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Archive 2010 · Flash Help

kevdav
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p.1 #1 · Flash Help

I am getting more into portrait photography, and I am planning to buy one or two falshes. My questios is which of the following options makes more sence.

1. buy the PocketWizard FlexTT5 and the Mini with a flash (maybe canon 430exI or II)

2. buy a master flash (perhaps canon 580ex I or II) to go on camera and use an off camera slave flash.

also if there are other alternative, please let me know.

Thanks

Sep 08, 2010 at 07:02 AM

Chris Beaumont
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p.1 #2 · Flash Help

You won't find many portraits taken with bare strobes whether on or off-camera, do you own the strobes in question? Something like an AlienBee is a lot more powerful and versatile for the same outlay as a 580.

Sep 08, 2010 at 10:58 AM

cgardner
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p.1 #3 · Flash Help

As Chris says, hot shoe flash isn't the ideal tool for portraiture. The Canon flashes have limited power to drive larger modifiers and no modeling lights to guide placement.

To select the best tools its helpful to understand the cause and effect of creating "soft" looking lighting. The impression of "soft" lighting and 3D shape in a 2D photo comes from contrast clues such as tone of the shadows (controlled primarily with fill) and how harsh and specular the highlights are.

Bounced flash looks softer than direct flash because it causes the light to come from more different directions. If we put an umbrella or big SB on a flash the same thing happens; a lot of light gets bounced around the room and back into the subject from different directions making the shadows lighter and the lighting look softer.The modifiers need to get relatively large before they will start wrapping the light around the features on the face like the nose, creating fuzzy edged shadows. But the impression of softness in lighting actually comes more from the overall tone of the shadow, not the sharpness of their edges with dark shadows making the light seeming "harder" than light open ones. That's where the second fill source comes into play. A second fill source placed near the camera can be used to control the tone of the shadows independently from the light produced by the "key" light creating the highlight pattern on top of the fill.

But there's another important clue in the impression lighting is soft or hard which comes from the highlights. Starting from a baseline of direct flash as larger and larger modifiers are added to the off-axis key light the first thing you'll notice is larger catchlights and smoother less specular skin highlights (i.e. fewer hot spots on shiny skin). It's possible to get very "soft" looking shadows by controlling the lighting ratio of key and fill so the shadows are light in tone, but the character of the highlights on the face will be a reflection of the size of the source and how close it is used (the relative size).

That's where the use of hot shoe flashes as the light source becomes problematical. As we put larger and larger modifiers on the flashes they become less efficient, needing to fire and higher power levels, resulting in waiting for them to recycle. Another important consideration is overheating. Canon flashes are not designed for sustained use at high power levels. That, plus the lack of modeling lights make them a less than ideal choice for serious portraits. That's not to say they can't be used for casual portraits, only that you'll find yourself working around logistical and light quality shortcomings that you wouldn't have with a pair of studio flashes.

A pair of AB800 with combined with a med. SB and 3-4' white umbrella with removable black cover would be a better way to get started. Using the two different modifiers alternately as key and fill, using the umbrella for bounce and shoot-through will teach you much of what you need to know, by comparison, about the characteristics of those sources. That experience will allow making decisions based on experience, needs and goal what to buy next.

Since it's not always logistically feasible to use studio lighting the best solution is to also have a two-flash Canon based solution for PJ-style editorial shooting and candids. For that I find the Master/Slave system built into the Canon flashes adequate if the limitations are understood. For the optical system to work the slave must be able to see the light from the Master and can't be blocked by a big modifier or blinded by direct sun outdoors. The Canon coded pre-flash signaling is also limited by the output of the Master flash, but the 580ex signals via the main flash head and has a range of 40-50' indoors and 25-30' outdoors which is adequate for most shots. That's not to say that radio slaves such as the PW or Radio Poppers aren't more convenient or perform more consistently, but if you are on a limited budget I'd suggest trying the Canon system first then buying the radio triggers when you find you actually need them.

For tips on optimizing the use of the Canon system and other more general lighting advice click the WWW link below. Studio lighting can be a bottomless money pit. See my equipment primer to understand the gear used in a typical studio.

Sep 08, 2010 at 01:22 PM

dpcassil
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p.1 #4 · Flash Help

While i agree about the AB monolights being a better solution as far as light goes, they are a bloody pain to move around on location and you have to get a power pack. I have a friend who shoots with 2 580Ex lights and does great work, he has a friend who shoots with 2 AB800s and does amazing work, his ability to control light is much higer because of the extra power and size of modifiers. The 580ex works great as a comand flash but its line of sight so..... a lot harder to pull of some shots. I vote ABs first but for the ease of mobility 2 580exIIs would be a good place. PW.... dont know, dont own them but since they dont directly impact the image i would make sure you had your light sources solid before spending cash on the triggers.

