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Archive 2010 · highlighting in layers question??
  
 
drbob
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p.1 #1 · highlighting in layers question??


I've seen a tutorial somewhere before (I think linked in FM, but not sure), for portraits where... and my memory may be sketchy: thus the question)...

A 50% gray layer (I think), was underneath the image layer (or was it above), with a certain blend mode. then, a brush was applied to a mask?? to lighten things like teeth or whites of eyes, etc... and could also be used (as in the example I remember), to add dramatic coloring to eye lids.

Again, my memory is sketchy, and I don't remember the link. Any help to the tutorial I speak of... or similar techniques... would be appreciated.
thanks,
bb

Mar 09, 2010 at 04:48 AM
colinm
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p.1 #2 · highlighting in layers question??


Soft Light would be the blend mode you're looking for.

50% gray has no effect, lighter lightens the lower layers, darker darkens the lower layers.

Mar 09, 2010 at 05:01 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #3 · highlighting in layers question??


That'd be a 50 percent gray layer ABOVE set to Overlay Mode, then you paint lighter or darker on that layer or use an adjustment layer clipped to that Overlay layer and use the Layer Mask therein to control where you want your effect. For my money, I'd just rather use straight up adjustment layers usually using Curves, as you have much greater control over how you want areas lightened or darkened - y'know, whether you want to add contrast or change color a bit at the same time.

Mar 09, 2010 at 05:03 AM
drbob
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p.1 #4 · highlighting in layers question??


Thanks both of you. I did do some experimenting and found some of what I was looking for.

Peter... I followed the first half of that, but I confess my skills to "clip an adjustment layer to the Overlay layer and use the mask" are not what they should be.

The more I learn in PS, the more I realize I don't know.

bb

Mar 09, 2010 at 05:25 AM
matthewbmedia
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p.1 #5 · highlighting in layers question??


This is an old trick from early days of PS before there were ADJUSTMENT LAYERS.

Use an exposure layer, and brush its mask on. This is a somewhat more extensible and easy to comprehend solution.

Mar 09, 2010 at 07:54 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #6 · highlighting in layers question??


See: http://super.nova.org/DPR/AdjustmentLayers/

That tutorial shows how to set up separate adjustment layers for lightening (screen mode ) darkening (multiply mode) and enhancing contrast (soft light mode).

Keeping the three adjustments on separate layers allows them to be adjusted with the opacity sliders on the layers independently of erasing the mask which allows for fine tuning and finding the ideal balance.



Mar 09, 2010 at 10:50 AM
Peano2
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p.1 #7 · highlighting in layers question??


cgardner wrote:
That tutorial shows how to set up separate adjustment layers for lightening (screen mode ) darkening (multiply mode).


Predictably, Chuck will disagree, but screen mode and multiply mode are generally not good ways to lighten and darken. Especially multiply, because it doesn't just darken; it also increases saturation.

Better ways:

To lighten (dodge): Open a curves adjustment layer, change blend mode to luminosity, pull the curve up in the middle to brighten everything. Then put a black mask on that and paint with white -- about 10% brush opacity -- to lighten, or dodge.

To darken (burn): Same as above, only pull the curve down in the middle to darken everything. Then when you paint with white, this will darken, or dodge, where you paint. Here's an example of the difference between the two methods:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Mar 09, 2010 at 07:15 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #8 · highlighting in layers question??


There are many ways to the same end result in Photoshop, and your exaggerated example of overusing multiply on a face with red makeup on the cheeks to start is like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer.

In general I avoid global adjustments with tools like curves which affect all similar tones in an image, except in ACR for adjusting overall exposure and contrast before opening the image for local corrections in Photoshop. I use adjustment layers very selectively for localized correction and in moderation. I have another tutorial where I describe my workflow and the context of how I use the tools and why.

Regarding the luminosity method you suggest, I find the skin tone overall to be duller and grayer than the original, which is to be expected from a luminosity adjustment. Its similar to how the dodge and burn tools worked versions of Photoshop prior to CS4, which is why I prefer to use screen and multiply instead. In CS4 the dodge and burn tools function was changed in CS4 to operate similarly to screen and multiply, changing the RGB values proportionally instead of just subtracting / adding equal parts RGB to change the luminosity.

