Anyone else ready for a real 7D replacement?
/forum/topic/1110510/1

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uz2work
Registered: Mar 04, 2004
Total Posts: 11684
Country: United States

Sometimes, I think that there can be value in putting things in perspective. I am amazed when I look at how much DSLR technology has advanced in about a decade.

My first DSLR was a 10D in 2003. That was the camera for which I decided that the technology and price point were at levels that made moving into a digital SLR practical and worthwhile. With that camera, I was able, usually, to get a static subject in focus. With some luck, I got moving subjects in focus. I could shoot at an amazing 3 frames per second and buffer 8 or 9 shots. If I hit the buffer limit, I could go to get a cup of coffee while waiting for the buffer to clear. And I could shoot at an astounding ISO 800 level (if I was willing to tolerate lots of noise in exchange for getting the shot).

Over the course of nearly a decade, I continued to chase the advancing technology and owned a 1D Mark II, a 1D Mark III, a 1D Mark IV, every x0D camera from the 10D to the 50D, and a 7D. As I moved from one body to another, I eventually realized that the technology was advancing at a rate many times faster than were my skill and ability. Further, I realized that, as much as I enjoyed using the improvements in each generation of camera bodies, the improvements in the quality of my images were only very marginal with each camera upgrade.

Now, for the first time, I have no interest whatever in upgrading the two camera bodies that I am currently using (a 1D Mark IV and a 7D). Not only is each of them amazing, in terms of its capabilities, in its own right, but the strengths of each complement those of the other quite well for my uses. I have all the pixels that I want. I have AF systems in both bodies for which I can say that, when I get an out-of-focus image, it is my fault and not that of the camera. I can shoot at ISOs beyond levels that I am likely to need, and I have feature sets that I never would have imagined, ten years ago, would have existed.

While I'm sure that the 1DX and a potential 7D Mark II will have improvements over my 1D Mark IV and 7D, I'm also confident that those improvements would have a very negligible effect on the quality of my photography, and I am happy to know that I am comfortable with taking a break from continuing to chase the technology and from lusting for "improved" camera bodies.

Les



dehrk
Registered: Apr 25, 2011
Total Posts: 84
Country: United States

bht-kevin wrote:
60D was such a huge dissapointment also... sigh.

OH DEAR! I should throw mine out immediately!



Sneakyracer
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Total Posts: 2727
Country: United States

I think the 1.6X cropped cameras are a thing of the past as products. They offer no real advantage in terms of being physically a lot smaller, lighter and overall handier than the full frame cameras. Ditto with the EF-S lenses.

The cropped sensor cameras based on older designs like the 7D are a product of when the sensors were very expensive to make and most DSLR's had smaller sensors. The 7D is just the pinnacle of cropped sensor cameras.

The future is in mirrorless cameras like the Nikon V1 et. al. They are significantly smaller, offer very fast AF in both still and video modes and overall the body and lenses are MUCH smaller/lighter and overall much handier than anything in the cropped sensor DSLR world.

Whether Canon wants to participate or not its another topic. Cropped sensor cameras still make sense in some pricepoints but not for long. Doesnt mean they are all going to stop working all of the sudden!

So, will there be a 7D replacement? Honestly, I do not think so. Look at the Nikon 3200. 24MP (and clean image quality), video, $699 with kit lens. If Canon makes improvements in a cropped sensor DSLR it most likely be in a model at a lower price point than the 7D. At the 7D price point they will most likely position a Full Frame DSLR.

They need to offer a best value in the DSLR world, just like the 5D mk2 was when it came out. Nothing was close. The Nikon D800/E offers that. No DSLR touches it. At ANY price!



Jo Dilbeck
Registered: Dec 20, 2007
Total Posts: 2413
Country: United States

uz2work wrote:
Sometimes, I think that there can be value in putting things in perspective. I am amazed when I look at how much DSLR technology has advanced in about a decade.

My first DSLR was a 10D in 2003. That was the camera for which I decided that the technology and price point were at levels that made moving into a digital SLR practical and worthwhile. With that camera, I was able, usually, to get a static subject in focus. With some luck, I got moving subjects in focus. I could shoot at an amazing 3 frames per second and buffer 8 or 9 shots. If I hit the buffer limit, I could go to get a cup of coffee while waiting for the buffer to clear. And I could shoot at an astounding ISO 800 level (if I was willing to tolerate lots of noise in exchange for getting the shot).

