wilrobking wrote:
I just got off the phone with Joe, one of the tech guys from Paul C. Buff, Inc. He gave me some ideas to thoroughly test two which I will do when I get a chance.
One thing I will say about Paul C. Buff, Inc is that their customer service is the absolute best. I did just order their Cyber Commander and the new small receivers that plug into the top of the Einsteins to be able to remotely control the power.
Just remember to plug the receiver into the flash, once you get on location. I was on a shoot yesterday setup the flash with CC and could not figure out why the flash was not firing. The test button fired the unit but the CC would not recognize the flash. It didn't occur to me till this morning while trying to re-trace my steps, I noticed that the remote was not plugged in. All working great now.
Not sure what PCB Tech Support suggested but, if you suspect EMI then one test is to create a shield between the E640 and the PW. Alum Foil will work. Better if you ground it to the light stand which will ground it.
We did some exhaustive testing on this today. Using a longer sync cord on the PW (10') solved all the problems. With a short cord the PW started dropping out at 30'. PW seems to be sensitive to EMI from some speedlites as well. No problems whatsoever with CST and CSXCV module or with CSR.
I'm not sure exactly what range we got but I believe it was approximately the same as PW on a non digital light. The tests were done with the PW receiver at several feet from the E640 . . . it's not a tuning thing. The same probably applies to PW and speedlights. We measured a small amount of radiated EMI from Einstein, but not actually at the PW transmit frequency . . . but not too far removed. It disappeared beyond 4-6 feet. Well within FCC specs I believe.
This stuff is weird . . . my bluetooth and Airport are very weird with Motorola router and 2.4GHz phones . . . all FCC approved devices, but CyberSync is not bothered by by this EMI at all.
Paul Buff wrote:
We did some exhaustive testing on this today. Using a longer sync cord on the PW (10') solved all the problems. With a short cord the PW started dropping out at 30'. PW seems to be sensitive to EMI from some speedlites as well. No problems whatsoever with CST and CSXCV module or with CSR.
I did some tests last night and had similar results. I only have 12" sync cords so I couldn't seperate the PW+II too far away from the Einstein but I did notice that the further away the PW was to the Einstein, the higher the success rate was. When I had the PW about 2-3 inches away, the success rate was about 10% and this was from me shooting about 2 feet away. I extended the sync cord as far as it would go from the Einstein to the PW and the success rate jumped to around 80%, I was shooting from about 10-12 feet away. I didn't try outdoors yet.
I did order the little Cybersyncs that plug into the top of the Einstein and the Cyber Commander. The Cybersyncs are on backorder. I do want to be able to use my PW+IIs since I have so many of them. I don't mind using a longer cord but I don't want to use one that's too long. Can anyone recommend a 3.5mm sync cord that's around 16-20" long? A coiled one would be great.
What is interesting about this is that the E640 is a IGBT controlled monolight and the Speedlites that interfere with the PW Control TL devices are IGBT as well.
Wonder why that was not a problem with earlier PW triggers and Speedlites? Since the PWs are all using the same freq and the Canon 580EXs have apparently been high emitters for some time.
As for source for longer cables try Flash Zebra.
RD, not sure if a metallic hat for PW would be the answer. More likely a PW holder that would shield the antenna from the Mono. It would have to be between the light and the PW.
I wonder what they guys at PW are thinking now about investing in a licensed freq. with these problems while everyone else is using the 2Gig unlicensed freq without a problem.
wilrobking wrote:
I did some tests last night and had similar results. I only have 12" sync cords so I couldn't seperate the PW+II too far away from the Einstein but I did notice that the further away the PW was to the Einstein, the higher the success rate was. When I had the PW about 2-3 inches away, the success rate was about 10% and this was from me shooting about 2 feet away. I extended the sync cord as far as it would go from the Einstein to the PW and the success rate jumped to around 80%, I was shooting from about 10-12 feet away. I didn't try outdoors yet.
I did order the little Cybersyncs that plug into the top of the Einstein and the Cyber Commander. The Cybersyncs are on backorder. I do want to be able to use my PW+IIs since I have so many of them. I don't mind using a longer cord but I don't want to use one that's too long. Can anyone recommend a 3.5mm sync cord that's around 16-20" long? A coiled one would be great. ...Show more →
Maybe Radio Shack? Is there any reason why you'd rather do that and hold on to your PWs than sell them? You can sell all your PWs and make enough money to buy all the CSR+ you need and another Einstein. Haha.
dmward wrote:
Wonder why that was not a problem with earlier PW triggers and Speedlites? Since the PWs are all using the same freq and the Canon 580EXs have apparently been high emitters for some time.
The PW/Speedlite RF problems have been associated with the Flex TT5. PW hasn't changed their frequency from earlier Plus, Plus II or MultiMAX models. But earlier models typically used a 12" sync cord with the PW dangling from a stand, while the Flex attaches directly to the shoe. The small difference in distance makes a big difference in RF interference, as users and PW themselves have found out the hard way.
And Canon flashes have not always been high RF emitters -- the 580EX II really started that.
