Auto focus for me as I am over 60 and the viewfinder is not as sharp anymore!

paregorike wrote:
I know.. LoL. I'd just probably have a used M9 and TWO lenses.. the most!


Not a bad idea, your back and/or shoulders with thank you for the weight savings compared to a DSLR kit.

You won't go wrong with a used M8 since prices have been somewhat stable for the past 12-18 months. With the 1.3 crop, a nice lens to start off with would be either a 28 or 35 FL. For the "full" Leica experience, try a 28 or a 35 Summicron, those work great on a M8. I also agree with others, the CV lenses especially some of the ultrawides, the 35/1.2 and 50/1.5 are great values, else most of the Zeiss lenses are excellent.

If you stay mostly at base iso, the M8 still produces sharp and beautiful files. Not really suitable for shooting above iso640 unless you like grain or are willing to convert to B&W. The UV-IR filter is also a hassle but you can always upgrade to a M9

I think used prices for the M9 in the near term will be in the $4-5k range, so anything below $4k might be a good deal.

The other alternative to see if you enjoy the rangefinder experience is to get yourself a used film M such as a M6 M7 or even the older M2,3 & 4s.

edwardkaraa wrote:
I realized that the M8/M8.2 sensor performance is quite far from today's standards

That is of course true for anything above base ISO, at which the performance is impeccable. I'm particularly pleased with the colors I get with my M8, and don't get me started on the details this thing can resolve ...

I would like to try the Rf experience. I have a Fuji x100, and if the Xpro1 uses a similar focusing to the x100 then that isn't what I am looking for. I'll be looking into buying an M8 or 8.2 once my budget allows.

Thanks to all for the great advice and input!




BTW, are Zeiss glass compatible with Leicas without a mount adapter?

paregorike wrote:
I would like to try the Rf experience. I have a Fuji x100, and if the Xpro1 uses a similar focusing to the x100 then that isn't what I am looking for. I'll be looking into buying an M8 or 8.2 once my budget allows.

Thanks to all for the great advice and input!




BTW, are Zeiss glass compatible with Leicas without a mount adapter?

Leica M, Zeiss ZM series, voightlander rangefinder lenses, and many old rangefinder lenses use the same M mount. So they are all compatible with each other and are all rangefinder coupled.

Mescalamba wrote:
X-Pro 1 isnt rangefinder, its pretty much regular mirrorless with somewhat "rangefinderish" behaving. And its sh*t load of trouble in most aspects. Fuji stuff is usually for ppl who likes to suffer a lot.

)

This sounds hilarious coming from a group talking about the M8. Naw, no suffering there.

Bijltje wrote:
kosmoskatten wrote:
I've owned the M9, handled the M8 briefly but found the M8 lacking in too many departments to justify a buy.

The M8 comes very hard to recommend for several reasons. Build quality isn't one of them though.

Only thing it has against it are:

1: you need uv/ir filteres. Not that big a deal because the filters are just on the lenses all te time like regular UV filters are used on other camera's. Only buying is more expensive over the standard UV filter (100 euro) but there are a lot of old M8 owners who gladly want to sell theirs for far less. So not really a disadvantage.

2: High ISO isn't that good, nevertheless I spend 3 years with the M8 and never missed a shot because of that. After some practice slow shutter speeds can be used than with a dslr.




Poor high ISO performance is a HUGE strike against the Leica M8. If you aren't missing shots, it is only because you arent taking those shots. Being held to ISO 680 is a huge limitation. Some shots simply cannot be made with this in place.

Example: I was on a fairly fast moving ferry last night, trying to get this shot. ISO3200, f/2, 1/50th of a second. Any slower (I tried at ISO1600) and the movement blurred the image beyond acceptability.

Knocking this down to ISO680 would give shutter speeds around 1/10th of a second. That would be completely unusable. A faster lens at f/1.4 would get you some of that back but not enough to matter.

Bijltje wrote:
paregorike wrote:
I would like to try the Rf experience. I have a Fuji x100, and if the Xpro1 uses a similar focusing to the x100 then that isn't what I am looking for. I'll be looking into buying an M8 or 8.2 once my budget allows.

Thanks to all for the great advice and input!




BTW, are Zeiss glass compatible with Leicas without a mount adapter?

Leica M, Zeiss ZM series, voightlander rangefinder lenses, and many old rangefinder lenses use the same M mount. So they are all compatible with each other and are all rangefinder coupled.

I looked up some of the Zeiss lenses, they are definitely cheaper. Any recommendations on the Zeiss ZM glass?

rattymouse wrote:
Bijltje wrote:
kosmoskatten wrote:
I've owned the M9, handled the M8 briefly but found the M8 lacking in too many departments to justify a buy.

The M8 comes very hard to recommend for several reasons. Build quality isn't one of them though.

Only thing it has against it are:

1: you need uv/ir filteres. Not that big a deal because the filters are just on the lenses all te time like regular UV filters are used on other camera's. Only buying is more expensive over the standard UV filter (100 euro) but there are a lot of old M8 owners who gladly want to sell theirs for far less. So not really a disadvantage.

