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Archive 2010 · D3100 and rolling shutter...

  
 
havannah
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


Hey guys, what have you heard (or read) about the new D3100 full HD video? Does it has the same algorithm of the D3s that improves the rolling shutter issues?


Aug 28, 2010 at 12:08 PM
vovkinson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


nobody's tested it yet. Just wait for reviews.


Aug 31, 2010 at 01:55 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


It's a large CMOS sensor, so with improper technique, it WILL exhibit rolling shutter. It remains to be seen how much is present... the camera hasn't even shipped yet!

FYI, the American Society of Cinematographers recommends that for a camera with an effective 28mm angle of view on 16x9 format (i.e. 18mm on DX or Super35 film), an object should take 15 seconds to cross the frame from side to side to prevent rolling shutter or motion strobing at 24 frames per second.

Most people rush their pans, and should EXPECT choppy pans and jello jiggle when they whip past the camera's limitations. It's simple physics. Just follow the ASC guidelines and you'll be good to go.
http://www.ascmag.com/store/product.php?productid=7600&cat=0&page=1




Aug 31, 2010 at 02:06 PM
havannah
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


thanks Jason! great info


Aug 31, 2010 at 02:49 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


You're welcome. Most people don't realize that rolling shutter issues can be greatly avoided and mitigated with proper technique. The best how-to guide that I can suggest (other than film/cinematography school classes!) is this video here from Panasonic's broadcast camera division:



They explain the difference between a global shutter and a rolling shutter, and how to get usable and professional quality results even in situations where rolling shutter effects should be ruining your shots.

Rolling shutter is an issue inherent to CMOS chips in general, not just Nikon. My $5000 dedicated video cameras at work have the same issue! lol CMOS chips are way cheaper to produce and more light sensitive than CCD chips with, in many cases, better color, contrast and dynamic range.

A lot of the gripes about SLR video quality (aside from true technical limitations like the D90's MotionJPG codec) are due to improper camera handling. The more attention you pay to the things in that video, the more your shots will not exhibit the inherent weakness of CMOS chips: the rolling shutter.

Now kick back, relax with a cold one in your hand, and hang tight for the D3100! I think with the new AVCHD encoding, we're going to see a noticeable improvement in video picture quality from our Nikon DSLRs. The naysayers and "I don't want video" people can stuff it! :-)



Aug 31, 2010 at 05:04 PM
havannah
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


ahaha you´re right, thanks again!


Aug 31, 2010 at 06:31 PM
jonshonda
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


Wayyyyy over my head!!


Aug 31, 2010 at 06:34 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


In layman's terms: Pan very slowly, or pan faster using a wide shot, use a tripod (or other support like a steadicam), and you won't get jello-looking footage or choppy footage when using DSLRs for video. (especially if your DSLR only shoots 24 frames per second, it's less of a problem at 30 frames a second or 60 frames per second)


Sep 01, 2010 at 06:57 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


+1 Jason: the man speaks the truth. There's a LOT of terrible video out there, simply because the basic rules of cinematography are not known, let alone followed. MTV has a lot to answer for, IMHO.


Sep 01, 2010 at 07:14 AM
vovkinson
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


so what ARE basic rules of cinematography ? Or I should follow you link and buy a book?


Sep 02, 2010 at 11:17 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


vovkison, see jason's second point above:

In layman's terms: Pan very slowly, or pan faster using a wide shot, use a tripod (or other support like a steadicam), and you won't get jello-looking footage or choppy footage when using DSLRs for video.

If you pan slowly, the picture will be perfect.

In the earlier post, above, he directs you to a free Vimeo clip that goes into much more detail, and offers practical solutions. hth, kl



Sep 02, 2010 at 05:34 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


Any guidebook by the ASC (American Society of Cinematographers) for DPs (Directors of Photography) should have all of the tips you need in order to get smooth camera moves, steady lock down pans, insight on appropriate shutter speeds to avoid "stobing" motion in the frame, etc.

My 5 minute film school class for you... watch this video first (it's about panasonic gear, but it's universal to all cameras with CMOS sensors that have bayer interpolation... i.e. our Nikon DSLRs):



-Pan VERY slowly if you're panning at all. As I say above, per the ASC's recommendations, you should allow an object about 15 seconds to cross the frame when shooting at 28mm focal length (or equivalent 18mm on DX/APS-C sized sensors/Super35mmfilm) in order to avoid getting the jello. If you're shooting at a normal perspective (45-50mm), 25 seconds to pan a 90 degree arc. If you're shooting at medium telephoto (85-105mm), 50 seconds to pan a 90 degree arc. Shooting long lens (200mm-300mm)? It should take you nearly 100 seconds to pan a 90 degree arc. This usually requires at minimum a steady set of tripod legs (3:1 ratio of what it can hold to what it is currently holding... i.e. 15 lb capacity for a 5 lb load of equipment), a heavily-damped fluid head (at least a 2:1 ratio of capacity to load), and VERY steady hands.

-If you have to whip-pan, or pan more quickly than recommended, use a rack zoom to hide a camera move... i.e. start with a tight shot, and as the subject passes left to right, zoom out while panning with them.

-Lean into the action. If you know a sensor has rolling shutter issues, plan your shot accordingly. See the free panasonic link (above) again for examples of how to pull this off.

