sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
To be honest, I have never really understood the mindset of people who think that treating a camera as if it is simple is as good as having a simple camera. It is like trying to have a Bauhaus experience in a chateau full of Rococo furniture. Not the same.

disagree, i've used genuinely simple cameras that were terribly designed for simple use and complex cameras that were excellently designed for simple use. for me, the options you don't use aren't important, it's how well implemented the options you do use are.

I am of course hoping for a simple camera which is well designed...

and i would like to ride a unicorn to work for my daily commute...

Simple, well designed cameras exist... but not from Sony.

philip_pj wrote:
I get your view on Sony carsten, but really once you know their approach you can ignore the non-essentials and set them up quickly. Nothing gets in the way pretty much. But you have already copped some flack, I see, lol.

Yes, I am good at that

I get that a camera which you can set up once and just use is a big step up from the old way. I have that with my E-PL3, for example, and I enjoy that. But it pales compared to the pure experience of using a Leica M8, which I owned for about 5 years. There is nothing to get in the way on that camera. The menu was a single page, maybe three screens long. The Set button led to a screen with 7-8 items, all visible, nothing more, which would let you set anything you might want to change regularly, such as ISO. There were no Direct Print or Info buttons etc., and all that crap that I never use anyway was simply not present. It really lets you concentrate on shooting, instead of wondering if your 4-year old daughter has messed up your AF tracking setting, or whatever.

A digital OM2 would be my perfect camera. Or maybe a digital OM4. I can probably list everything I would want to set on such a camera, and have it not spill over one screenful. It is unbelievable the sheer number of crap choices that we are given these days.

The world's best camera is the one which you own 5 years? Why am I not surprised?

I lack the experience of many here, but I find the NEX 5n to be very simple operationally. I can happily use the camera for days without ever digging into the menus. That's not to say that a few more dedicated buttons and dials would not be welcome.

It is really difficult to divine SONY's intention with respect to lenses. I half suspect they left lucrative gaps in the range in order to try and attract other vendors to the e-mount system. Sigma joined the fun with the 30mm/2.8 and Zeiss with the 24/1.8, while SONY have only just recently released their own 35 and 50mm primes. It's possible that Zeiss were slow to follow up because they were trying to extricate themselves from prior commitments to SONY, in order to be free to release entirely on their own terms.

I do feel that SONY have managed to do something very clever in introducing a new mount during a period of transition of many consumers from mirrored to mirrorless cameras. It's a rare opportunity, given the longevity of the dominant system mounts like EF and F.

As for the RX1, it looks like a great camera!!

carstenw wrote:
sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
To be honest, I have never really understood the mindset of people who think that treating a camera as if it is simple is as good as having a simple camera. It is like trying to have a Bauhaus experience in a chateau full of Rococo furniture. Not the same.

disagree, i've used genuinely simple cameras that were terribly designed for simple use and complex cameras that were excellently designed for simple use. for me, the options you don't use aren't important, it's how well implemented the options you do use are.

I am of course hoping for a simple camera which is well designed...

and i would like to ride a unicorn to work for my daily commute...

Simple, well designed cameras exist... but not from Sony.

Dunno, but I think A900 was simple and well designed..

carstenw wrote:
Simple, well designed cameras exist... but not from Sony.

i simply can't agree here and it sounds to me like you just don't like sony rather than that you've seriously looked at the camera and controls (surely you can't think your d800 has simpler more intuitive controls?). i find your beloved m8 to be quite kludgy in use too, way harder to change something basic and important like iso than most cameras including the rx1. i know the m9 mostly fixed this but there are lots of other usability flaws in the m8/9 from my perspective. in use my nex-7 requires much fewer clicks than the m8/9. the m6 was well designed and simple, digital leicas have failed in this area by a fairly large margin to my eyes.

there are lots of reasons to automatically dismiss the rx1 – fixed focal length, wrong focal length for you, kludgy viewfinder add-ons, no flip up lcd, etc – saying it has to busy an interface that will get in the way of shooting just sounds like you don't want to give it a chance. having spent some time examining the controls, this looks much better to me for a simple shooting experience than anything i've seen in a long time.

tulaev wrote:
The world's best camera is the one which you own 5 years? Why am I not surprised?

I don't understand your thinking. I didn't say "the world's best camera", I said it was simple to operate and well designed. I will stand by that, but I sold it, because the crop factor, old sensor, IR leakage and other issues meant that I couldn't get from it what I wanted.

sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
Simple, well designed cameras exist... but not from Sony.

i simply can't agree here and it sounds to me like you just don't like sony rather than that you've seriously looked at the camera and controls (surely you can't think your d800 has simpler more intuitive controls?).