2: High ISO isn't that good, nevertheless I spend 3 years with the M8 and never missed a shot because of that. After some practice slow shutter speeds can be used than with a dslr.




Poor high ISO performance is a HUGE strike against the Leica M8. If you aren't missing shots, it is only because you arent taking those shots. Being held to ISO 680 is a huge limitation. Some shots simply cannot be made with this in place.

Example: I was on a fairly fast moving ferry last night, trying to get this shot. ISO3200, f/2, 1/50th of a second. Any slower (I tried at ISO1600) and the movement blurred the image beyond acceptability.

Knocking this down to ISO680 would give shutter speeds around 1/10th of a second. That would be completely unusable. A faster lens at f/1.4 would get you some of that back but not enough to matter.

paregorike wrote:
Bijltje wrote:
paregorike wrote:
I would like to try the Rf experience. I have a Fuji x100, and if the Xpro1 uses a similar focusing to the x100 then that isn't what I am looking for. I'll be looking into buying an M8 or 8.2 once my budget allows.

Thanks to all for the great advice and input!




BTW, are Zeiss glass compatible with Leicas without a mount adapter?

Leica M, Zeiss ZM series, voightlander rangefinder lenses, and many old rangefinder lenses use the same M mount. So they are all compatible with each other and are all rangefinder coupled.

I looked up some of the Zeiss lenses, they are definitely cheaper. Any recommendations on the Zeiss ZM glass?


Depends on your needs and what focal length you like. On the M8 I have had ZM 18/4, 28/2.8, 35/2.8 and 50/2. On the M9 I only used the 35/2.8.

By far my most favorite one is the 28/2.8 because it gives a nice 35mm vof on the M8. The 25/2.8 is said to be on of the best ZM lenses but the 28mm lines in the finder better to see than the 24mm ones.

So 28mm I used about 80% of the time.

If your more a 50mm person the 35/2 ZM is a good alternative. But I liked the 35/2.8 better because its small size and flare resistance.

Actually you can't get wrong with any of them because they are all really good lenses. Only be aware of the 21/4.5 because it produces problems in the edges with digital camera's. It is also advices by zeiss to only use it on the ikon analog camera.
And notice the 50/1.5 sonnar is a lens designed to give a real classic rendering. So don't expect it to be an altenative for the 50/1.4 summilux. If you like the classic rendering the sonnar can be a real nice lens to have.

The ISO debate is missing the target, completely ignoring a much wider picture, you are stuck in with a very narrow frame. This can be a bit dangerous so I hope your work does not involve any kind of analysis.

The whole picture is that you miss shots with EVERY camera. I missed tons of shots with my D700 because it was too heavy to carry or its appearance made it impossible to use, I will miss tons of photos with the M8 because I can't use a tele lens or use it at ISO 6400. This applies to every camera there is - it is a compromise. One has to weight pro's and con's - for SOME people the M8 will mean LESS missed shots.

paregorike wrote:

I looked up some of the Zeiss lenses, they are definitely cheaper. Any recommendations on the Zeiss ZM glass?


With the exception of the 21 f/4.5 and perhaps the 50 f/1.5 (not a bad lens, just not as easy to use), any of the Zeiss lenses are good options, as Robert pointed out, and I posted on the previous page: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1123745/0#10735147

JonasY wrote:
The ISO debate is missing the target, completely ignoring a much wider picture, you are stuck in with a very narrow frame. This can be a bit dangerous so I hope your work does not involve any kind of analysis.

The whole picture is that you miss shots with EVERY camera. I missed tons of shots with my D700 because it was too heavy to carry or its appearance made it impossible to use, I will miss tons of photos with the M8 because I can't use a tele lens or use it at ISO 6400. This applies to every camera there is - it is a compromise. One has to weight pro's and con's - for SOME people the M8 will mean LESS missed shots.

Agreed! Most of the M9 images I post in the Leica thread I could do with my Canon gear. There would be differences in rendering, but subject content would be the same. The reason I shoot a lot with the Leica though is that I enjoy the process with it as much as, or perhaps even more than with the large DSLR and L series lenses. The fact I can carry a large sensor camera with a 21/28/50/90 kit in a satchel bag that would otherwise only fit a 70-200 L series zoom, is another reason, that IMO outweigh some of the compromises, such as poorer high-ISO capability. And I think many people enjoy photography not just for the images they create, but also the actual process of photography, of which equipment plays a significant role. And for some, a rangefinder camera based on ancient, stripped-down technology, without the intervention of bells and whistles getting in the way, fits their needs.

I have a D700 and a plethora of lenses...and I was happy with it until I got an M8 (used). since then I haven't touched my D700...

the M8 is pretty much noisy @ ISO 640...actually, it's worse than that: you already have shadow noise even @ ISO 320

Note, however that with the D700 i use primes 99.999% of the time and used the Zeiss 28/2 almost 70% of the time...so an M8 isn't exactly a huge departure for me in terms of shooting style.

