p.1 #1 · Legal question - selling prints from event
More photos on page 6.
I recently attended the World Junior Ultimate Championships (website: http://www.wjuc2006.org/home.htm ) and took some photos. It ran all week but I could only make it for thursday and friday (semis and finals basically), and it was kind of a last minute decision that I would even go. I run a website on which I display and sell prints of events I attend, http://www.ultimatefris.be . I don't agressively market it or anything, just if someone sees a picture of themselves, they can get a print.
Anyway, so I show up on thursday morning and start shooting. There is plenty of staff on hand, including the tournament director, that sees me and says nothing. I meet another photographer there who has a nice on-site printing set up going and seems to be doing decent business. During one of the games he even lets me use his 400 2.8 for a while. Now that the event is over I get an email from the tournament director that contains the following:
"As Media Director of Worlds, I hired 3 volunteer photographer
for the tournament. These guys spent time and money and came away with
great shots.
I'm sorry, but I can't have you selling photographs of Worlds on your
Ultimatefris.Be website, and I can't have you published in the UPA
magazine. That would be patently unfair to my hard-working
photographers.
I wish you had gone through the proper channels to speak with me, then
we wouldn't have you wasted this time at Worlds. You are, of course,
welcome to show them, print them and siplay them, but official rights
for all WJUC photography belongs with the NEUA."
I'm wondering if he can really tell me I'm not allowed to sell prints. I mean, as far as I could tell there wasn't anything on the website informing me of selling restrictions, they clearly saw me and my camera (he stated this) and didn't ask me to leave, or to stop taking pictures, or inform me that if I kept taking pictures I wouldn't be able to sell them, there were no press passes handed out to anyone (even the "hired volunteer" photographers) or photography waivers signed (like I have signed at many ultimate events - this event was not run by the UPA however).
I didn't even go to the event so I could sell pictures, I went because I love taking pictures of Ultimate (and frankly, because I saw some of the pictures from one of the photographers and decided I could do much better), and if I can make $20 by selling a print to cover the gas it cost me to get there that would be nice too. What really gets me is that he says I'm not allowed to offer some shots for the UPA magazine. This is just a quarterly magazine that is given out as part of UPA membership (a nonprofit org), and I would have loved to get some shots in there.
Assuming I'm not allowed to sell them, I'm thinking I'll just open up access to the orginals to everyone to just download and print themselves for free. No money in my pocket but at least people get to enjoy some nice prints. Maybe people can "donate" to me, because I'm a nice guy, after they download their free images.
I haven't really started processing yet, but here is one shot I got with the "official" photographer's 400 2.8:
p.1 #2 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Regardless of what the legal answer might be, and given that you love shooting Ultimate, do you really want to get crosswise with these guys over something that you really didn't intend to do in the first place? Why not just say "sure, no problem, and please keep me in mind for next time?"
p.1 #5 · Legal question - selling prints from event
You may not mind geting into a crosswise situation with the event's organizer but perhaps that guy who lent you the 400 might not feel the same. Whatever you decide to do, I'd reccommend that you treat your 400 shots as a separate category so as not to compromise the lending photographer's relationship with the organizer and/or possibly jeopardise any future loans of such a nice lens.
p.1 #7 · Legal question - selling prints from event
I can not even respond to this beyond this is one of the reasons Larry made his post last night about being forced to go out of business.
Just because you have a camera does not give you the right to do what ever you want. Just because someone owns a grill does not mean they can set up in McDonald's parking lot and start making burgers and selling them.
I honestly can not see how this is right to you.....
p.1 #8 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Considering that the Freesbie community is probably rather small I don't think you should burn your bridges. Nill gave yo usome sound advice, apologize...and try to make a relationship for next year. Also if you concerned with only making $20 to cover your gas...is it really worth it?
Also just because they did not confront you does not mean that it is thier fault....I am suprised what your "average Joe" brings to an event.
p.1 #11 · Legal question - selling prints from event
There is just so much wrong with this scenario that I'm not sure it's even worth responding to. But, since Carl responded...
You admitted in your original post that you "didn't even go to the event so I could sell pictures." Then don't. It's as easy as that (or should be, if one wasn't looking for a fight. ).
What's your point here? You brag about your shots being better than the event photogs, yet the image you posted here was with his lens. That's laughable.
