likely sell it in 2 years for what I paid for it, and any money generated will be gravy. I had a D700 as a backup, now my wife second shoots with it. I shoot weddings and events just to pay for my equipment and to give my wife some spending money. I am fortunate to have a job to cover my other bills. I usually shoot weddings with a black shirt, tie, slacks and dress shoes. I have not ever worn a tux to shoot a wedding, noone has ever asked me to, but it seems that this venue, its managers, it's customers, and probubly it's guests want to be dressed to a higher standard.
Talk to them, if they do not care that you are dressed smart casually, wear smart casual. Maybe they just don't want you showing up in Jeans and a Harly Davisdon tshirt. If they insist on your wearing a suit, you should do that.

In the 80's I assisted at a wedding in Boston where the customer was a million dollar a year surgeon, his newphew was a famous rock star, and he rented out a whole floor in the most exclusive hotel in Boston. I was asked to wear a tux because the company I worked for wanted all their emplyees to wear a tux to make a good impression. I know things are more casual now, but if the event location values wearing a jacket, and you show up in a tux, and the customer your client lets everyone in the sales office know how you exceeded her and their standard by wearing a tux, and all the clients friends see you wearing a tux and are impressed, just maybe you can get some referred business from the event. If disapointing the event location is not important to you, wear whatever is comfortable. It is usually a long shot to get referrals from event locations anyway.



TRReichman
Registered: Jan 22, 2009
Total Posts: 2960
Country: United States

TTLKurtis wrote:
Did you tell him that the D3S is better for low-light?


No. I haven't tested them, but from what I've read and from what friends who went from the d3s to the d4 have told me you're probably right. However, this guy is jacked about it, and is one of the only clients we've had in 2 years that has referenced buying huge wall art for his home. Since the wedding is happening outside, at night, with the entire Atlanta city skyline in the background I have a feeling that if we show up the morning of the wedding and show him the d4 we bought (read- rented) specifically for his daughter's wedding and shoot that image with that camera I'm going to net out with an additional 4 figures in my pocket. I'm getting paid enough that it is worth the gamble in this case. I would almost never recommend trying to let your gear do the talking. We did get quite a bit of attention for shooting Leica at a wedding, but it wasn't the kind of attention we wanted.

- trr



TRReichman
Registered: Jan 22, 2009
Total Posts: 2960
Country: United States

marti.g3 wrote:
And if you exist in the type of world where you are always living to impress others, well, that says it all. Shooting weddings in tuxes......really......would that be pink or blue ruffles ?


2 points

1. This may just be my market, but I have noticed that there is a bit of a dress code regarding vendors in tuxes. Most of the weddings we work are black tie (the kind where the guest and bridal party own their tuxes, they don't rent) and all of the vendors wear very professional, sedate, black or charcoal suits. They are very nice suits, but no one wears a tux. I don't know if it is like that everywhere, but we've noticed it here. It seems doubly questionable to wear a disheveled tux than to not wear one at all.

2. It might sound great on a t-shirt to say that you aren't interested in impressing people but it is kind of silly. Every on the planet, save for a few clinical sociopaths, care what other people think of them. We work in a communicative medium where the point is to create something that someone else sees. We all own businesses and we want people to be impressed with the work or service we provide and hire us. To act like we're above that is ridiculous. When you get on a forum and say that you don't care about impressing people, you're just trying to make a certain impression on the people reading, or else you'd keep it to yourself. I get your point, but I don't see why it is reprehensible to admit to wanting clients, vendors and other people vested in getting me more business and supporting my livelihood to be impressed with the work I do. That's kind of the point.


- trr



marti.g3
Registered: Oct 04, 2011
Total Posts: 2034
Country: United States

TRReichman wrote:
marti.g3 wrote:
And if you exist in the type of world where you are always living to impress others, well, that says it all. Shooting weddings in tuxes......really......would that be pink or blue ruffles ?


2 points

1. This may just be my market, but I have noticed that there is a bit of a dress code regarding vendors in tuxes. Most of the weddings we work are black tie (the kind where the guest and bridal party own their tuxes, they don't rent) and all of the vendors wear very professional, sedate, black or charcoal suits. They are very nice suits, but no one wears a tux. I don't know if it is like that everywhere, but we've noticed it here. It seems doubly questionable to wear a disheveled tux than to not wear one at all.