Over the course of nearly a decade, I continued to chase the advancing technology and owned a 1D Mark II, a 1D Mark III, a 1D Mark IV, every x0D camera from the 10D to the 50D, and a 7D. As I moved from one body to another, I eventually realized that the technology was advancing at a rate many times faster than were my skill and ability. Further, I realized that, as much as I enjoyed using the improvements in each generation of camera bodies, the improvements in the quality of my images were only very marginal with each camera upgrade.

Now, for the first time, I have no interest whatever in upgrading the two camera bodies that I am currently using (a 1D Mark IV and a 7D). Not only is each of them amazing, in terms of its capabilities, in its own right, but the strengths of each complement those of the other quite well for my uses. I have all the pixels that I want. I have AF systems in both bodies for which I can say that, when I get an out-of-focus image, it is my fault and not that of the camera. I can shoot at ISOs beyond levels that I am likely to need, and I have feature sets that I never would have imagined, ten years ago, would have existed.

While I'm sure that the 1DX and a potential 7D Mark II will have improvements over my 1D Mark IV and 7D, I'm also confident that those improvements would have a very negligible effect on the quality of my photography, and I am happy to know that I am comfortable with taking a break from continuing to chase the technology and from lusting for "improved" camera bodies.

Les


I have to agree with Les 100%, this could be my story as well. I too am content to sit out any upgrades at this time, I own 5D2, 1D4 and 7D and they are all used for their own strengths. In order to upgrade to a 5D3, I would have to sell either the 1D4, or both the 5D2 and 7D. Neither of those options is acceptable to me at this time for the "upgrades" available to me in the 5D3.

Jo



bht-kevin
Registered: Apr 30, 2005
Total Posts: 241
Country: United States

Oh man this post cracks me up. People get so bent out of shape when you rip on their camera brand. The attacks on my "skills" with a camera really, really crack me up. I actually dont own a 7D, that last bit was just a joke (but true joke, sorry for the 5DMK3 owners that have to send in their cameras for a black tape adjustment).

I do own a 40D and I havent seen a reason to upgrade since then. I wanted a 7D but after 2.5 years, you know something new should be coming soon so I personally don't want to spend the money on 2.5 year old technology. I was going to get a 60D but its a step backwards if you are used to the solid 10D-50D line. So... I wait... and bitch... one of these days...

Pretty much everyone summed up my feeling even though they didnt mean to, there has been no real camera innovations in 4 years. THATS WHAT I AM ANNOYED WITH. Yeah a little less noise, a little better AF, but overall its been stagnant. Lets get some pixel level ISO response, mirror less designs, etc... Lets get some real technology advancements.



bht-kevin
Registered: Apr 30, 2005
Total Posts: 241
Country: United States

Sneakyracer wrote:
I think the 1.6X cropped cameras are a thing of the past as products. They offer no real advantage in terms of being physically a lot smaller, lighter and overall handier than the full frame cameras. Ditto with the EF-S lenses.

The cropped sensor cameras based on older designs like the 7D are a product of when the sensors were very expensive to make and most DSLR's had smaller sensors. The 7D is just the pinnacle of cropped sensor cameras.

The future is in mirrorless cameras like the Nikon V1 et. al. They are significantly smaller, offer very fast AF in both still and video modes and overall the body and lenses are MUCH smaller/lighter and overall much handier than anything in the cropped sensor DSLR world.

Whether Canon wants to participate or not its another topic. Cropped sensor cameras still make sense in some pricepoints but not for long. Doesnt mean they are all going to stop working all of the sudden!

So, will there be a 7D replacement? Honestly, I do not think so. Look at the Nikon 3200. 24MP (and clean image quality), video, $699 with kit lens. If Canon makes improvements in a cropped sensor DSLR it most likely be in a model at a lower price point than the 7D. At the 7D price point they will most likely position a Full Frame DSLR.

They need to offer a best value in the DSLR world, just like the 5D mk2 was when it came out. Nothing was close. The Nikon D800/E offers that. No DSLR touches it. At ANY price!