In the linked tutorial describe them the layers this way: "Hard Light adds contrast, Screen lightens and decreases saturation, and Multiply darkens and increases saturation. " More accurately screen cuts RGB values proportionally and multiply increases them. Like all things they should be used in moderation. I show an example of how I use the adjustment layers in my linked tutorial and summarize by saying... "The effect is subtle, just enough to compensate for the unavoidable flash fall-off." Occasionally if I encounter a faces which is excessively red after applying multiply I will just reduce saturation in reds a bit with Hue/Saturation. I also mention that in the tutorial...

The great thing about the internet is people get a range of options to try, all suggested by people who use them and find them to work. Its up to them to try everything and sort out what works for them.

Mar 09, 2010 at 08:25 PM
Peano2
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p.1 #9 · highlighting in layers question??


cgardner wrote:
There are many ways to the same end result in Photoshop, and your exaggerated example of overusing multiply on a face with red makeup on the cheeks to start is like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer.


It isn't anything like swatting a fly with a hammer. It is demonstrating that these are not two ways to the same end. They are two ways of darkening, with measurably different kinds of effect.

I "overused" multiply -- i.e., applied it at 100% brush opacity -- for the same reason I "overused" the curves adjustment layer in luminosity mode: To magnify the difference so people could easily it.

If you want to darken and at the same time deepen color and saturation, multiply mode will do that. If you want to enhance shadows and highlights on a person's face without mucking up the colors, then curves in luminosity mode will almost always yield a more pleasing result.

So, to others (i.e., those with open minds), experiment with these two methods and others besides, including the dodge and burn tools themselves. All will darken or lighten. But contrary to what Chuck says, they are not different roads to the same end. Learn to see the differences and develop skill in using them for appropriate effects, and you'll become a better retouher.



Mar 09, 2010 at 08:41 PM
matthewbmedia
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p.1 #10 · highlighting in layers question??


This is why an exposure adjustment layer is ultimately better. The Exposure slider more or less behaves like a luminosity blend, and the gamma slider behaves like a multiply. (This is a gross oversimplification I know).

Mar 09, 2010 at 09:28 PM
Peter Le
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p.1 #11 · highlighting in layers question??


tag...

Mar 09, 2010 at 10:04 PM
 



Peano2
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p.1 #12 · highlighting in layers question??


matthewbmedia wrote:
This is why an exposure adjustment layer is ultimately better.


I don't think any of these methods is ultimately better than others. Each has its uses, and each affects colors differently.

Exposure and multiply are furthest apart in their effect on color: Where exposure dulls and flattens color, multiply deepens and saturates color.

Exposure also has the greatest effect (of those illustrated here) on highlights. That's something to be wary of when dodging and burning skin tones; knocking down highlights can make skin look dull, just as multiply can push saturation over the edge and make skin look cartoonish.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




My advice is, don't adopt Ford/Chevy loyalty to one tool over another. Learn how they all work, and learn to use them when and where they'll do you the most good.



Mar 09, 2010 at 10:06 PM
matthewbmedia
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p.1 #13 · highlighting in layers question??


This is why there is a gamma slider on the exposure adjustment layer...

Mar 09, 2010 at 10:10 PM
Peano2
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p.1 #14 · highlighting in layers question??


cgardner wrote:
Regarding the luminosity method you suggest, I find the skin tone overall to be duller and grayer than the original, which is to be expected from a luminosity adjustment.


Not to debate with Chuck but just to alert others to his error here: When you reduce luminosity, it does not make color grayer. To make color grayer, you have to reduce saturation. Changing luminosity levels does not affect saturation levels. By the same token, changing saturation does not affect luminosity levels.

Play around in the color picker and learn exactly how these three components of color -- hue, saturation, and luminosity (brightness) -- work.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Mar 09, 2010 at 10:20 PM
Peano2
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p.1 #15 · highlighting in layers question??


matthewbmedia wrote:
This is why there is a gamma slider on the exposure adjustment layer...


Understood. I'm not knocking the exposure method (or any other method). I'm just making the point that there are different ways to darken parts of an image. Each has its own characteristics, and none is better than another. Some work better for some results, others work better for other results.

Mar 09, 2010 at 10:26 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #16 · highlighting in layers question??