But let's assume for the sake of this discussion that you are, in fact, a better shooter than those already working with the organization...do you really believe that causing a stink like this is the best way to go about possibly shooting for this event (or the magazine) in the future? Again, what's your point? To make $20?
No wait...there's more...you're really gonna teach them a lesson when you just put the images up on a web page for free downloads. That'lll teach them to mess with you and show that you're such a "nice guy". Something tells me that's not anywhere in the "how to win friends and influence people" handbook. Seems like this could end up being a classic case of what goes around comes around.
Please do yourself a huge favor...take Nill's advice.
p.1 #12 · Legal question - selling prints from event
The point is that I sell so few photographs it's pretty ridiculous to tell me not to post them for sale. I sell maybe 2, 3 prints from an entire event, and the money only goes a very short way toward me breaking even for my own equipment. I am not competition for the event photographers any more than the 20-30 other photographers there are, yet I'm sure I'm the only one who got this email, I didn't even tell anyone at the event that I had a website, and I directed a fair amount of people over the the even photographer's on site printing set up. I was certainly dissapointed by the photos I was being shown from the event, but they weren't from the guy who let me borrow his 400, he was cool and got some great shots. It was this guy: http://www.wjuc2006.org/photos_tuesday_bc/pages/_MG_2104_JPG.htm
As for letting people download them for free, why should some Colombian mom not be allowed to get a nice print of her son if the other photographer's didn't get any? "I'm sorry miss, but none of our official photographers got a shot of your son, so you get no prints from his once in a lifetime event."
p.1 #13 · Legal question - selling prints from event
There could have been many reasons the event staff allowed you to stay. You could have had a friend / relative in the event. You could have been doing it for fun. You could have been there covering the event for some editorial publication.
I'd say by offering the prints for free on your website, you'd probably NOT be allowed back into future events with your camera (i.e. you'd get kicked out next time for sure), and you surely wouldn't be borrowing expensive lenses from the people who's business you're undercutting. And that brings another point - they were nice enough to let you borrow a very expensive lens, and your "thank you" is reducing the value of their work to $0.00? Wow.
p.1 #16 · Legal question - selling prints from event
relson wrote:
Do you also donate all of the proceeds of your sales to the non-profit organizations the photos came from (like www.toulme.net does)? You mentioned that you "barely break even on equipment", which makes it sound like you are keeping all the money, MUCH different that toulme.net.
I believe I said "the money only goes a very short way toward me breaking even for my own equipment." I have made a few hundred from prints, the equipment costs thousands. If I ever manage to pay it off, I can consider donating money to charity, however, if I can't sell shots, I'll have to sell my equipment, and then the charities won't get any money. Won't somebody please think of the children?
p.1 #17 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Sorry about the above post; i actually deleted it after re-reading your thread above (you quoted Nill Toulme, and for some reason, his website address did not getting included in the quote part). I erroneously thought you were comparing yourself to him by including his website address, thus my post you quoted. Sorry for all the confusion.
p.1 #18 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Alex,
I'd let this drop if I was you. There's a big difference between shooting for fun and shooting to sell, even if you're only selling 1 or 2 shots. Oh, and I assume you, of course, have model releases for all the identifiable people in your shots, right?
p.1 #19 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Legal to sell... well, are there any recognizable persons in the images? If so, you'll need a release. If you are selling to the only person in the photo, they could grant you release... but if there is more than one person in the photo, then you would need releases from both people in the photo. Unless you have releases from the people in the photos you can not legally sell them to other people (editorial sales would be OK though).
Now, where was the event held? Was it on private property? If so, you have some other issues. Was it a park? If so, your city/county may have regulations about businesses operating and permits/fees, etc.
There are reasons why people are the "official photographers". Often there are things required to sell the photos (many of which cost them money). Like it has been said, just because you have a camera doesn't mean you can sell the images. Also, just because they didn't explicitly tell you not to sell them... doesn't mean you can't. Not everyone got the letter, but that doesn't change the facts.
As for giving the images away... yes, you could do that (legally). But, it sounds to me like you could take this as an opportunity to work WITH the organizers/photographers, rather than against them.
p.1 #20 · Legal question - selling prints from event
Let's open it, I've got plenty of time.
I was under the impression that you don't need model releases to sell "art prints" of people who don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy (such as an athlete at a public event on public fields). I wouldn't sell the images for commercial reasons without a release.
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