D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

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Archive 2010 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

msauk
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p.2 #1 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

J4644 wrote:
Hi Matthew,

You are probably right. I would love to see actual prints from both at a decent size to really compare them.

Jim

Jim,

I printed a few a year or two ago. One was at 3200 ISO and one was at 800 ISO.

They were 8x10 (which is bigger then most print anyways) and to be honest, I could not tell unless the image was mere inches away from my face.

That was one reason I pretty much stopped doing noise stuff to my images a year back, just wasn't worth it

Feb 09, 2010 at 11:34 PM

luketrot
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p.2 #2 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

From my experience our customers are not nearly as sensitive to noise as they are to color balance and sharpness.

Feb 09, 2010 at 11:43 PM

PShizzy
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p.2 #3 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

msauk wrote:
Jim,

I printed a few a year or two ago. One was at 3200 ISO and one was at 800 ISO.

They were 8x10 (which is bigger then most print anyways) and to be honest, I could not tell unless the image was mere inches away from my face.

That was one reason I pretty much stopped doing noise stuff to my images a year back, just wasn't worth it

Ya, there are two major reasons prints tend to look less noisy than what we see on screen

1) screens are additive light, which means they emit light. LCD screens especially tend to have bright blacks, which makes noise more apparent than something that is subtractive light (where the source emits no light and instead needs light to bounce off it in order for it to be visible) such as a print. This accounts for a huge difference

2) prints, be it inkjet, giclee (french word for inkjet), thermal, etc, all have bleeds. This is why they mention sharpening for print differently than sharpen for web. Basically print bleeds will reduce sharpness. And this bleed mostly affects thin edges and. . . noise.

Ok back on topic:

Like Paul said, John put in the work. He has skills yes, but they are honed and crafted from years of experience. Talent is great but it has to be put to work to get somewhere.

Max

Feb 09, 2010 at 11:47 PM

JohnPinette
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p.2 #4 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

Great series in dim lighting John!

These new bodies are great. As mentioned I am playing with both a D3S and Mark IV. I will post some gymnastics images from both up soon. I can tell you that my at home tests at ISO 12800 put the Mark IV a heck of a lot closer to the D3S than I was expecting.

John C. (bluereptile) and myself both sell images by putting them on laptops straight out of the camera. So they have to look good there. We also display them on a 46" high def monitor which often gets view from a few feet away. Flaws in your images most definitely show up on that monitor. In addition to prints we sell a ton of CDs. We do some basic processing of the images that go on the CD and have an extremely good reputation regarding the CD's. We have many repeat customers that buy CD's before they even see the photos. So having images that look good on a monitor is a necessity for us, whether at the meet to get the sale, or on the CD after the sale. So the reduced noise, and improved color fidelity, sharpness and detail at high ISO out of these new bodies is of great value to us.

By the way Paul, I replaced the shutter on my Mark III at 785,000 clicks about 50,000 clicks ago. I put another 750,000 clicks on my Mark II's. Most of these are Gymnsatics pics...so while I might not be as accomplished as Mr. Reptile, at least I'm in the same ball park when it comes to getting a sore trigger finger

Feb 10, 2010 at 01:25 AM

BlueReptile
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p.2 #5 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

run53 wrote:
The lack of light has not negatively impacted your ability to get great gymnastic images. They are fantastic!

Now you know how difficult it is for us mere mortals shooting our kids in the dungeons. The light you had is still better than I usually get at my typical HS or USAG meets (girls level 9). My typical settings are 1/320, ISO 3200, f/2.

Ha thanks!

I do consider myself a "mere mortal" because in a given season I probably shoot close to 20,000 kids in local gyms with challenging lighting like yours. I shoot as many USAG premier events as they ask me to, but there are less than a handful in a given season. Spending 90% of my time shooting in dungeons does make shooting these premier events seem like a breeze.

Payne Whitney Gymnasium at Yale is probably the worst place I have ever shot in. Every other frame is Pink, Green, Dark, Bright...

-John

Feb 10, 2010 at 03:24 AM

BlueReptile
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p.2 #6 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

P Alesse wrote:
Please understand that BlueReptile is shooting the premier events BECAUSE of his years and time spent as a "mere mortal" shooting dungeons and youth gymnastics. There isn't a person on this forum that has near the shutter clicks in darkness, which I guess to be over 1 million, as John Cheng.

And a message to all those other "mere mortals" who think you get into these events by luck. It aint so. John has paid his dues exponentially over all others for many, many years. Please do not EVER diminish or make light of that fact. Not in gest. Not as a sidenote. Not sarcastically. Not EVER.

Thanks bud!

Just trying to add up all the clicks from 10D, 2 x MKII, 2 x MK3, D700, 2 x D3, D3s, and holy cow, it is close to a million!

