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Archive 2004 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.

  
 
DaShiv
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


I've always thought that flourite elements were something of a Canon signature, thus giving them the excuse to paint their big lenses white. But now Leica (yes, Leica) has a new lens using a flourite element:

http://mejac2.palo-alto.ca.us/leica-users/v27/msg07650.html

The optical structure of the LEICA SUMMILUX-M 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. consists
of eight lenses in 5 groups. Glass with anomalous partial dispersion
(elements 2/3) was used to ensure correct color rendition. Lens element
2 is made of a fluorite-type glass while lens element 3 is made from
glass originating from the former Leitz glass laboratory.


Are there other manufacturers that use flourite as well (Nikon, Sigma, etc)? Are there other exotic elements used in current lens manufacturing, such as the radioactive lanthanum elements in old lenses? Does this mean that other manufacturers will be painting their flourite lenses white as well?

By the way, I'm appreciating my 50/1.4 that much more after finding out that this new Leica lens costs a whopping $2500. For a 50mm f/1.4 normal lens. And you thought L glass was bad.



May 27, 2004 at 12:37 PM
mbwkrause
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


This Leica lens is for the M-system cameras and will make every Canon lens in that range look like Wal-Mart (but yes, Leica is a little pricey)


May 27, 2004 at 04:24 PM
AJ Nadershahi
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


Flourite was first used in microscope lens elements in the late 1800's. Pretty much all the major lens and telescope manufacturers use it to provide improved performance.

Canon just makes a note of it as part of their marketing.



May 27, 2004 at 06:06 PM
randyat
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


Flourite is and was never a Canon trademark (i think). But it is a type of a crystal used in making optically superior lenses - canon makes them artificially. Just like UD or aspherical lenses. Any of the lens makers I guess can use flourite lenses if they want to...Its just that canon and leica invested in research into this glass and now they're reaping its rewards.

Correct me if im wrong here....



May 27, 2004 at 09:26 PM
Pic One
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.




:


Sounds like they're remelting the shards of glass from the broken windows of the old lab...

seriously, what does this mean.?



May 27, 2004 at 09:32 PM
daverk
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


Leitz made prototypes of a 50mm f/1.4 ASPH some years ago, back before they spun off the Leica camera division. They used their own glassworks to make certain elements for this lens and others. No doubt Leica still has a lot of this glass stock and plans to use some of it for the new lens.

-Dave-



May 27, 2004 at 10:46 PM
Arka
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


mbwkrause wrote:
This Leica lens is for the M-system cameras and will make every Canon lens in that range look like Wal-Mart (but yes, Leica is a little pricey)


Why is it that the moment Leica makes something and charges their standard exorbitant markup, people proclaim that the Leica product makes everything else in the photo world look like a toy? What a load of $#!T. Optical bench tests do not bear out the absolute supremacy of Leica equipment over Canon or NIkon goods. In fact, the widely respected MTF tests indepently run at photodo.com indicate that the Canon 50mm f/1.4 performs better than the vaunted Teutonic 50mm f/1.4 from Leitz. In fact, Canon's sub-$100 f/1.8 lens is a marginally better performer than the luxury Leica M lens. And the exalted 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux only barely edges out the Canon of the same specification, and is trumped by a 50mm f/1.2 Nikkor.

It's unlikely that the sharpness or color rendition of these lenses could be easily compared, but the ease of use certainly could. Canon and Nikon glass have full time autofocus or manual focus override, and provide a wealth of important imaging data. Leica, the bastion of European craftsmanship and conservatism, doggedly continue to claim that digital is still not 'good enough' to bear the Leica name or lenses. Besides, the users of Leica don't want things like autfocus!

That may be true, but I would argue that those users grow fewer in number every year.

I might even respect Leica's high-nosed approach to technological advancement were it not for the fact that the same Leica which claims digital is not ready for Leica nevertheless takes prosumer quality Panasonic point and shoot cameras and tries to get brand-obsessed photogs to shell out upwards of 2 grand for them.

For the amount of great tech and true optical quality that goes into the Nikon and Canon lenses, I always find it amusing how people still can't get past the Leica mystique. I'm not saying that Leicas are not superb, but let's face it; they are very much behind the technology curve. They are resting on their reputation for excellence in traditional optics, but increasingly they are becoming a niche camera for which pride of ownership becomes more important than functionality.

Arka C.



May 28, 2004 at 02:28 AM
rico
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


DaShiv,

Rest assured this new Leica optic is made out of glass, but containing ions of the element fluorine (F). This optical material is often referred to as fluoride glass, although additional compounds are tossed in - rather like grandmother's soup!