Well, neither is the case. I generally quite like Sony cameras (except I am not so keen on the NEXen), and I don't think the D800 is simple to operate. The D800 is not my ideal camera, it is simply what I currently shoot, and it comes closer than others to what I want.

i know the m9 mostly fixed this but there are lots of other usability flaws in the m8/9 from my perspective.

IMO there is nothing wrong with the M9 which more buttons and a more complex menu would fix (except maybe a dedicated live view button with zoom to 100% a-la Nikon). The problems are elsewhere, such as the antiquated rangefinder mechanism and lack of live view, but this is not what I am talking about.

there are lots of reasons to automatically dismiss the rx1 – fixed focal length, wrong focal length for you, kludgy viewfinder add-ons, no flip up lcd, etc – saying it has to busy an interface that will get in the way of shooting just sounds like you don't want to give it a chance. having spent some time examining the controls, this looks much better to me for a simple shooting experience than anything i've seen in a long time.

I am not saying that it has too busy an interface which gets in the way, you need to read what I write more carefully. I am saying that the size alone is not enough to convince me, and the price is too high for me to buy it just out of curiousity.

What I am also saying that IF Sony had designed it with a very minimal interface, more traditional (complete focus scale with hard end stops, perhaps like the Olympus 12/2, few "digital" buttons, tiny menu, much closer to the M9), then I might have bought it purely out of love of minimalist design.

As it is, it is just another compact digital camera, with the special bits being FF sensor, high price, small size, low weight and a very good fixed Zeiss lens. A smaller D800 with less MP and a fixed lens, if you will. Not enough for me. I have all of those already, except the small size/weight and fixed lens, i.e. the improvements are mostly not in areas I care about. Maybe in the future I will change my mind, but today it is for me a curiousity. I will watch this space from the sidelines.

carstenw wrote:
IMO there is nothing wrong with the M9 which more buttons and a more complex menu would fix (except maybe a dedicated live view button with zoom to 100% a-la Nikon). The problems are elsewhere, such as the antiquated rangefinder mechanism and lack of live view, but this is not what I am talking about.

who said anything about adding buttons or anything at all about the rangefinder? m8 interface is poor to me because it's more difficult to do basic things (like change iso as i mentioned before) and because the buttons are poorly placed for quick operation. well, that stupid bottom plate really bugs me too...

carstenw wrote:
I am not saying that it has too busy an interface which gets in the way, you need to read what I write more carefully. I am saying that the size alone is not enough to convince me, and the price is too high for me to buy it just out of curiousity.

What I am also saying that IF Sony had designed it with a very minimal interface, more traditional (complete focus scale with hard end stops, perhaps like the Olympus 12/2, few "digital" buttons, tiny menu, much closer to the M9), then I might have bought it purely out of love of minimalist design.

As it is, it is just another compact digital camera, with the special bits being FF sensor, high price, small size, low weight and a very good fixed Zeiss lens. A smaller D800 with less MP and a fixed lens, if you will. Not enough for me. I have all of those already, except the small size/weight and fixed lens, i.e. the improvements are mostly not in areas I care about. Maybe in the future I will change my mind, but today it is for me a curiousity. I will watch this space from the sidelines.

i'm not saying you should buy it, i'm just saying your comments about the interface seem strange to me. it looks to me like sony did a very good job arranging the camera for minimalist controls. the big difference between them and leica is they let you choose which buttons do what (which i for one prefer). i'm sure the leica probably has simpler menus (though i've heard the rx1 is much better than the NEX), but for me a simple cameras means no using the menus at all. sony typically makes that possible whereas leica's typically don't.

Navyasw02, keep the images coming!
The IQ of this camera shown in some of your shots is excellent and it is getting real hard for me to not hit the preorder button!

carstenw wrote:
Right. I should make one note: simplicity I do find very attractive, and if this camera had pure and simple operation like an M9, it would be a lot more interesting to me. However, Sony is not about simplicity (other than the fixed lens), and haven't been for decades now, and I know that I would get a camera with many buttons and a menu system with several hundred items, so at this point I lose interest again.

You may not be aware of this but the menu system on the RX1 is patterned after the Alpha, not NEX, cameras and is - apparently - much simplified and has been received well so far by reviewers and owners. The dumbed down NEX interface is gone; now a simple hierarchical menu list has taken its place. In addition, almost every button can be redefined to suit an individual photographer's preference.

