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  Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison (archived topic)  
Mike Hatam
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icon Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


On another thread I posted ( http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/262493 ) comparing these two lenses (and the Zuiko 21/3.5 and Canon 16-35L), I was asked if I could compare the Zuiko 21 f2 to the Zeiss 21 at "wide open" apetures.

The comparison is below, and I hope it's useful.

The results match my experience - the Zeiss is much better at f2.8 and f4. It's a slightly sharper at f5.6. I find the two to be very close at f8 and beyond in sharpness, with the Zeiss having the edge in CA and contrast, and the Zuiko having the edge in distortion. Since I primarily use these "exotic" MF prime lenses for landscape work, what matters most to me personally is the performance at f8 and f11. For other uses, wider apetures may be more important.

On final note... some of my test shots over the past couple of days have drawn some harsh criticism. I just want everyone to understand - I'm not trying to prove any point with these tests. I'm simply showing test data that I find useful, and may be useful to others.

I continue to own Zeiss, Zuiko, Leica, and Canon lenses. I value all the lenses I own (or I wouldn't own them), and I think each lens has it's strengths and weaknesses. I also don't think that one lens being good means that another is bad. Just because the Zuiko is a surprisingly good performer on the 1DsII, it doesn't mean the Zeiss is any less of a performer, or worth less than it was prior to my test resultsI. Please keep that in mind.

I've also seen several people imply that I'm just posting these tests to profit on my collection of Zuikos. Those who believe that, I'm not sure there's anything I can say to change their mind, nor do I care to bother. I will say this though - my reputation and integrity on this board matters to me, and there is no way I would "doctor" the test results just as a setup so I could sell off some lenses at a higher price. The buyers would figure it out, and my reputation would be shot.

Yes, I will be selling lenses on FM. I'll continue to buy and sell Canon, Zuiko, Zeiss, and Leica lenses. I have a large collection of Zuiko lenses, which I acquired during this 6-month "testing project" and I will sell many of them off, keeping one or two of each model for my own use. I also hope to make some money from all my efforts and risks in acquiring and testing the Zuikos. Any money that I make helps fund my collection of photo gear, which is a passionate hobby for me. Does that invalidate the tests I'm posting here? I would like to hope that it doesn't.

Mike



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Aug 08, 2005 at 03:30 AM
mark1958
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike I have repeated many of your earlier tests between the zuiko 21/3.5 and cz 21/2.8 and could not agree more with your conclusions I also agree with Jack's tests and interpretations. And you both know me as a friend -- even If I do not agree with you, I make it known in a polite and respectful manner. Friends can disagree. THis time I can strongly confirm your conclusions with my own data. I just got my zuiko 21/2 and look forward to trying it out. In fact, I realize that each of the three lenses under question (zuiko 21/2, 21/3.5, and cz 21/2.8) have some plus and minuses. If we could take the best qualitieis in each to make a new lens, I believe it would be worth 3 to 4K. At this point, I do not believe either of these are worth that much. However, there are many things in life I find to be over priced-- and realizing that nothing is truly perfect, I will buy something realizing I am overpaying if it is important to me, and I can afford it. So I have absolutely no criticism or ill thoughts towards folks who pay 3+ K for the CZ21mm lens.

Aug 08, 2005 at 04:20 AM
med007
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike,

I too appreciate your tests. however, it seems to me, irrespective of color fidelity, that the CZ has more color contrast and richness.

I wonder whether you could share files so that I could examine them closely and do print tests for myself.

Thanks for your contribution.

Asher :)


Aug 08, 2005 at 05:16 AM
montespluga
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Thanks Mike, interesting comparison.

Could someone specify the importance of the oly's lens serial number?

Is there a big difference in the 11xxx-series vs the 14 xxxxx or the 16xxxx-series?


Aug 08, 2005 at 08:48 AM
Lars Johnsson
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


That is really soft (Zuiko) at f/2,8. I would never trade my Sigma 20 for that. It must be terrible to use wide open.
The Zeiss is so much better


Aug 08, 2005 at 09:07 AM
RobertP
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Nice test. I've just realized that we've tried out Olympus and Zeiss wides, but what about Nikon's wides? Has anyone tested an AF Nikon 20mm f/2.8D, for example? Nothing can touch the Zeiss, but I wonder how much better the Nikon is than Canon's equivalent?

Aug 08, 2005 at 09:22 AM
zaknat
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike,
I've been following your test posts closely since this subject is of interest to me. It's a shame that you felt it necessary to include the above disclaimer. Testing lenses is a lot of work and posting the results, whether it's for Olympus, Zeiss, Leica or Canon seems for the most part to be a thankless task. Just keep in mind that some of us out here are thankful for your effort. Any accusation that you've doctored the results is ridiculous. I'm a Zeiss 21 2.8 owner/fan and to my eye, your tests support my choice which, by the way is not much influenced by the question of "value". I've generally found that the law of diminishing returns applies pretty consistently when you choose to buy the very best. Doesn't matter if it's photography gear, stereo equipment or bicycle parts.

David


Aug 08, 2005 at 10:08 AM
Andy
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike Hatam wrote:

I've also seen several people imply that I'm just posting these tests to profit on my collection of Zuikos. Those who believe that, I'm not sure there's anything I can say to change their mind, nor do I care to bother. I will say this though - my reputation and integrity on this board matters to me, and there is no way I would "doctor" the test results just as a setup so I could sell off some lenses at a higher price. The buyers would figure it out, and my reputation would be shot.


and really, how much money could one make on such a scheme. that folks would accuse you of this is just silly - you put a lot of time and energy into these tests and we, the forum community, should be grateful! thanks mike....