Look at the left side of the color picker where there is no color. Now look down. What happens? The tone value gets darker (more gray) until it becomes black. Now look in the upper right corner where the saturation and brightness are both 100%. Now look down. What happens? The value (gray component) increases, just as it would if you started with a can of red ink and added black ink to it to tint it darker.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




The horizontal axis saturation. The vertical axis is value (grayness / brightness). All the colors in the middle of the color picker are combinations of less than 100% saturation and less than 100% value.

Colorspace is described in three dimensions as in the wireframe below:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




The vertical scale, like the earth's axis, is the value or grayness component just as shown in the color picker: the north pole is white, the south pole black. Using the analogy of a globe the most saturated colors are on the surface. As you move closer to the core the colors become less saturated. In the 3D wireframe above in fact that the most saturated hues of SWOP CYMK inks are less saturated than the outer boundaries of saturation in the AbobeRGB editing space. The inks are real measurable entities, Adobe RGB is an arbitrary "working space" boundary for editing color, which was based in part on the need for an editing space large enough to fit the different shapes of RGB monitor and CYMK offset inks used in commercial reproduction at the time.

In the mid-1970s I worked at National Geographic creating color separations for the relief on the NGS maps and illustrations and from there I worked in web offset magazine printing as production manager during the timeframe when SWOP standards for proofing first came into use. The company were I worked was on the committee which developed the standards. I learned about 3D color space mapping during the same timeframe in the 1970s from a the color scientist at DuPont who had invented its Cromalin pre-press proofing system and I taught printing technology for five years at the college level. So do know what I'm talking about here.

Apart from 100% primary RGB and secondary CYMK colors all colors are overlapping combinations, either literally in the case of printing or perception of a RGB matrix pattern in the case if a monitor. If we add equal parts of RGB lights we get neutral tone (gray balance). If for example the red channel gets a bit brighter than the G and B, say 160, 120, 120 what we actually have is a 120,120, 120 gray value with a +40 red bias. If we have 250,120,10 there is a still 10,10,10 gray component in the color.

WIth RGB color the dominant color carries very little detail. Look at channels in a bright red object and you'll see the red channel has relatively little detail. The detail, expressed by darker values of that hue , are created by the other two colors, green and blue. Combined they act to add a gray component to the bright red carried in the red channel. To the extent there is more green or blue in the darker detail the darker hues will shift from neutral towards yellow (R+G) or violet (R+B). There is no black in RGB to decrease the value (darkness) of a hue -- the gray component comes from changing the non-dominant colors in the triad.

In a highly saturated secondary color, like a bright yellow daffodil both the R and the G channels will be maxed out to create the saturated yellow hue leaving only one subordinate channel, the blue, to add the graying component which will change the value of the yellow darker. That's why its difficult to capture the same detail seen by eye in yellow flowers in a digital capture.

CYMK printing is a bit more difficult to wrap the head around. First off, the inks are transparent. They must be because the illuminant must pass through the overlapping CYM dots, bounce off the white paper, back through the CYM ink to meet the eye. Don't think so? Try printing on black paper and see how your color looks

Secondly 100% C+Y+M doesn't produce neutral gray. Set your CYMK preferences to SWOP v2 and then enter R-128, G=128, B=128 into the color picker then look at the corresponding CYMK % C=45% M=37% Y=38% K=2%. More cyan than magenta or yellow are needed to achieve a neutral gray because the ink pigments are cross-contaminated. Change the color preferences to GRACOL and the CYMK % in the color picker will change to C=44% M=35% Y=35% K=8% because that standard set of inks is formulated differently.

As with RGB the lowest common % in a CYM combination represents the baseline gray component in the color. Years ago a clever scientist discovered that darker values of colors such as the C=80% M=60% Y=30% below, which have a significant gray component...



This image is copyrighted by the owner




... can be printed mostly black ink screened to the % dot matching the gray component, with lesser percentages of CYM used to tint it. So that blue above might be printed with 30% black, 50% Cyan, 30% magenta and minimal yellow. Yellow ink in blue mostly adds value (grayness).
The viewer, looking at both images printed with the full CYM% vs the one with the color reduced can't detect the difference when it technique is applied correctly.

That process called "gray component replacement" is commonly used in offset printing and saves a huge amount of money on ink because black is much less expensive than CYM. Reducing the amount of color also makes it much easier to maintain consistent color over a long pressrun.