Sep 08, 2010 at 04:04 PM

Chris Beaumont
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p.1 #5 · Flash Help

If you go AlienBee, cybersyncs have to be the way forward for triggers.

Sep 08, 2010 at 04:27 PM

ScooberJake
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p.1 #6 · Flash Help

If you will be shooting in a location where power outlets are available and those cords won't bother you, then I agree with the others that monolights are a much better way to go.

If that is not the case, then the monolights may still be a better option, due to the reasons listed above. Drawbacks are portability and added cost due to the needed power packs and triggers. If the portability and/or cost is an issue for you, only then would the Canon system begin to make sense.

I personally use the Canon system (2 x 550ex + 1 x 430ex). I shoot seniors, always outdoors, never near a power outlet, often far from the car, and sometimes without an assistant. So for me, the Canon system makes more sense. I know the limitations and I work around them. With the three flashes I have two off-camera light sources controlled wirelessly (and usually in manual) from the on-camera flash. The line of sight is seldom a problem for me. I put my key in a Photoflex medium SB (almost too big for the 550) with their speedlight adapter. This keeps the flash outside of the SB so that line of sight is possible. I had to make my own adapter (very simple) to add on so that the body can be turned towards the camera while the head points into the SB (their system kind of assumes the use of a PW). This limits key placement a little, limits rim placement more (for instance, tough to do a flash directly behind the subject, but possible). In general I am happy using Canon's optical system.

Your options 1 & 2 are about the same price. So if you only need the one light source, option 1 makes more sense (more reliable, unlimited light placement). But if you will later be adding a second light source, then you will have to buy another flash plus another PW. In that case option 2 will probably be the cheaper path, but you will have to live with the limitations.

Sep 08, 2010 at 04:33 PM

kevdav
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p.1 #7 · Flash Help

Thanks everyone for replying and your thoughts.

cgardner, great detailed explanations and infromation. much appreciated.

I have some freinds (female freinds) who asked me to photograph them for their make up and modeling portfolios. the make up shots would be most likely indoors, however the modeling shots would be at the beach and outdoors. This is also a good oportunity for me to build up my portfolio.

I just want to make sure that i have the right tools to do a good job before I tell them that i would photograph them.

portability is important for me for outdoor shots. I would also get some reflectors.
I am leavning towards my 1st option as of right now, and I just have to work with the limitations of flashes.

Sep 08, 2010 at 06:19 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #8 · Flash Help

kevdav wrote: ...I am leavning towards my 1st option as of right now, and I just have to work with the limitations of flashes.

While the 430EX IIs are less powerful than the 580EXs, they tend to work better with the FlexTT5, so you may want to figure that into your selection.

As for doing location portraits with small flash units, if you haven't already done so I recommend you check out this link: http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/1-natural-looking-flash/ as well as the other lessons listed on that page's right-hand sidebar.

Sep 09, 2010 at 12:37 AM

kevdav
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p.1 #9 · Flash Help

Brian, thanks for the link

Sep 09, 2010 at 02:16 AM

kevdav
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p.1 #10 · Flash Help

Is TTL campability worth the extra cost of the PocketWizard FlexTT5 and the Mini, over the non TTL campatables such as AlienBee cybersync system.

Sep 09, 2010 at 07:36 AM

BrianO
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p.1 #11 · Flash Help

kevdav wrote: Is TTL campability worth the extra cost of the PocketWizard FlexTT5 and the Mini, over the non TTL campatables such as AlienBee cybersync system.

If TTL metering were the only thing the ControlTL system offered, it wouldn't be worth it to me...your mileage may vary, as the saying goes.

However the ability to independantly control the output of groups of lights from the camera position, either via a mounted Canon flash or via the AC-3 Zone Controler, makes it very attractive to me.

Sep 09, 2010 at 08:50 AM

ScooberJake
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p.1 #12 · Flash Help

I agree with Brian. As I mentioned above, I usually shoot with both camera and flashes in manual. But I find it very convenient to be able to control the flash output from the camera position. This is a convenience, not a requirement. You can certainly walk over and adjust your flash by hand. And with only one flash, in typical key-light positions, this might be pretty easy (depending on how high you mount the flash).

Sep 09, 2010 at 03:11 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #13 · Flash Help

Don't overlook this advantage of the Canon system or TTL radio triggers vs. conventional radio triggers: High Speed Sync.

Outside in sunlight one gets hamstrung by "Sunny 16" when using conventional flash. If the camera sync limit is 1/250th sec, an aperture of f/11 is needed to expose the sunlit highlights below clipping. That in turn makes it difficult to eliminate distracting outdoor backgrounds with shallow DOF.