2. It might sound great on a t-shirt to say that you aren't interested in impressing people but it is kind of silly. Every on the planet, save for a few clinical sociopaths, care what other people think of them. We work in a communicative medium where the point is to create something that someone else sees. We all own businesses and we want people to be impressed with the work or service we provide and hire us. To act like we're above that is ridiculous. When you get on a forum and say that you don't care about impressing people, you're just trying to make a certain impression on the people reading, or else you'd keep it to yourself. I get your point, but I don't see why it is reprehensible to admit to wanting clients, vendors and other people vested in getting me more business and supporting my livelihood to be impressed with the work I do. That's kind of the point.


- trr


Nothing wrong with wanting to impress other people.And I totally disagree with you that most people care what others think of them. Younger people who are making their bones in life generally do, but mature adults who are secure in their life and direction usually don't.

Of course we have to be presentable when working. But to say that wearing a "jacket" is going to make or break one's career or life is ridiculous.

As i said earlier, if one is working in the black tie tux market, then of course it would behoove them to wear a tux if that is what is required. But to do it when it's not required only to "maybe" impress someone is...........well, a personal issue.

I don't see how a "jacket" makes your "work" any better. It may make YOU look better, but it doesn't improve your "work".

"hey Jim, bring that jack hammer over her"......."ok bob, but first let me adjust my bowtie, a straight one makes my work look better"............that's my point.



TTLKurtis
Registered: Jan 31, 2006
Total Posts: 9739
Country: United States

marti... aren't you always complaining about having budget clients? clearly you do not understand the mindset of those with more money...



Eric_M_Klein
Registered: Dec 26, 2011
Total Posts: 81
Country: United States

Your customer booked you so they like you and like your work, you have already done the hard work to impress them. My point was to dress to impress the venue and get referred business from the venue. Renting or purchasing a black tux that looks like a suit is an alternative to purchasing a Brooks Brothers suit. A quality dark suit or a rented tux if you do not have one (Think James Bond not Austin Powers) will be better than dress casual if the venue values that you wear black tie.



Eric_M_Klein
Registered: Dec 26, 2011
Total Posts: 81
Country: United States

Your customer booked you so they like you and like your work, you have already done the hard work to impress them. My point was to dress to impress the venue and get referred business from the venue. Renting or purchasing a black tux that looks like a suit is an alternative to purchasing a Brooks Brothers suit. A quality dark suit or a rented tux if you do not have one (Think James Bond not Austin Powers) will be better than dress casual if the venue values that you wear black tie.



TRReichman
Registered: Jan 22, 2009
Total Posts: 2960
Country: United States

marti.g3 wrote:
As i said earlier, if one is working in the black tie tux market, then of course it would behoove them to wear a tux if that is what is required. But to do it when it's not required only to "maybe" impress someone is...........well, a personal issue.


I'm sure it feels good to tell someone on the internet that they have personal issues. Some people do more than is required as a matter of course, and that's how they consistently book great work. To get to a high level you have to start acting like you belong there, and then you get there and have to maintain that. The best way to get there is with the support of the folks that are already there. If they can execute and look good doing it the people they associate with can operate at the same high standards without excuses. You don't get to make excuses at the high end, you kick ass and nothing upsets you.

Again, this is all just my opinion, but I deliberately moved from the middle market to the higher end and stuff like this was pretty instrumental.

marti.g3 wrote:I don't see how a "jacket" makes your "work" any better. It may make YOU look better, but it doesn't improve your "work".

My "work" has everything to do with my service, brand, value proposition, etc. My brand has been built on delivering and making it look effortless. So a jacket is another symbol of why people hire me - I can do it, look good, be respectful of the event and look like I belong and do it without complaints or excuses. So yes, it has absolutely everything to do with my "work." I think it is incredibly naive to think that the "work" or the photography is all that matters. You don't get to offer all of your excuses most of the time, people just make assumptions about why you aren't measuring up.

marti.g3 wrote:"hey Jim, bring that jack hammer over her"......."ok bob, but first let me adjust my bowtie, a straight one makes my work look better"............that's my point.

I don't really market myself as a jackhammerer. I tend to model after higher-level professionals. Whatever works man.

- trr



D. Diggler
Registered: Dec 27, 2011
Total Posts: 5416
Country: United States

TRReichman wrote:
upmarket is not necessarily what everyone is looking for, though the competition is far less brutal, the payoff far sweeter, and the clients far less demanding and far more respectful


Sounds pretty damn good! I want that.



Iris Chrome
Registered: Jul 11, 2012
Total Posts: 28
Country: United States

Hello, I normally tend to lurk and not post much here on FM however this topic for some reason is making me come out of my cocoon. I only read up to page 3 so forgive me if someone said this already but how many of you get frustrated when Nikon/Canon (or your camera brand of choice) don't deliver on their products either because of perceived missing features or because of their inability (or unwillingness) to incorporate their customers' needs and wants in their latest products? How many get mad? How many shrug it off? And how many switch brands? I don't think the answers to these questions really matter much here. What does matter, IMO, is how many of you would still recommend these brands after said shortcomings?