-USE STABILIZATION! DO NOT, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SHOOT HANDHELD UNLESS YOU HAVE TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!11one!!!!! This does not mean "Rely on VR"! Seriously, use a tripod, a steadicam, a dolly/glidetrack, or at least a bloody shoulder rig before you complain about the image being wobbly! haha We're all guilty of shooting handheld... but you immediately lose your license to b*tch about the quality of a shot if you choose to shoot freehand instead of using the proper tools and technique. This is what I use at work if I want to get a not-locked-down shot, and even then you still get wobble and bobble:
http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/product_images/altimage/22%2009%202006steadicam_flyer_1.jpg



Sep 02, 2010 at 07:37 PM
mpix345
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


Jason, great info. Thanks. It seems like the capabilities for producing really good video are just taking off.

I have a question more on the other end of the spectrum though. I'd like a DSLR that can shoot video with similar quality to that of my Canon HF-10 HD camcorder. No cinematography here, just family and kid stuff. Usually hand held. I assume that the biggest requirement is smooth and fast AF capability, which I don't think exists yet (though the new Sony A33 and A55 look interesting). D3100 does offer AF, but we need to see how well it performs I think.

What's your take on that?

Thanks.



Sep 02, 2010 at 11:49 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


If I can offer an opinion, the latest Oly EP2's video is very nice, for a still camera (720p in some flavour).

and I believe that the viewfinder (an option) allows MF, but I have not tried this myself.

As well, the Panny GH1 is well regarded too.

Re. AF: even my HMC-152, with AF that actually works surprisingly well, might not be fast enough for the speeding toddler! I will be very interested in other's opinions on this, too.

Side note: most pro cameras are MF, but they have a wide range of controls (peaking, focus on-screen displays, momentary AF that switches to MF to get you in the zone, etc.) that make MF relatively easy to do, compared to consumer cameras.



Sep 03, 2010 at 12:52 AM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D3100 and rolling shutter...



I have a question more on the other end of the spectrum though. I'd like a DSLR that can shoot video with similar quality to that of my Canon HF-10 HD camcorder. No cinematography here, just family and kid stuff. Usually hand held. I assume that the biggest requirement is smooth and fast AF capability, which I don't think exists yet (though the new Sony A33 and A55 look interesting). D3100 does offer AF, but we need to see how well it performs I think.


I found that the Panasonic GF1 and GH1 were both very good at AF with the 14-140mm OIS lens and they did OK with the 20mm f/1.7 pancake prime. Among what's out there right now, if I needed fast AF, no cinematography, SLR image quality for stills, and HD image quality comprable to a 1080p or 720p camcorder, I'd get a GH1 with the 14-140mm lens.


What's your take on that?

I'm a wait-and-see kinda guy... until the D3100 is out, I'm not passing judgment on it. I think this will have vastly improved AF, but I wouldn't rely on it with thin depth of focus!


Re. AF: even my HMC-152, with AF that actually works surprisingly well, might not be fast enough for the speeding toddler! I will be very interested in other's opinions on this, too.

Side note: most pro cameras are MF, but they have a wide range of controls (peaking, focus on-screen displays, momentary AF that switches to MF to get you in the zone, etc.) that make MF relatively easy to do, compared to consumer cameras.


+1. I'm always reluctant to let a video camera roll continuous focus for me, even on my HVX200 cams at work (same AF module as Kit's HMC-152). The only time I use AF on a video camera is if a) I can afford to miss a shot completely, and b) if I'm stopped down to at least f/5.6 where almost everything is in focus from infinity to a meter in front of me anyway. Running toddlers are the most erratic AF subject that I can think of... they're just all over the place! lol



Sep 03, 2010 at 07:02 AM
mpix345
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


Thanks for the replies. I will be curious to see what the D3100 and D7000 bring, as well as the GH2. I can be patient at this point. I'm certain that I'd be better off spending my time trying to improving my technique rather than researching what gear to buy anyway, so maybe I'll actually give that a shot!


Sep 03, 2010 at 10:49 AM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


iI'm certain that I'd be better off spending my time trying to improving my technique rather than researching what gear to buy anyway, so maybe I'll actually give that a shot!

I'm always shooting first and asking questions later! It's the best way to learn. The HF10 that you own currently will deliver some very solid, high quality video. Shoot some stuff, figure out what needs improving and work from there!

DSLR video is going to be much more cinematography-style than any handheld camcorder because it's going to take a lot more thinking to avoid botching a shot (MUCH thinner focus, awkward to handhold/bad ergonomics, poor sound quality without using an external mic + lots of handling noise, and no servo-motor controlled zoom for smooth zoom-ins and outs, just to name a few).



Sep 03, 2010 at 01:59 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · D3100 and rolling shutter...



+1 Jason: the man speaks the truth. There's a LOT of terrible video out there, simply because the basic rules of cinematography are not known, let alone followed. MTV has a lot to answer for, IMHO.


@ MTV! Thanks, Kit!

I think that people should at least try to understand the rules of cinematography before they set out to go break 'em. Take the movie "The Bourne Identity" for example... they had very few shots that weren't handheld, fewer shots that obeyed ASC's panning rules, and even fewer shots that were "properly lit" according to the ASC... but it was a damn good visually appealing movie. By understanding the rules/guidelines of cinematography, you can learn what you can get away with, and how to still get a professionally usable result.



Sep 03, 2010 at 02:02 PM
Avi B
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


But Jason, that's true of photography as well... You gotta know and understand the rules in order to know when to break them.



Sep 03, 2010 at 05:54 PM
jasoncallen
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · D3100 and rolling shutter...


It definitely is true of photography too!

I apply that rule to life. I learn what works, try it my way, figure out what went wrong, then do it the right way with what I learned in mind. I'm stubborn, I guess.



Sep 03, 2010 at 05:55 PM





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