Meanwhile, fluorite is calcium difluoride (CaF2), a simple salt. According to Canon, they offer the only SLR lenses with fluorite, and they make it themselves. Naturally-occurring fluorite was used a century ago in microscopes, but cannot be found in the sizes and quality for our favorite teles.

Sad to say, the price for this 50/1.4 is right in line for Leica. Rather more expensive than my mint Yashica 50/2 ML for $15!



May 28, 2004 at 03:38 AM
vince
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


Canon has their own plants which are used exclusively to grow and manufacture CaF2 crystals for their UD and SUD elements, maybe that's why they are so proud of it. As for sigma using this stuff... I'd be happy if they use real glass instead of perspex or window glass. Btw did you know that some of the finest glass in the world comes from Schott? They supply glass to schneider optics who makes those killer lenses for Rollei etc.


May 28, 2004 at 03:44 AM
rico
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


vince,

Small correction: ultra-low dispersion (UD) and super-ultra-low dispersion (SUD) both refer to glass, very possibly with a chloride added. Fluorite is a crystal, as you say. For those L lenses with a fluorite element, that entire element is one solid crystal of salt. Amazing!

I was looking a Schott's catalog this evening in hopes they would list the chemical compounds for some of their glass products - no such luck. Some of my Carl Zeiss lenses are made from Schott glass. Did you know Schott is owned by the Zeiss Foundation?



May 28, 2004 at 04:11 AM
AJ Nadershahi
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


My understanding is that Flourite is basically a crystal of calcium flouride, and has been used in lenses for quite some time.

While Canon may have been the first to incorporate a flourite element in an SLR camera lens, (1969 with their FL-F300 5.6), flourite elements have been used long before in other optical systems. And is now fairly common lens element with some well recognized names including Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, etc. etc. Since this forum is split mainly between Nikon and Canon, here's a hint; Nikon ED lenses have used flourite elements for years.

Zeiss has been using Flourite elements in some of their camera and telescope systems for an extended period, with one rather intersting concept from the early 90's where rather than leave an air gap between elements they filled it with special oil.

Here is a bit of description of flourite element as described in its use in microsopes:
"fluorite objective - Microscope objective lenses considerably better corrected than achromats but not quite as well corrected as the apochromats. By using fluorite crystals (which have lower dispersion) in place of some of the glass elements, a fluorite objective corrects for spherical aberrations in three wavelengths at considerably lower cost than the apochromats."

In other words, flourite elements are not the end-all-be-all for image quality, rather it allows for a simpler and less costly design. Which is a good thing!

I believe my original comment stands in that it is being used more as a marketing tool rather than a proprietary design. It's one thing for Canon to say the were the first lens manufacturer to incorporate flourite in an SLR camera lens, but another to say they are still the only one doing so.



May 28, 2004 at 10:48 AM
focus
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


AJ Nadershahi wrote:
Nikon ED lenses have used flourite elements for years.


I don't recall Nikon ever mentioned to use flourite crystal in their lens. But they have more than 200 types of optical glass to choose from according to Nikon's brochure. ED glass is till a type of glass, but dosed with special ingredent to alter its property. It's not flourite crystal. While its optical perporities are not as good as flourite, it has some other advantages.

Lens element 2 is made of a fluorite-type glass It looks like a thing more like ED glass rather than flourite. Nothing special here, all lens manufactuers have a pool of glass to choose from. How good of a lens rely on how smarter they could ingetrate the different properities together.

I guess it's not up to Leica to say how good the lens is. We need see the pictures to appreciate it.




May 28, 2004 at 03:52 PM
molson
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


Nikon ED lenses have used flourite elements for years

Seems strange, then, that Nikon's marketing department bad-mouths flourite lenses every chance they get...



May 28, 2004 at 09:31 PM
FLECOM
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Flourite elements in non-Canon lenses.


lordarka wrote:
Why is it that the moment Leica makes something and charges their standard exorbitant markup, people proclaim that the Leica product makes everything else in the photo world look like a toy? What a load of $#!T. Optical bench tests do not bear out the absolute supremacy of Leica equipment over Canon or NIkon goods. In fact, the widely respected MTF tests indepently run at photodo.com indicate that the Canon 50mm f/1.4 performs better than the vaunted Teutonic 50mm f/1.4 from Leitz. In fact, Canon's sub-$100 f/1.8 lens is a marginally better performer than the luxury Leica M lens. And
...Show more


no digital leica? wha?




May 28, 2004 at 09:37 PM





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