As for "many" buttons, given it is an autofocus / manual focus camera, it'll need at least one extra control to select focus mode. The Leica M9 has 12 controls by my reckoning, the new M typ-240 has 14, and the Sony RX1 has 15.

In the case of the Sony, you can redefine the Movie button or disable it completely. Now it has the same number of controls as the new M.

Personally I don't want too few control points just like I don't want too many. One of the flaws of the NEX-5N from my perspective was that it had too few control points (or too few re-definable control points) which forced one to dive into menus more often, although it like many cameras could be configured to minimize menu diving. As almost every control is re-definable on the Sony RX1, it should be possible to tune the operation of the camera to ones preferences.

It looks as if Sony is improving their game in this regard. Proof will be in the using.

Sony RX1
Top deck (4) - Shutter button with integrated on-off switch, Exposure Compensation Dial, Custom Button, Mode dial
Back (9) - Shutter speed dial, Flash, Play, AEL, Fn, Menu, Delete, Setting Dial, OK
Side (1) - Movie
Front (1) - Manual focus, Auto Focus, Direct Manual Focus selector switch

Leica M9
Top deck (2) - Shutter button with integrated on-off switch | picture mode (single, continuous, self-timer), Shutter speed dial
Front (2) - Field selector, lens release
Back (8) - Play, Delete, ISO, Info, Set, Setting Dial (may be assigned as Exp Comp), 4 way direction buttons, Menu

Leica M typ-240
Top deck (3) - Shutter speed/A mode, Shutter button with integrated on-off switch | picture mode, Movie
Front (2?) - lens release, and another I don't know the function of
Back (9) - Live View, Play, Delete, ISO, Menu, Set, Setting Dial, Info|OK, Control Wheel

Nikon D800
Top|Front|Back|Side - lots. you don't really think I'm going to count them all, do you?










Images thanks to CameraSize.com - http://j.mp/SgOaNz

sebboh wrote:
carstenw wrote:
IMO there is nothing wrong with the M9 which more buttons and a more complex menu would fix (except maybe a dedicated live view button with zoom to 100% a-la Nikon). The problems are elsewhere, such as the antiquated rangefinder mechanism and lack of live view, but this is not what I am talking about.

who said anything about adding buttons or anything at all about the rangefinder? m8 interface is poor to me because it's more difficult to do basic things (like change iso as i mentioned before) and because the buttons are poorly placed for quick operation. well, that stupid bottom plate really bugs me too...

carstenw wrote:
I am not saying that it has too busy an interface which gets in the way, you need to read what I write more carefully. I am saying that the size alone is not enough to convince me, and the price is too high for me to buy it just out of curiousity.

What I am also saying that IF Sony had designed it with a very minimal interface, more traditional (complete focus scale with hard end stops, perhaps like the Olympus 12/2, few "digital" buttons, tiny menu, much closer to the M9), then I might have bought it purely out of love of minimalist design.

As it is, it is just another compact digital camera, with the special bits being FF sensor, high price, small size, low weight and a very good fixed Zeiss lens. A smaller D800 with less MP and a fixed lens, if you will. Not enough for me. I have all of those already, except the small size/weight and fixed lens, i.e. the improvements are mostly not in areas I care about. Maybe in the future I will change my mind, but today it is for me a curiousity. I will watch this space from the sidelines.

i'm not saying you should buy it, i'm just saying your comments about the interface seem strange to me. it looks to me like sony did a very good job arranging the camera for minimalist controls. the big difference between them and leica is they let you choose which buttons do what (which i for one prefer). i'm sure the leica probably has simpler menus (though i've heard the rx1 is much better than the NEX), but for me a simple cameras means no using the menus at all. sony typically makes that possible whereas leica's typically don't.

Eeh, did u ever use a leica digital M? I shoot them for days without using the menu. Apenture is on the lens, shutterspeed on top and iso has it own button (M9) or is under a combined button (M8). Only real reason to use the menu is to format the SD card.

I have a sony nex to, and I think its a disaster. Sure u can arrange the buttons to your liking, but to find out how to do so it took me quite some time.
Bought a remote control for the NEX, the shop assistance and I were looking for 30 minutes to find out how it worked. Who in earth puts it under the drive modus...
With the leica I just screw in the release cord....