Granted, there are only a handful of camera companies around which doesn't lend to a fair comparison but the point I'm trying to make is that in the same way that you get frustrated when your camera company does not listen to you (the pro photographer as a collective), expect your clients to be frustrated in the same way when you don't listen to them either. Your current assignment may not be in any immediate danger but your future recommendations may not be so stellar.

Of course, if you don't care about the future recommendations from that couple then maybe shooting for that type of clientele isn't for you.



D. Diggler
Registered: Dec 27, 2011
Total Posts: 5416
Country: United States

TTLKurtis wrote:
He asked specifically if we were shooting d4's at his daughter's wedding

Did you tell him that the D3S is better for low-light?


I've compared some images closely and that's not what I've seen.

I don't personally shoot those cameras but the consensus (on online forums) of those who've shot both seems to be that the D4 is better in low light.



TAGfan
Registered: Jan 09, 2010
Total Posts: 1582
Country: United States

So after worrying about this - the wedding was last weekend.

I had made a deal with the place to wear a vest and not have to wear the jacket. Apparently, the video guy (calling him a videographer would imply some sort of talent) must have made a similar deal, because he showed up in a short sleeve untucked button up, no tie, no jacket.

So much for 'black tie' - which is why I was skeptical in the first place



TTLKurtis
Registered: Jan 31, 2006
Total Posts: 9739
Country: United States

D. Diggler wrote:
TTLKurtis wrote:
He asked specifically if we were shooting d4's at his daughter's wedding

Did you tell him that the D3S is better for low-light?


I've compared some images closely and that's not what I've seen.

I don't personally shoot those cameras but the consensus (on online forums) of those who've shot both seems to be that the D4 is better in low light.


The consensus, according to reviews, is that the D3S is better low-light. Perhaps marginally so, but the point was its not a reason to upgrade to D4. In fact I know no compelling reason to upgrade in light of the negatives.



amonline
Registered: Jul 16, 2006
Total Posts: 6656
Country: United States

TAGfan wrote:
So after worrying about this - the wedding was last weekend.

I had made a deal with the place to wear a vest and not have to wear the jacket. Apparently, the video guy (calling him a videographer would imply some sort of talent) must have made a similar deal, because he showed up in a short sleeve untucked button up, no tie, no jacket.

So much for 'black tie' - which is why I was skeptical in the first place


Seems normal.



Ian Ivey
Registered: Mar 21, 2011
Total Posts: 1323
Country: United States

the video guy (calling him a videographer would imply some sort of talent) ... showed up in a short sleeve untucked button up, no tie, no jacket.

Oh, come on, Scott. That's not even half the story. Tell them about the light.



marti.g3
Registered: Oct 04, 2011
Total Posts: 2034
Country: United States

TRReichman wrote:
marti.g3 wrote:
As i said earlier, if one is working in the black tie tux market, then of course it would behoove them to wear a tux if that is what is required. But to do it when it's not required only to "maybe" impress someone is...........well, a personal issue.


I'm sure it feels good to tell someone on the internet that they have personal issues. Some people do more than is required as a matter of course, and that's how they consistently book great work. To get to a high level you have to start acting like you belong there, and then you get there and have to maintain that. The best way to get there is with the support of the folks that are already there. If they can execute and look good doing it the people they associate with can operate at the same high standards without excuses. You don't get to make excuses at the high end, you kick ass and nothing upsets you.

Again, this is all just my opinion, but I deliberately moved from the middle market to the higher end and stuff like this was pretty instrumental.

marti.g3 wrote:I don't see how a "jacket" makes your "work" any better. It may make YOU look better, but it doesn't improve your "work".

My "work" has everything to do with my service, brand, value proposition, etc. My brand has been built on delivering and making it look effortless. So a jacket is another symbol of why people hire me - I can do it, look good, be respectful of the event and look like I belong and do it without complaints or excuses. So yes, it has absolutely everything to do with my "work." I think it is incredibly naive to think that the "work" or the photography is all that matters. You don't get to offer all of your excuses most of the time, people just make assumptions about why you aren't measuring up.

marti.g3 wrote:"hey Jim, bring that jack hammer over her"......."ok bob, but first let me adjust my bowtie, a straight one makes my work look better"............that's my point.

I don't really market myself as a jackhammerer. I tend to model after higher-level professionals. Whatever works man.

- trr


Uh huh...yeah....right....some people are just legends in their own minds. Not saying you are, but some people are.



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