OP - You can try longer cord from radio shack just to see if that helps. It is around $5 for the 24-30" one. I couldn't find coilded ones when I visited two stores.
dmward wrote:
What is interesting about this is that the E640 is a IGBT controlled monolight and the Speedlites that interfere with the PW Control TL devices are IGBT as well.
Wonder why that was not a problem with earlier PW triggers and Speedlites? Since the PWs are all using the same freq and the Canon 580EXs have apparently been high emitters for some time.
As for source for longer cables try Flash Zebra.
RD, not sure if a metallic hat for PW would be the answer. More likely a PW holder that would shield the antenna from the Mono. It would have to be between the light and the PW.
I wonder what they guys at PW are thinking now about investing in a licensed freq. with these problems while everyone else is using the 2Gig unlicensed freq without a problem....Show more →
The IGBT circuitry has nothing to do with this. The small amount of EMI initially appears to be a result of the Einstein low power 12V switching power supply and possibly a little being radiated by the LCD display. This is pretty standard technology used in many devices. The interface problem appears to be related to the PW sensitivity to interference as demonstrated by similar problems with some speedlights and other equipment. We found in our testing that nothing is being generated at the PW's actual operating frequency.
Both CyberSync and Skyport use the same 2.4GHz range chip, which has excellent rejection of EMI and I have seen no reports of this sort of interference from either, even though the 2.4GHz band is far more crowded than to 300-400MHz range PW is in. However, as stated, Mac Airport and other WiFi devices use the same 2.4GHz band and do have interference problems.
Shielding the PW may or may not have any effect . . . it the problem is coming through the antenna you can't shield it without blocking the desired signal. If the problem is affecting other circuitry in the PW shielding could help, but should be grounded . . . a real pain.
We have found that using a ten foot sync cord completely eliminates any problem - simply spacing the PW away from other devices.
As for using this situation to exploit sales against a competitor, we won't do that. LPA-PW is a good solid company and has contributed much to the industry and shouldn't be dumped on or exploited . . . at least not in my code of ethics. These things happen in many products as more and more RF is used.
Over time we will attempt to zero in on exactly what the PW is sensitive to and improve the situation from our end if possible. Perhaps we can change power supply frequency a bit and/or add some shielding around the source, once we are sure we have it completely identified. But this takes time. Of course, it is impossible to shield the LCD and keep it visible.
There is too much shame and blame in the world so we prefer cooperative solutions and respect among customers and competitors. Meeting FCC regulations can only go so far in preventing localized interference. Even longer distance EMI is problematical as anyone with a cell phone or WiFi well knows.
The frequency bands used by PW and CyberSync are both licensed and both devices are FCC approved. The 2.4GHz band, however, is globally licensed and permitted in all countries, while PW is faced with having to use different frequencies in US and Europe due to different allocation of frequencies on the two continents.
If you really want to see uncontrolled EMI problems, buy a Chinese eBay tripper. Most make no attempt whatsoever to meet FCC specs and produce terrible amounts of EMI outside their operating band as well as extreme amounts of harmonic emission.
Paul were you testing the PW Flex TT5? This is the only PW trigger I have ever heard of having RF issues and that was specific to Canon 580's Speedlites.
PW Plus, Plus II and Max's has never had any issues with any studio flash on the market until this recent reports with the Einstein. I thought I saw somewhere you have PW Plus's , Right? Do you have any idea why this could be specific to your new flash? I'm so curious now I want to buy one just to take a part and have a look inside. It will be interesting to see how this play's out.
10' is a long sync cable. So, no velcroing the PW PlusII to the side of an Einstein, as I had thought of doing.
I'm currently triggering my Ranger RX with a CE PlusII, with a CE Flex 5 on the camera. This is a wonderful way to trigger stobes as I get perfect 1/500th sec sync with my 1D4.
While playing with the flash TT5 offset timings there was still a bit of margin between when the first or second shutter curtin showed, making me guess I could get a fairly clean 1/640th sec if the FlexTT5 had a firmware update that allowed this.
When over powering the sun, having 1/500th sync is REALLY nice. It also helps me reduce camera shake with my 135 & 200.
So, no velcroing the PW PlusII to the side of an Einstein, as I had thought of doing.
Why not try it before ruling it out? As I said above I'm not having that problem with my Pocketwizards and Einsteins.
I'm currently triggering my Ranger RX with a CE PlusII, with a CE Flex 5 on the camera. This is a wonderful way to trigger stobes as I get perfect 1/500th sec sync with my 1D4.
Taking my own advice that is definitely something I will try. Thanks for the tip!
Our initial study of this situation, supported by independent testers, is that the nature and magnitude of 300-400MHz broad spectrum EMI radiation from Einstein is of similar magnitude and nature to that emitted by the Canon 580EX II, as indicated by PW MultiMax "noise sniffer" and by spectrum analyzer testing. We are working on improvements, but such changes take time. In the meantime, it is suggested that a longer sync cord be used as an interface between PW and Einstein.
I just received my Einsteins today and did some testing. Both my PW plus II and TT5's did not play nicely with Einstein beyond a distance of 4-5 ft. However they did work flawlessly with my WL1600. Glad I found this thread, it was driving me nuts.