The Canon coded optical system allows High Speed FP sync at any shutter speed in TTL or M modes. There's a overall reduction in power and range, but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would. The TTL radio triggers also support High Speed FP sync. Radio Poppers simply rely the Canon optical commands while the PW has its own control method for HHS.

Sep 10, 2010 at 02:41 PM

kevdav
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p.1 #14 · Flash Help

cgardner

Thank you very much I learned alot from your posts.

Sep 10, 2010 at 05:56 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #15 · Flash Help

cgardner wrote:
The Canon coded optical system allows High Speed FP sync at any shutter speed in TTL or M modes. There's a overall reduction in power and range, but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

For somebody asking about the suitability of speedlights for portraiture, it's misleading to let them believe that FP mode can somehow save them power. That's practically an impossibility.

There is a reduction in power.

There is a reduction in range.

Using a wide aperture is a neccesity - as well as having to move your flash closer and using it at full power to compensate for the losses incurred.

1/250s @ f11 translates to 1/2000s @ f4 for the same ambient exposure. Unfortunately, in this same scenario your flash would only be providing the equivalent of around f1.8 and underexposing your subject by roughly 2 and a half stops more in comparison. There's no saving of power here as it would still be operating at 1/1 and your light would need to be extraordinarily close to even match where you first started from.

Even if you were only filling at -1.5 stops in the f11 example, in FP mode you would still be needing more power. It would be exactly the same with any other ratio you care to mention.

Sep 10, 2010 at 06:42 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #16 · Flash Help

Said nothing of saving power only that when HSS is used it's better to use wider apertures so the flash power is used more effectively. That's really the point of using it, for shallow DoF to blur the background making the sharper foreground contrast and attract/hold the attention of the viewer.

Sep 10, 2010 at 08:39 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #17 · Flash Help

cgardner wrote:
Said nothing of saving power .

I'd swear you said '... f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.' and quoted '1/250th sec, an aperture of f/11'

cgardner wrote:
There's a overall reduction in power and range, but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

Sep 10, 2010 at 10:11 PM

BrianO
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p.1 #18 · Flash Help

cgardner wrote: There's a overall reduction in power and range [when using HSS Mode], but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

ukphotographer wrote: I'd swear you said '... f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.'

What, you think an f/4 exposure does require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure? That's sure not what I was taught.

Sep 11, 2010 at 02:18 AM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #19 · Flash Help

BrianO wrote:
cgardner wrote: There's a overall reduction in power and range [when using HSS Mode], but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

ukphotographer wrote: I'd swear you said '... f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.'

What, you think an f/4 exposure does require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure? That's sure not what I was taught.

You'd better check out your use of HSS then..
cgardner wrote: There's a overall reduction in power and range [when using HSS Mode], but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

..referring to the previous example of 1/250s f11

Do you think that magically if you require to use f4 in an environment demanding f11 you can just change your aperture? Maybe you do.

I already fully explained it go and read it again.

Sep 11, 2010 at 09:54 AM

BrianO
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p.1 #20 · Flash Help

ukphotographer wrote: ...I already fully explained it go and read it again.

I think you should read Chuck's post again; I think you're reading more into it than what he's saying.

HSS does reduce flash intensity, and it is therefore better suited for use with larger apertures than smaller ones. By using HSS, you can go to a higher shutter speed, which in turn allows a larger aperture without the ambient blowing out the highlights.

That's all Chuck said, though not so succinctly.

Sep 11, 2010 at 10:16 AM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #21 · Flash Help

BrianO wrote:
ukphotographer wrote: ...I already fully explained it go and read it again.

I think you should read Chuck's post again; I think you're reading more into it than what he's saying.

HSS does reduce flash intensity, and it is therefore better suited for use with larger apertures than smaller ones. By using HSS, you can go to a higher shutter speed, which in turn allows a larger aperture without the ambient blowing out the highlights.

That's all Chuck said, though not so succinctly.

That's not all Chuck said, that was a reply. He obviously intends to use HSS yet has not calculated the loss of HSS and the reduction in aperture and shutterspeed. I didn't misread anything. Here's the quote again.

cgardner wrote:
Outside in sunlight one gets hamstrung by "Sunny 16" when using conventional flash. If the camera sync limit is 1/250th sec, an aperture of f/11 is needed to expose the sunlit highlights below clipping. That in turn makes it difficult to eliminate distracting outdoor backgrounds with shallow DOF.

The Canon coded optical system allows High Speed FP sync at any shutter speed in TTL or M modes. There's a overall reduction in power and range, but its ideally used with wide apertures of f/4 or wider which don't require as much flash power as an f/11 exposure would.

I explained that this was and still is wrong. His example of f11 @ 1/250s and the equivalent exposure @ 1/2000s f4 would result in more power being needed at f4 because of HSS - not a reduction.