Nevertheless I really like the NEX, and can use it almost blind folded now. But its not at all as intuitive as the leica's.

michaelwatkins wrote:
carstenw wrote:
Right. I should make one note: simplicity I do find very attractive, and if this camera had pure and simple operation like an M9, it would be a lot more interesting to me. However, Sony is not about simplicity (other than the fixed lens), and haven't been for decades now, and I know that I would get a camera with many buttons and a menu system with several hundred items, so at this point I lose interest again.

You may not be aware of this but the menu system on the RX1 is patterned after the Alpha, not NEX, cameras and is - apparently - much simplified and has been received well so far by reviewers and owners. The dumbed down NEX interface is gone; now a simple hierarchical menu list has taken its place. In addition, almost every button can be redefined to suit an individual photographer's preference.

As for "many" buttons, given it is an autofocus / manual focus camera, it'll need at least one extra control to select focus mode. The Leica M9 has 12 controls by my reckoning, the new M typ-240 has 14, and the Sony RX1 has 15.

In the case of the Sony, you can redefine the Movie button or disable it completely. Now it has the same number of controls as the new M.

Personally I don't want too few control points just like I don't want too many. One of the flaws of the NEX-5N from my perspective was that it had too few control points (or too few re-definable control points) which forced one to dive into menus more often, although it like many cameras could be configured to minimize menu diving. As almost every control is re-definable on the Sony RX1, it should be possible to tune the operation of the camera to ones preferences.

It looks as if Sony is improving their game in this regard. Proof will be in the using.

Sony RX1
Top deck (4) - Shutter button with integrated on-off switch, Exposure Compensation Dial, Custom Button, Mode dial
Back (9) - Shutter speed dial, Flash, Play, AEL, Fn, Menu, Delete, Setting Dial, OK
Side (1) - Movie
Front (1) - Manual focus, Auto Focus, Direct Manual Focus selector switch

Leica M9
Top deck (2) - Shutter button with integrated on-off switch | picture mode (single, continuous, self-timer), Shutter speed dial
Front (2) - Field selector, lens release
Back (8) - Play, Delete, ISO, Info, Set, Setting Dial (may be assigned as Exp Comp), 4 way direction buttons, Menu

Leica M typ-240
Top deck (3) - Shutter speed/A mode, Shutter button with integrated on-off switch | picture mode, Movie
Front (2?) - lens release, and another I don't know the function of
Back (9) - Live View, Play, Delete, ISO, Menu, Set, Setting Dial, Info|OK, Control Wheel

Nikon D800
Top|Front|Back|Side - lots. you don't really think I'm going to count them all, do you?

edit/ Lots of pictures/



Counting the lens release button and frame line selector isn't realy fair I think.
The button at the front of the new M is for live view.

Bijltje wrote:
Eeh, did u ever use a leica digital M? I shoot them for days without using the menu. Apenture is on the lens, shutterspeed on top and iso has it own button (M9) or is under a combined button (M8). Only real reason to use the menu is to format the SD card.

I have a sony nex to, and I think its a disaster. Sure u can arrange the buttons to your liking, but to find out how to do so it took me quite some time.
Bought a remote control for the NEX, the shop assistance and I were looking for 30 minutes to find out how it worked. Who in earth puts it under the drive modus...
With the leica I just screw in the release cord....

Nevertheless I really like the NEX, and can use it almost blind folded now. But its not at all as intuitive as the leica's.

i've only played with other peoples m's not owned one. i stated the iso issue was the m8 only. your statement about controls applies equally to the NEX-7 and rx1 - aperture is on the lens (or a dial if you shoot autofocus lenses on the NEX), there is a shutter speed dial, and there is an iso dial. only reason to use the menu is to format the SD card. unless of course you want to use silly features that have been invented since digital and are completely unnecessary.

agreed about remote control on the NEX, looks like the rx1 works the same as the leica though.

as far as setting up the nex goes, it took me 5 minutes and i've never opened the manual, but the menus are really stupid. the rx1 mercifully has sony alpha menus rather than NEX ones.

Daylight focus demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh7CjHzv78o
Night time autofocus demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKCXtvwi-D0

Bijltje wrote:
Counting the lens release button and frame line selector isn't realy fair I think.
The button at the front of the new M is for live view.

Sure it's fair, because I took the time to count, I get to decide what goes in and out!

Lens release... ok, you got me there. But it is a button, one the Sony doesn't require.

In the case of the frame line selector, this has a direct impact on composition. A live view through the finder (LCD or external) camera like the RX1, or the new M fitted with an external finder, doesn't need that frame line selector - it is superfluous (although some M9 owners may disagree with Leica on that).