Summed it up pretty well!



bht-kevin
Registered: Apr 30, 2005
Total Posts: 241
Country: United States

uz2work wrote:
Over the course of nearly a decade, I continued to chase the advancing technology and owned a 1D Mark II, a 1D Mark III, a 1D Mark IV, every x0D camera from the 10D to the 50D, and a 7D. As I moved from one body to another, I eventually realized that the technology was advancing at a rate many times faster than were my skill and ability. Further, I realized that, as much as I enjoyed using the improvements in each generation of camera bodies, the improvements in the quality of my images were only very marginal with each camera upgrade.

Les



That is because overall, the technology isnt advancing. Its stagnant. Its a rehash of the same technology over and over with very minor tweaks. You think the technology has changed leaps and bounds but it hasnt. Its just slowly refined and the reason you see marginal improvements with the quality of your images.



jerrykur
Registered: Feb 15, 2005
Total Posts: 4254
Country: United States

If you want mirrorless go get one. I have shot with several mirrorless systems and am not impressed. But don't let that stop you from giving it a try. It is only money.



akin_t
Registered: Nov 12, 2010
Total Posts: 325
Country: United States

bht-kevin wrote:
... Lets get some pixel level ISO response, mirror less designs, etc... Lets get some real technology advancements.


Unless you're an Engineer, I think you should keep your opinions on design to yourself.

Too many of you are just so fond of talking out of your rear when brainstorming ideas. How the hell do you expect a mirrorless design to work without compromising low light sensitivity, AF accuracy, and aperture at which AF is still functional.

You people just hear 'mirrorless' and want it without even knowing wtf it brings to the table.



bht-kevin
Registered: Apr 30, 2005
Total Posts: 241
Country: United States

akin_t wrote:
bht-kevin wrote:
... Lets get some pixel level ISO response, mirror less designs, etc... Lets get some real technology advancements.


Unless you're an Engineer, I think you should keep your opinions on design to yourself.

Too many of you are just so fond of talking out of your rear when brainstorming ideas. How the hell do you expect a mirrorless design to work without compromising low light sensitivity, AF accuracy, and aperture at which AF is still functional.

You people just hear 'mirrorless' and want it without even knowing wtf it brings to the table.


I am an Engineer(electrical), with 3 patents and multiple products used by 100k+ people per year. Brainstorming ideas is "talking out of your rear." True innovation comes from breaking the mold. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.



user222
Registered: Sep 13, 2007
Total Posts: 793
Country: United States

bht-kevin wrote:That is because overall, the technology isnt advancing. Its stagnant. Its a rehash of the same technology over and over with very minor tweaks.

What are you waiting for? A DSLR that will make pancakes and scratch your balls? (borrowed that from George Carlin. Thanks George).

Go look at this photo taken with a Rebel and kit lens. Then quit your whining.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1102702



bht-kevin
Registered: Apr 30, 2005
Total Posts: 241
Country: United States

user222 wrote:
bht-kevin wrote:That is because overall, the technology isnt advancing. Its stagnant. Its a rehash of the same technology over and over with very minor tweaks.

What are you waiting for? A DSLR that will make pancakes and scratch your balls? (borrowed that from George Carlin. Thanks George).

Go look at this photo taken with a Rebel and kit lens. Then quit your whining.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1102702


Loved that guy...

My point exactly, no real innovation in YEARS



Gochugogi
Registered: Jun 25, 2003
Total Posts: 9854
Country: United States

True, there have not been many significant EOS innovations for a long time. Most changes are mere evolutionary tweaks. And that's how it should be as Canon is building on a mature and refined system. Spot AF is the one breakthrough feature that stood out when I bought a 7D during Fall 2009. True, a limited version of Spot focus appeared in a 1D series camera first, but the 7D implementation is better and the one "bell 'n whistle" I actually use all the time (keep spot AF on the DOF button). The large single point often locked slightly off with tricky subjects (eyebrow instead of eyeball) and being able to reduce point size so you can precisely place on a tiny point of contrast was a major technical advancement.

I wouldn't call a mirror less design EOS a "real technology advancement." It's already been done well by Sony, Olympus, Fuji and Panasonic so Canon would merely be a copycat. I own a couple of those cameras and, in reality, while it makes a great "serious" point 'n shoot, going mirrorless is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The optical VF of the 7D is simply a lot better than a EVF: EVF DR and motion smearing is terrible. Unlike the naked eye and OVF, seeing into shadows in contrasty light while using a EVF is impossible.