Sep 11, 2010 at 11:05 AM

cgardner
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p.1 #22 · Flash Help

My main point was that HHS is a very useful feature when shooting outdoors with flash which is lost when simple radio triggers limited by x-sync are used, and if using HHS, it is best use it with the widest aperture possible because that's the task HHS was designed for.

I did err in stating less power is needed at f/4 vs f/11 in HHS mode. Mea Cupla. In HHS mode the flash acts as a continuous source and shutter speed affects flash exposure just as it does an ambient one. The flash starts pulsing just before the first curtain opens and continues for the 1/300th sec. or so it takes both shutter curtains to pass over the sensor. The curtains move at a constant speed across the sensor regardless of indicted shutter exposure, what changes is the latency or gap between the first and second curtain movement; as indicated speed decreases so does the width of the moving slit formed by the curtains.

In M mode the Canon flash shows the distance at which flash exposure is correct on the LCD display on the back. I've found it to be quite accurate for direct flash. Based on that range display a 580ex at the full 1/1 M power setting, with the flash zoom set at 50mm near the middle of the zoom range, has a max. range for single burst flash of 15 ft. at f/11 @ 1/250th @ ISO 100. When the camera is changed to f/8 @ 1/500th the flash switches to HSS mode (when HSS mode is enabled) and the range drops to 7ft. The transition to HHS cuts the effective range in half. Once in HSS mode opening the aperture and decreasing shutter to keep the net exposure the same has no effect on the indicated point of correct exposure, it remains at 7ft. The net amount of light reaching the sensor remains constant because as the aperture gets larger letting in more light the gap between the curtains gets smaller reducing the time it hits each part of the sensor.

Reversing the equation and looking at relative power levels at a constant distance, in HHS the max range is 7ft which indicates in HSS the flash is working at max. output at 7ft. regardless of shutter / aperture combo to obtain a net "Sunny 16" exposed background outdoors. In normal flash mode, at f/11 @ 1/250th @ ISO 100 a power level of 1/4 is needed to move the point of correct exposure from 15ft. to 7ft. So the flash is working at a 100% of its total capacity in HHS mode but only about 25% capacity in normal mode to expose correctly at 7ft. No real surprise there.... But once in HSS mode the power needed is a constant level regardless of equivalent shutter/aperture settings (where I erred previously).

Granted 7ft. might seem rather limiting for HSS, but that's for a single flash used indoors, not factoring in the affect of the brighter ambient light on the overall exposure outdoors or the use of more than one flash. In practice, if one knows how to use the ambient light effectively outdoors, the range of HSS is more than adequate in many situations, including outdoor portraits.

Outdoors where HHS is designed to be used the flash doesn't need to provide all the light on the face so the effective range in practical terms is greater than the 7ft. the flash display or indoor testing would indicate for a single flash. When lighting a portrait outdoors with my Canon flashes I use two of them in an overlapping pattern of key over neutral fill, just as I do indoors. I've never systematically tested the maximum effective range of my 580ex flash outdoors in HHS mode but from other tests such as this one LINK I had no problem obtaining a correctly exposed foreground from a distance of 10ft with a singe direct 580ex in HHS mode with direct flash and use dual flash with my foam modifiers with HHS within 10ft without any problems with exposure.

While this thread has taken a tangent into HSS don't lose sight of the fact I don't recommend hot shoe flash as the tool of first choice for serious portraits. The show stopper for hot shoe and serious portrait work is the lack of power to drive larger modifiers and the lack of modeling lights to guide placement. With studio flash control of the shadow tone is basically the same, via the lighting ratio, but larger modifiers will render skin highlights better with less specularity. I've learned to work around the shortcoming of power by using smaller modifiers for candid shots and informal portraits. But I know how to control perceived shadow softness with lighting ratio and deal with the consequences of specular highlights caused by the direct flash or small modifier during editing using a variety of retouching techniques.

Sep 11, 2010 at 06:52 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #23 · Flash Help

cgardner wrote:
I did err in stating less power is needed at f/4 vs f/11 in HHS mode.

That's only as I pointed out. Too many people look to HSS as the Holy Grail, and it's nothing of the sort, useful for sure, but not in the way that many people get built up to expect.

Sep 11, 2010 at 08:09 PM

ukphotographer
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p.1 #24 · Flash Help

BrianO wrote:

I think you should read Chuck's post again;

!!!

Sep 11, 2010 at 08:12 PM

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p.1 #25 · Flash Help

ukphotographer wrote:
BrianO wrote:

I think you should read Chuck's post again;

!!!

Laugh yourself silly, but in the first posts we were talking about flash intensity, not power input. In HSS mode, the intensity of Canon flash guns is less than in normal mode. This is indisputable.

Sep 11, 2010 at 11:45 PM


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