I have a Zeiss 35/2, zeiss 50/2 and leica 75 summarit.

the Zeiss 35/2 is so sharp even wide open i can't imagine the Leica ASPH to be much better (but i want one anyways ).

the 50/2...eh...up close it's good...not as good as the 35, though...towards infinity...better stop down.

the Leica 75 is very good...but i think Leica cheated on this...i think it's more of a f2.8.

I already sold my Nikon outfit...I'm currently looking to getting an M9 and add a Leica 28/2.8 ASPH

rscheffler wrote:
The reason I shoot a lot with the Leica though is that I enjoy the process with it as much as, or perhaps even more than with the large DSLR and L series lenses...

I couldn't agree more with this..

as they say: "it's the trip; not the destination."

Contrary to some of the recommendations I think the ZM21/4.5 is a nice lens on the M8...it's nice and compact, distortion free, nice 'Zeiss' colors and gives a nice 28mm equivalent FOV. It may need to have shots fixed up with cornerfix due to cyan cast, but it's not nearly the issue it would be on the M9. I find that I often pick it up over my ZM25/2.8 which is a better lens in many ways...I guess I just like the FOV.

Both ZM 50s' are great lenses as well.

M8 and zone focus.
Buy a 50 collapsible....$250-$375 and a 35mm elmar...$200-$350 and see if it fits. It did for me...only problem I bought a 50 Summilux and I'm thinking a 35 Summicron might fit the bill as well until the 9 comes into play then I'm done. As always, anybody want to buy a D700 with under 1000 clicks...never use it.
Love my Leica!

I've been a semi pro on and off using canon dslrs (studio) and all those L glasses. forgot all about the fun and excitement that I had when I shot film back in college.
I'm fairly young at 33.
I bought m8.2 about half yr ago off ebay with messed up lcd inside the finder. (blurry, can barely read shutter speed) and couple cv lens and a leica lens.

needing uv/ir filters, old sensor, mf and so on, but these only bothered me a week.

So far I took about 6k+ shots and about to put 300 shots more today.

It really makes you forget all those technical aspect of a gadget and make you concentrate on the subjects and the philosophy of photography.

I am happy with iso 1250 being usable. When I shot film, I never used faster than 400iso films.

The files are awesome! I mean the feel of them are special, something I never got from 5DII, 5D, 10D, 40D, 7D and 35L, 85LII, 24-70L, 70-200L IS II, 400L, 300L 2.8 IS and so on.
The file size is good and that doesn't slow down my computer. 5DII was over kill.

I could sell all my canon and buy another leica in heart beat.

I want M6 too!

Leica changed my life.. in a better way..

Buy now, shoot now.

Worry about "what ifs" and upgrades later. Invest in lenses, not bodies.

edwardkaraa wrote:
Very interesting thread. I had the same dilemma last year when I decided to switch to rangefinders. I realized that the M8/M8.2 sensor performance is quite far from today's standards, not to mention the problems with IR and other imperfections. The M9 is great but not a good investment at this time when it has basically reached the end of its life cycle. So my decision was to wait until the M10 is released, and then decide whether to get the M9 (lower price, easy to get), or the M10 (latest model, LV, probably unobtainable before end of 2013). In the meanwhile I'm very happy with my film rangefinders.


I'm kind of in the same boat, but went with a different solution, for now. I'd love an M9, but the price still doesn't make sense for me, so I'm waiting to see what happens after the M10 comes. In the meantime, I've been shooting a little X100, and I like it much more than I expected. I like it enough that I may reconsider buying an M9 even when the price drops, because it'll still be pretty expensive, comparatively, and I love the size of the X100.

I've used and owned film rangefinders in the past, and the X100 gives a pretty similar experience, despite being AF...especially if you zone focus, which is common for street photography. I guess the X100 is more of a Contax G like camera (or Hexar AF,) rather than a Leica M, but it is fun to use, and the file output is very good. I've not used older firmwares, but I've not had much issue with the camera, myself.

If I turn off the X100's image review and use the rather fantastic VSCO Lightroom plug-ins, I ALMOST forget I'm not shooting film.

I really, really wanted to try the M8.2 after selling my D700. The noisy high ISO didn't really scare me away as much as the sensor issues and problems people have had with an unusually high failure rate. To me, it seems that fail rate is way too high for a camera in that price range. Is it really true about the high fail rates or just internet gossip? I don't know, but I can't afford a warranty backed dealer M8.2 AND a nice lens, so I would have had to buy used which is too risky for my blood on a camera with known issues.

That being said, I have bought a OM-D that seems pretty nice, but I'm really wanting to try a NEX-7 with some nice MF lenses. X-Pro 1 seems nice, but I was frustrated with an X100 when it first came out and hear not much has changed with regard to shutter lag and such.

I'd love to try out an M8.2, but affraid I'll fall in love with it too much and ignore the reliability factors. With my luck, it'll sooner or later have that dreded vertical line show up.