The same color theory principles apply when editing photos in Photoshop. Skin tones are a combination of RGB and underlying the color are equal parts of RGB, the "gray component". Red is the dominant color. Red in skin highlights when correctly exposed is at about 240 on a scale of 0- 255 so there isn't much multiply will do to it saturate significantly more. Green the second most dominant and blue the least. Any move in Photoshop to darken a skin tone, regardless of what control is used will primarily affect the balance of green and blue to red.

As for multiply, I took the illustration used above:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




And then applied 10-100% of a multiply layer to it in 10% increments using the opacity slider. I saved each iteration and then assembled them together to show exactly how various amounts of multiply affect a hue with varying degrees of saturation (the horizontal color blocks) and varying degrees of value (brightness / grayness):

This is the top row with 100% brightness and varying levels of saturation from 60 = 100%


This image is copyrighted by the owner



Not a huge change....

This is the column on the right where the saturation was kept constant at 100% and the brightness was decreased from 100% to 60%


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Multiply has more of a perceptible effect on colors with increased values.

Like any tool sucess in using multiply on a photo is a matter of skill and experience. I first learned of the technique in a magazine article written by Dan Marguis back in the day before PS had adjustment layers. I rarely use the multiply adjustment layer to darken and saturated normally exposed skin. I use it mostly for toning down distractions in clothing and background and vignetting the edges of an overall dark photo.





Mar 10, 2010 at 03:00 AM
Peano2
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p.1 #17 · highlighting in layers question??


cgardner wrote:
Red in skin highlights when correctly exposed is at about 240 on a scale of 0- 255 so there isn't much multiply will do to it saturate significantly more.


Again, I'm not going to debate with Chuck, but I do want to point out one of the errors in his latest blizzard of words -- an error related to using multiply mode to darken parts of an image.

What Chuck says in the quote above is incorrect, and I'll show you why.

Here is some fairly normal skin tone. If you sample that in the color picker, you can see that the saturation level is only 26%.


This image is copyrighted by the owner



Next, I open a levels adjustment layer and (without moving any sliders) change its blend mode to multiply. Open the color picker and check the same sample point: Multiply mode has boosted the saturation to 45%:


This image is copyrighted by the owner



So, when Chuck says "there isn't much multiply will do to it saturate significantly more," he is plainly mistaken. When you use multiply mode to darken skin tones, it's going to boost saturation. Significantly.

Where he says that skin "correctly exposed is at about 240 on a scale of 0- 255," he is referring to a luminance level of about 240, not a saturation percentage.

Bottom line: Learn what the words mean -- hue, saturation, brightness (luminance) --- and, more important, learn how the various tools affect these variables. And even more important yet, learn to see these effects as you work.

Mar 10, 2010 at 01:10 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #18 · highlighting in layers question??


Peano has a habit of taking phrases out of context and trying to prove I'm wrong in some way...

240 is an 8-bit/color RGB eyedropper value for the RED CHANNEL of an RGB file, not a brightness or saturation value.

In Photoshop color is managed in LABxyz space (blue/amber, green/magenta, Luminance). When basic tools are used in RGB mode (levels, curves, etc.) they directly modify the RGB values in the pixels.

Photoshop as it evolved (I've been using it since V1 in the early 90's long before I ever owned a digital camera) added ICC based color management the ability to make changes at the underlying Lab color management level while still in RGB mode, elminating the need to change file mode from RGB > Lab > RGB. That's what is happening when an adjustment layer mode is changed to "luminosity". Even though the editing is being done in RGB the input manipulates L at the mangement / translation space level, which then translates it into the appropriate RGB values (0-255) for each channel.

Peano is beating me up here for suggesting Multiply as an editing tool by using examples of how it can do bad things in WAYS I PERSONALLY NEVER USE IT!!!. I simply would not use it on the skin tone in the example he is using because there's really nothing wrong with it to start with. Its like accusing me of putting a hole in the wall by trying to hang a picture hanger with a 12-lb. sledgehammer when I'd never use a hammer that big for that job.


Mar 10, 2010 at 02:06 PM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #19 · highlighting in layers question??


It's always LWC.

Mar 10, 2010 at 02:46 PM
Peano2
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p.1 #20 · highlighting in layers question??


cgardner wrote:
240 is an 8-bit/color RGB eyedropper value for the RED CHANNEL of an RGB file, not a brightness or saturation value.