The only EOS features I really crave are a return of ECF (or if you must have "real technology advancement," brainwave focus), shiftable DEP and, this is really old skool, WI-Fi for lazy ass uploads.



tonywong88
Registered: Sep 10, 2005
Total Posts: 260
Country: Canada

What you are asking for isn't innovation, it's revolution. To break paradigms and upset the existing order for advancements that cannot be normally predicted.

There's a lot of innovation going on, but most of it quietly goes into refining the products that we have currently. You as an engineer know better than most people that making improvements in a system isn't simply turning a knob to 11.

Pick up a Lytro if you want revolution. Pick up a 7D if you want to take photos. Pick up an iPhone if you want to share your photos.



Nozzleforward
Registered: Jun 16, 2011
Total Posts: 787
Country: United States

"I actually dont own a 7D" - bht-kevin

Ugh, I've been trolled again!



Imagemaster
Registered: Feb 23, 2004
Total Posts: 35251
Country: Canada

Yeah, 7D really sucks:



Peter Le
Registered: Apr 15, 2008
Total Posts: 1061
Country: United States

bht-kevin wrote:
Oh man this post cracks me up. People get so bent out of shape when you rip on their camera brand. The attacks on my "skills" with a camera really, really crack me up. I actually dont own a 7D, that last bit was just a joke (but true joke, sorry for the 5DMK3 owners that have to send in their cameras for a black tape adjustment).

I do own a 40D and I havent seen a reason to upgrade since then. I wanted a 7D but after 2.5 years, you know something new should be coming soon so I personally don't want to spend the money on 2.5 year old technology. I was going to get a 60D but its a step backwards if you are used to the solid 10D-50D line. So... I wait... and bitch... one of these days...

Pretty much everyone summed up my feeling even though they didnt mean to, there has been no real camera innovations in 4 years. THATS WHAT I AM ANNOYED WITH. Yeah a little less noise, a little better AF, but overall its been stagnant. Lets get some pixel level ISO response, mirror less designs, etc... Lets get some real technology advancements.


So very true......all though I am content with my old tech Canon stuff for now....you are right....there is no reason to upgrade in the Canon camp.....no new innovations just upgrades to what they should have done years ago. Just look at this Canon forum......not at all like it was years ago when Canon was leading the camera tech at the best price. Very aggressive to anyone that dares challenge the all mighty Canon gods. Good discussions are almost a thing of the past here......it has become just a rip and apologize forum. Hey maybe Fred should rename it the Canon Apologists Forum. Now the better and more civilized discussions are on the Nikon forum......they are the new innovators and do it for a better price like Canon of the past. The Canonites seem to have trouble with this......it has always puzzled me why such company loyalty......they are just tools to get a job done and it is almost always easier with the better tool. I really don't think the 5dIII would have pro tech focus if they did not take a beating for the focus on the 5dII.....so it can be more productive to beat then apologize. Well for now I will just lurk till this place gets more civilized and discuss things in the Nikon forum.....even though I don't shoot Nikon.......well at least not yet.....



surf monkey
Registered: May 24, 2005
Total Posts: 2740
Country: United States

bht-kevin wrote:
My point exactly, no real innovation in YEARS


What exactly are you looking for that the current gear doesn't do?
Does the current gear in some way, restrict your ability to make great images?

Without specifying what result you're looking for, it seems a moot point to discuss how to get there or the lack of innovation.



Monito
Registered: Jan 28, 2005
Total Posts: 10096
Country: Canada

bht-kevin wrote: My point exactly, no real innovation in YEARS

Just sell all your Canon gear and buy SoNikon and then you won't have to kvetch about anything. Unless kvetching is your game and then you'll be sure to find something to kvetch about NikSony.

Have the courage of your convictions to take action on your statement instead of just dumping shit on Canon, if you really believe it is that bad.

Put up or shut up. Please.



Monito
Registered: Jan 28, 2005
Total Posts: 10096
Country: Canada

bht-kevin wrote: [...] add some black tape to my 7D as an upgrade. [...]

bht-kevin wrote: [...] I actually dont own a 7D [...]

It's very stupid to lie to the forums.

Nobody can believe anything you write now, especially this crap:

bht-kevin wrote: I am an Engineer(electrical), with 3 patents and multiple products used by 100k+ people per year



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