Feb 10, 2010 at 03:27 AM

BlueReptile
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p.2 #7 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

luketrot wrote:
From my experience our customers are not nearly as sensitive to noise as they are to color balance and sharpness.

When I went from MKII to MKIII, the parents wouldn't know why, but they just knew the pictures looked better, mostly due to better skin tones at high ISOs. Same feedback when I went from MKIII to D3. As long as you shoot tight, have face, good skintone and somewhat sharp, the parents really don't mind (and really don't see) the noise at all...

Feb 10, 2010 at 03:34 AM

BlueReptile
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p.2 #8 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

JohnPinette wrote:
Great series in dim lighting John!

These new bodies are great. As mentioned I am playing with both a D3S and Mark IV. I will post some gymnastics images from both up soon. I can tell you that my at home tests at ISO 12800 put the Mark IV a heck of a lot closer to the D3S than I was expecting.

John C. (bluereptile) and myself both sell images by putting them on laptops straight out of the camera. So they have to look good there. We also display them on a 46" high def monitor which often gets view from a few feet away. Flaws in your images most definitely show up on that monitor. In addition to prints we sell a ton of CDs. We do some basic processing of the images that go on the CD and have an extremely good reputation regarding the CD's. We have many repeat customers that buy CD's before they even see the photos. So having images that look good on a monitor is a necessity for us, whether at the meet to get the sale, or on the CD after the sale. So the reduced noise, and improved color fidelity, sharpness and detail at high ISO out of these new bodies is of great value to us.

By the way Paul, I replaced the shutter on my Mark III at 785,000 clicks about 50,000 clicks ago. I put another 750,000 clicks on my Mark II's. Most of these are Gymnsatics pics...so while I might not be as accomplished as Mr. Reptile, at least I'm in the same ball park when it comes to getting a sore trigger finger

I have a strong suspicion you will be using both MKIV and D3s when we go to Maryland this weekend John. It'll be a good comparison for both bodies under real life shootings.

But 785k clicks on a single shutter on the MarkIII is impressive. I put over 260k clicks on the D700 in 16 months, and it's still going strong but no where near your MKIII milage.

Like John said we do our best to get it right in camera, especially now we throw the shots almost real-time to the 46" LCD on the floor. Last meet I covered I had more parents taking a picture of the LCD (and probably with their kid on it) than at any other meets. Luckily the photo fees were already built-in to the meet where every kid got a disc!

Feb 10, 2010 at 03:44 AM

run53
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p.2 #9 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

P Alesse wrote:

Please understand that BlueReptile is shooting the premier events BECAUSE of his years and time spent as a "mere mortal" shooting dungeons and youth gymnastics. There isn't a person on this forum that has near the shutter clicks in darkness, which I guess to be over 1 million, as John Cheng. And a message to all those other "mere mortals" who think you get into these events by luck. It aint so. John has paid his dues exponentially over all others for many, many years. Please do not EVER diminish or make light of that fact. Not in gest. Not as a sidenote. Not sarcastically. Not EVER.

Sorry, no offense intended here. My post was actually intended to be a compliment but obviously wasn't taken as such. I'll try to do a better job articulating my compliments next time.

I went back and re-read my post and now knowing a little more about John's history, I can see where my comments could have been taken as insensitive. Again, not the intent, so I apologize.

Edited on Feb 10, 2010 at 03:04 PM · View previous versions

Feb 10, 2010 at 01:47 PM

JohnPinette
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p.2 #10 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit that my daughter put about at least 100K clicks and probably closer to 200K clicks on my Mark II's and III. I miss her at the meets while she's off having fun at college...

John

BlueReptile wrote:

But 785k clicks on a single shutter on the MarkIII is impressive. I put over 260k clicks on the D700 in 16 months, and it's still going strong but no where near your MKIII milage.

Like John said we do our best to get it right in camera, especially now we throw the shots almost real-time to the 46" LCD on the floor. Last meet I covered I had more parents taking a picture of the LCD (and probably with their kid on it) than at any other meets. Luckily the photo fees were already built-in to the meet where every kid got a disc!

Feb 10, 2010 at 03:00 PM

schristie11
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p.2 #11 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

someone told me that the D3 doesnt have continuous AF, so how does a nikon shooter track moving targets at 10 FPS?
What does it do when you hold the button down at 10 FPS while tracking a moving trarget?

Jun 22, 2010 at 04:32 AM

gman1339
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p.2 #12 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

schristie11 wrote:
someone told me that the D3 doesnt have continuous AF, so how does a nikon shooter track moving targets at 10 FPS?
What does it do when you hold the button down at 10 FPS while tracking a moving trarget?

The D3/D3s shoot at 9 FPS with continuous auto focus tracking. When you switch to DX mode and go to 11 FPS focus is not updated when shooting a continuous burst.