Aug 08, 2005 at 12:32 PM
Mike Hatam
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Asher - pm me with an ftp site where I can upload the files for you (~14MB per file, so make sure you have enough room), and I'll upload the RAWs for you.

Thanks guys for your comments.


Aug 08, 2005 at 01:49 PM
Mike Hatam
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Lars Johnsson wrote:
That is really soft (Zuiko) at f/2,8. I would never trade my Sigma 20 for that. It must be terrible to use wide open.
The Zeiss is so much better


Lars -

I know we've been through this once before, but I can't let this comment slide. You have to keep everything in context. I'm showing the extreme top-right 600x600 pixel crop from a 16MP 1DsII image.

The Zuiko 21/2 @ f2.8 is clearly inferior to the Zeiss, but I believe it's better than the Sigma 20/1.8 performs at this apeture. I know that you won't agree with that claim, but I encourage you to borrow a 1DsII and take a similar shot with your Sigma at f2.8, and compare. I've done it with mine, and I couldn't even make out the number "36" in the center of this corner-crop.

I love the Sigma - it's a great lens, and the AF makes it a much better "general purpose" lens than these MF lenses, but it is not sharper than the Zuiko 21/f2 - I can assure you of that.

Mike


Aug 08, 2005 at 01:54 PM
Lars Johnsson
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike,

I never did claim that the Sigma was sharper than the Zuiko (read my post). I wrote that I would never trade the Sigma for that lens. And I wouldn't do that. Even you must admit that those pics don't make me run to the shop and buy a Zuiko lens with MF that cost more than the Sigma


Aug 08, 2005 at 02:33 PM
Pondria
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Mike, Thank you for sharing the test results.
I have to ask you two questions;
1. How did you expose, Manual or Av ? I notice that each shot looks exposed differently. When you visually inspect the photos, the exposure difference makes big difference. In this set, the more exposed looks the sharper.
2. How did you make sure that the subject plane is parallel to the film plane ? For wide open aperture in close distance, the parallel-ness becomes critical.



Aug 08, 2005 at 03:12 PM
Mike Hatam
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Pondria wrote:
Mike, Thank you for sharing the test results.
I have to ask you two questions;
1. How did you expose, Manual or Av ? I notice that each shot looks exposed differently. When you visually inspect the photos, the exposure difference makes big difference. In this set, the more exposed looks the sharper.
2. How did you make sure that the subject plane is parallel to the film plane ? For wide open aperture in close distance, the parallel-ness becomes critical.



Pondria - these are good questions. Testing lenses is hard work, and very suseptible to error. It's very easy to screw it up, and after testing lenses for the past few months, I always question the methods of tests posted by others.

1. I exposed manually. I was using controlled studio lighting (Profoto system) in my living room, so I had complete controll of the lighting. All shots are at 1/125s, and I then adjusted the output on the lighting power pack to get correct exposure. It's true that these lenses exposure slightly differently from each other, so I also made a few minor exposure adjustments in RSE when processing the Raws.

2. To make sure the camera was parrallel to the subject, I stood in front of a mirror (the mirror is not visible in the crops, because it's in the center of the image, and the crops are in the corner). By hanging a mirror in the center of the wall (the same wall that the test chart is hanging on), I was able to assure the correct angle. I lined up the Mirror and put a dot on it where the exact center of the sensor should be. I then looked through the viewfinder, lined up the dot with the center of my viewfinder, and made sure that the reflection in the mirror showed that I was aiming straight ahead into the mirror (If I was not pointed straight, the reflection of the lens would not be lined up with the dot).

Thanks,
Mike


Aug 09, 2005 at 03:22 AM
Pondria
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Thanks, Mike !
I've found that each lens expose differently, no matter what I do. In other words f/8 on one lens is not the same f/8 on another.
Thus, almost every time, you need to adjust exposure in RAW converter to level them with histogram. less than EV +/- 0.5 should be enough. If not too much work, can you re-post after "leveling" the exposures.


Aug 09, 2005 at 03:35 AM
xrayvision
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I must admit when it comes to certain things I am an extremist. Although I have been given to say that canons WA offerings are junk next to the zeiss 21 it is only so if one looks at the smallest detail. When I spent $8000 on the canon it was for the purpose of making 17x25 and up prints which when viewed up close would have every detail right out to the very corners in clear view when I wanted it. That is what I see when I am standing there with the camera and what I want on paper. Sometimes it is not important to be so nutty about little details :eyes:
Thats why I also have the 16-35L. When I make a print upsampled and look very closely at it I can most certainly see the difference -depending on the subject- between the two lenses. If my prints were never larger than 8x10 I would never have even pursued the 21 distagon. I have the 1ds2 so that when I am someplace I will likely never have a chance to go again I can bring home the most information for my archive. I am not even sure I this 1ds2 can shoot in jpg. It could be broken that way and I would never know it :D

charlie


Aug 09, 2005 at 12:00 PM
med007
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Exactly how I feel!

Asher ;)


Aug 09, 2005 at 05:26 PM
med007
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icon Re: Zeiss 21 / Zuiko 21f2 comparison


Guy, since you are already Leica-primed, look at the Leica R system. Maybe you can get a good used one!

Read the article in Outbackphoto.com!

Asher :)


Aug 10, 2005 at 04:06 PM

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