The point I wanted to make is that all three cameras - the RX1, M9, M - have a similar level of button complexity. Configured similarly to how one might shoot a digital M, changes are you'd only visit the menu to format SD cards too. My most frequent use of the menu in the GXR/M is card formatting too.

The NEX interface is horrible; the RX1 / RX100 interface looks much saner by comparison.

PS: If that unlabelled button on the front is for live-view selection, why does the new M have a LV button on the front and back? That seems like an uncharacteristic duplication.

PSPS: The RX1 has a mechanical cable shutter release fitting in the shutter button.

sebboh wrote:
i've only played with other peoples m's not owned one. i stated the iso issue was the m8 only. your statement about controls applies equally to the NEX-7 and rx1 - aperture is on the lens (or a dial if you shoot autofocus lenses on the NEX), there is a shutter speed dial, and there is an iso dial. only reason to use the menu is to format the SD card. unless of course you want to use silly features that have been invented since digital and are completely unnecessary.

agreed about remote control on the NEX, looks like the rx1 works the same as the leica though.

as far as setting up the nex goes, it took me 5 minutes and i've never opened the manual, but the menus are really stupid. the rx1 mercifully has sony alpha menus rather than NEX ones.

U mean apenture on the lens when using a MF lens? Didn't think about that

Thinking about it I hardly used the menu of my canon dslr either. ISO went with a button on top, apenture and shutterspeed with their own buttons. So It might not be the best way to explane.

But I do recognize what Carsten is talking about. It just feels more simple. Maybe its because it is simple. No other menu's or options u don't have to select, but do have to skip.

Good thing the RX1 is gonna do it different than the nex (5N in my case).



michaelwatkins wrote:
Bijltje wrote:
Counting the lens release button and frame line selector isn't realy fair I think.
The button at the front of the new M is for live view.

Sure it's fair, because I took the time to count, I get to decide what goes in and out!

Lens release... ok, you got me there. But it is a button, one the Sony doesn't require.

In the case of the frame line selector, this has a direct impact on composition. A live view through the finder (LCD or external) camera like the RX1, or the new M fitted with an external finder, doesn't need that frame line selector - it is superfluous (although some M9 owners may disagree with Leica on that).

The point I wanted to make is that all three cameras - the RX1, M9, M - have a similar level of button complexity. Configured similarly to how one might shoot a digital M, changes are you'd only visit the menu to format SD cards too. My most frequent use of the menu in the GXR/M is card formatting too.

The NEX interface is horrible; the RX1 / RX100 interface looks much saner by comparison.

PS: If that unlabelled button on the front is for live-view selection, why does the new M have a LV button on the front and back? That seems like an uncharacteristic duplication.

PSPS: The RX1 has a mechanical cable shutter release fitting in the shutter button.



I looked the video on youtube again and I was wrong. Its a focus button to activate the focus assists like focuspeaking or zoom. LV is indeed on the back and on top is the film button.

I do really like the frame line selector, and can't see why leica stopped with them on the M and ME. I use it quite often.
Maybe they have a button quota which they reached with that new film and focus button...

U are right about the amount, like sebboh stated above. Counting the buttons on my sony NEX 5N I can only find 10 including the touchscreen and the lens release button ()
But like I say above the M still feels like a more simple camera. Maybe its not in the buttons, but in the features.

Frankly, whether I'm shooting NEX, the A900, M9, X100, etc., the dials and layout all work pretty well for me, since I usually just set the camera up once and only really access shutter, aperture, and occasionally ISO from there. I've never really had much of a problem with any menu system after a few days.

What I do like about the the Fujis and my M9 is that the shutter and aperture dials are labelled, so that you don't have to bring the camera to your eye or look at the LCD to see your settings (the RX1 does have the labelled aperture ring.) I also like the presence of a manual focus distance indicator, whether it be on the lens itself like with manual lenses, or at least on the LCD like the Fujis. Does the RX1 have a digital distance indicator?

To me (and I think Sony,) the RX1 is ALL about being small, so, if you're not interested in small, then there are many other alternative options out there.

Bijltje wrote:
But like I say above the M still feels like a more simple camera. Maybe its not in the buttons, but in the features.


i think a lot of it is psychological – the m looks like a simple camera because it looks like an old film camera that was simple. the rx1 looks like a typical high tech compact, which we associate with feature bloat and crappy industrial design.

Bought a remote control for the NEX, the shop assistance and I were looking for 30 minutes to find out how it worked. Who in earth puts it under the drive modus...

Canon.