240 is indeed a brightness value, a luminance level expressed here as a brightness (B) percentage -- 94% -- in the color picker:


This image is copyrighted by the owner



94% X 256 = 240. The luminance (brightness) level of the color in this particular case has RGB values of 240.190.173. (The saturation level is in the S window: 28%).

The luminance (brightness) value here is not exclusively the value for the red channel as Chuck suggests. It is the luminance value of the composite RGB color.

To see that this is the case, push the hue slider up to a very different hue to change the red value. Here the color is composed of RGB values of 173.222.240. But notice that the luminance level remains unchanged at 94% (luminance level 240 out of 256), and saturation remains unchanged at 28%.


This image is copyrighted by the owner



Peano is beating me up here for ...
No, Peano is merely correcting your errors, so don't take it personally. Many people reading this thread are trying to learn about color. Telling them that 240 is "not a brightness value" is misinforming them. 240 is a luminance (brightness) level not just of the red channel but of the composite RGB color.

Mar 10, 2010 at 03:09 PM
Eyeball
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p.1 #21 · highlighting in layers question??


Well, I'm just glad you guys aren't debating or anything.

Seriously though, I think this dialogue is useful, not for determining which method is "best", but to help folks understand the differences and think about what tool they want to use for a particular task.

I also think this points out some of the difficulty that software developers like Adobe have when addressing these things. I have read through several threads on other forums where members of the Adobe team have talked about why they made certain decisions like, for example, how the tone curve reacts in ACR and Lightroom. Their comments are usually similar to "well, we tried a pure luminosity change but it produced a result that we knew would not be acceptable to the majority of Photoshop users." In the case of ACR/LR, I believe they ended up with a hybrid solution that now opens them up to attacks from both camps. And luminosity vs. saturation is only ONE of the controversial areas. If you really want some fun, go find a thread where a bunch of color management gurus have gotten together to discuss the pros and cons of "hue twists".

Why am I mentioning this related to THIS thread? Because even though doing adjustments on a Luminosity layer (or perhaps on the L layer of LAB) SOUNDS like the right way to do things (adjusting brightness or contrast without changing saturation), the result sometimes looks, well, WRONG. As an example I look at the strip of adjustments to the girls face that Peano posted and I bet if you asked a group of people which adjustment was the most PLEASING, the majority would say the multiply one.

Another example, going back to ACR and Lightroom, is the different ways that those programs process a "lens" vignette vs. a "post-crop" vignette. The "lens" vignette applies a multiply-like adjustment to form the vignette and the "post-crop" applies a luminosity-like adjustment. Which effect do many people prefer? The multiply-like adjustment of the lens vignette. In fact, I have seen tips from PS gurus recommending that users wanting a decent post-crop vignette bring the image into PS and apply the vignette there USING THE MULTIPLY BLEND MODE. I also believe I read a rumor somewhere that Adobe may be changing the behavior of the post-crop vignette tool in the new versions of LR and ACR because of this preference by the majority of users.

I am certainly not saying that doing adjustments in Luminosity mode is "BAD" either. Sometimes it is very useful to make those adjustments separate from hue and saturation. The important thing is to learn how the various tools work and when to use them to produce the results we are after.

Mar 10, 2010 at 03:37 PM
Peano2
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p.1 #22 · highlighting in layers question??


Eyeball wrote:
even though doing adjustments on a Luminosity layer (or perhaps on the L layer of LAB) SOUNDS like the right way to do things (adjusting brightness or contrast without changing saturation), the result sometimes looks, well, WRONG. As an example I look at the strip of adjustments to the girls face that Peano posted and I bet if you asked a group of people which adjustment was the most PLEASING, the majority would say the multiply one.


My purpose in that illustration wasn't to render a pleasing result. Nor was it to suggest that one method is "better" than the other. It was to show, by exaggeration, the difference between darkening via luminance mode and darkening via multiply mode.

When using these blend modes to (for instance) deepen shadows on a model's face, in neither case would you apply the effect at 100%. You'd paint it on with a low-opacity brush, and only where you wanted deeper shadows.

In some cases you might want the increased saturation that multiply causes. In others you might want to decrease brightness without increasing saturation. It depends, as always on the image and on what result you're after.

Mar 10, 2010 at 03:56 PM




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