Jun 22, 2010 at 02:31 PM

Victor Go
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p.2 #13 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

Are there any major difference shoot male and female Gymnast?

Jun 22, 2010 at 05:21 PM

P Alesse
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p.2 #14 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

gman1339 wrote:
schristie11 wrote:
someone told me that the D3 doesnt have continuous AF, so how does a nikon shooter track moving targets at 10 FPS?
What does it do when you hold the button down at 10 FPS while tracking a moving trarget?

The D3/D3s shoot at 9 FPS with continuous auto focus tracking. When you switch to DX mode and go to 11 FPS focus is not updated when shooting a continuous burst.

Wow, is that true? That's news to me, but I know that I often shoot in DX and it tracks fine. What gives?

Jun 22, 2010 at 05:30 PM

gman1339
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p.2 #15 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

P Alesse wrote:
gman1339 wrote:
schristie11 wrote:
someone told me that the D3 doesnt have continuous AF, so how does a nikon shooter track moving targets at 10 FPS?
What does it do when you hold the button down at 10 FPS while tracking a moving trarget?

The D3/D3s shoot at 9 FPS with continuous auto focus tracking. When you switch to DX mode and go to 11 FPS focus is not updated when shooting a continuous burst.

Wow, is that true? That's news to me, but I know that I often shoot in DX and it tracks fine. What gives?

Yep, it's true. Once you set it to 11 FPS you lose AF tracking. If you set it to 10 FPS or below in DX mode you still get AF tracking.

Here is the link at dpreview...

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3/

It's listed under the key features.

"Ten / eleven frames per second continuous in DX-crop mode (AF / no-AF)"

Jun 22, 2010 at 05:58 PM

John P Mulgrew
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p.2 #16 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

Nice shots and between either body it's amazing how much nicer everything looks with the higher ISO. Ain't technology grand? Of course technology doesn't look through the viewfinder either

Jun 22, 2010 at 06:05 PM

Hammy
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p.2 #17 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

gman1339 wrote:

The D3/D3s shoot at 9 FPS with continuous auto focus tracking. When you switch to DX mode and go to 11 FPS focus is not updated when shooting a continuous burst.

According to the manual, if you keep the default high speed mode above 9fps (only available in DX mode) then you lose AF tracking. However, if you set a Custom Function appropriately, you can still maintain AF at 9fps:

Page 88 of D3 manual:
http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/noprint/D3_en_noprint.pdf
"In continuous high speed mode, the maximum frame rate for FX (36x24) format and 5:4 (30x24) images is 9fps. The maximum frame rate for DX (24x16) format images can be chosen from 9, 10 and 11fps using Custom Setting d2 ([Shooting Speed], pg. 320) > [Continous high-speed] (note that at 10 and 11fps, focus will be fixed at the value for the first shot... as will exposure)"

So it seems that its not DX mode that turns off AF mode - but rather the higher frame rates (10 and 11fps capable in DX mode)

Jun 22, 2010 at 06:27 PM

gman1339
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p.2 #18 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

Hammy wrote:
gman1339 wrote:

The D3/D3s shoot at 9 FPS with continuous auto focus tracking. When you switch to DX mode and go to 11 FPS focus is not updated when shooting a continuous burst.

According to the manual, if you keep the default high speed mode above 9fps (only available in DX mode) then you lose AF tracking. However, if you set a Custom Function appropriately, you can still maintain AF at 9fps:

Page 88 of D3 manual:
http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/noprint/D3_en_noprint.pdf
"In continuous high speed mode, the maximum frame rate for FX (36x24) format and 5:4 (30x24) images is 9fps. The maximum frame rate for DX (24x16) format images can be chosen from 9, 10 and 11fps using Custom Setting d2 ([Shooting Speed], pg. 320) > [Continous high-speed] (note that at 10 and 11fps, focus will be fixed at the value for the first shot... as will exposure)"

So it seems that its not DX mode that turns off AF mode - but rather the higher frame rates (10 and 11fps capable in DX mode)

Yes, it is the higher frame rate that kills your auto focus. I shoot my gripped D700 in DX mode at 8 FPS with auto focus tracking all the time.

Jun 22, 2010 at 06:38 PM

rsolti13
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p.2 #19 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

10000 ISO

This is almost unfair. WOW!!! These shots look great. John you captured some great shots in an extremely tough situation. The camera sure helps. Those shots look like my old D70 at ISO 800.....HAHA!!!

Jun 22, 2010 at 08:00 PM

P Alesse
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p.2 #20 · D3s and ISO10000 Gymnastics

Why is there a need for 11 FPS anyway if it doesn't track the frames? Kinda defeats the purpose of 11 FPS, no?

Jun 22, 2010 at 08:22 PM

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