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Archive 2010 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE
  
 
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


I had a look at the exif of some of your 50N pics, it says all have been focused at a distance of 5.86m, which could be correct on the Tong image but certainly not on the church images. Maybe you have to remove that tape you put there 2 months ago ;-)

At least before sending it away I would ask Conurus if they can say something about it. Just looking at their site may tell you something

http://support.conurus.com/viewtopic.php?t=487&sid=736892a18e37ec344759a6b743e2d929



Feb 13, 2010 at 11:18 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Jorge Torralba wrote:
Wayne,

I have all sorts of shots with the 50 f2. Is there a particular type of example you would like to see? Now you have my curious and going through some of my old shots


Jorge,

Like Boris mentioned, if you have a shot of a side of a building where the extreme corners of the shot are still on the side of the building and you take the shot at f4 or f2.8 or f2, check the extreme corner to see if its blurry.

Boris, I don't think your new copy will be any different as the MTF shows this extreme corner behavior. But good luck.



Feb 14, 2010 at 01:49 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Andi Dietrich wrote:
I had a look at the exif of some of your 50N pics, it says all have been focused at a distance of 5.86m, which could be correct on the Tong image but certainly not on the church images. Maybe you have to remove that tape you put there 2 months ago ;-)

At least before sending it away I would ask Conurus if they can say something about it. Just looking at their site may tell you something

http://support.conurus.com/viewtopic.php?t=487&sid=736892a18e37ec344759a6b743e2d929



Andi,
What utility are you using to view the distance info in the exif?
I will post my problem on Conurus site.



Feb 14, 2010 at 02:42 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


erichard wrote:
If it's still under warranty with Conurus, they should get that straight, as this is what they are providing in particular, the EF mount. I'm surprised it made it out of Vancouver that way.


I jus posted this problem on Conurus website, so see what he has to say.
Its not a big problem since I rarely shoot a distant landscape or subject at f2.8 or wider.
Usually, I am shooting closer than infinity when shooting wide open.
But would be nice if there is an easy fix to the problem.

Hopefully, Lotusm50 will unpack his copy of the lens soon so he can tell me if his copy doesn't have this problem.



Feb 14, 2010 at 05:49 AM
erichard
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


If only for the resale value, you want it corrected under the warranty period, though.


Feb 14, 2010 at 06:35 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


wayne seltzer wrote:
What utility are you using to view the distance info in the exif?

I use website for EXIF: http://regex.info/exif.cgi . I have also created Javascript bookmark (this website has instructions for that), which sends automatically the image to this website, image has to be opened so that's it's directly on browser window, not on webpage. This works from my desktop, personal laptop and work laptop even all have different operating systems.

For example your Tong Dumpling Pot the summary says (there are few pages below that details):



Feb 14, 2010 at 07:02 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Got this info from my Contax N 50/1.4 test shot at f2:

Basic Image Information
Camera: Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III
Lens: 50mm f/1.4
Exposure: Auto exposure, Aperture-priority AE, 1/640 sec, f/2, ISO 200
Flash: none
Focus: At 4294967295m, with a depth of field from about 312m to infinity
Date: December 29, 2009 2:23:47PM (timezone not specified)
(1 month, 15 days, 8 hours, 52 minutes, 17 seconds ago, assuming an image timezone of US Pacific)
File: 660 × 435 JPEG
184,966 bytes (0.18 megabytes) Image compression: 79%
Color Encoding:
WARNING: Embedded color profile: “ProPhoto/ROMM”
All Windows web browsers (except Safari) and many Mac web browsers ignore an embedded color profile, meaning users of those browsers will see the wrong colors for this image.
Images for the web are most widly viewable when in the sRGB color space and with an embedded color profile. See my Introduction to Digital-Image Color Spaces for more information.


Thanks for the info Samuli!



Feb 14, 2010 at 07:23 AM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


wayne seltzer wrote:
Hopefully, Lotusm50 will unpack his copy of the lens soon so he can tell me if his copy doesn't have this problem.



Well, we're packing the moving truck today, and I start driving across the country mid-day Monday. Might get a chance on Monday night, if not then, Wednesday night the earliest, after I arrive at my destination. This is one of the lenses I am not entrusting to the moving truck.

Not looking forward to the 1865 mile drive. I expect to drive into a snowstorm on Monday.




Feb 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Lotusm50 wrote:
Well, we're packing the moving truck today, and I start driving across the country mid-day Monday. Might get a chance on Monday night, if not then, Wednesday night the earliest, after I arrive at my destination. This is one of the lenses I am not entrusting to the moving truck.

Not looking forward to the 1865 mile drive. I expect to drive into a snowstorm on Monday.



So you will have some of your camera gear handy to take a lot of shots on your cross America journey? Have a safe trip and good luck with the weather/snowstorm.



Feb 14, 2010 at 05:22 PM
Bobu
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Today I tested another 50MP. The results are pretty much the same, maybe slightly better:

50MP @2.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






50MP @2.8 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






50MP @4.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






50MP @5.6 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






50MP @8.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






50MP @11 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






Here are two shots with the 3.4/35-70 and the 100MP, wide open, as a comparison:

35-70 @3.4 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






100MP @2.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner):






You have to stop down the 50MP to at least f/8.0 to reach the wide open corner performance of the 35-70 or the 100MP.

I wanted to know, if this has something to do with field curvature of the 50MP. So I did another test, were I focused with 10x live view on the lower right corner:

50MP @2.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner, focus on the corner):






50MP @2.8 (100% crop of the lower right corner, focus on the corner):






50MP @4.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner, focus on the corner):






50MP @5.6 (100% crop of the lower right corner, focus on the corner):






50MP @8.0 (100% crop of the lower right corner, focus on the corner):






As you can see, there is a slight effect of field curvature. But even with focussing on the corner, you have to stop down to at least f/5.6 to reach good corner performance.
Since the the 50 MP is in all other aspects a really great lens, I will keep it and will use it mainly at f/8 or f/11 for landscape shots. Center performance, contrast and bokeh of this lens is very good, even wide open.

Boris





Feb 23, 2010 at 03:12 PM
 

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Mike K
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Boris,
Judging by your original FF image, these crops represent the last 20% of the frame heading into the extreme corner? Thus the gradation of sharpness represent softness in the last 10% of the extreme corner. This is a pretty small fraction of the frame, as even the edge of the frame horizontal to the center should be pretty decent.
What if you used the Zeiss Distagon 35 f/2 and cropped to get a comparable fov?
Mike K



Feb 23, 2010 at 10:00 PM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Mike K wrote:
Boris,
Judging by your original FF image, these crops represent the last 20% of the frame heading into the extreme corner? Thus the gradation of sharpness represent softness in the last 10% of the extreme corner. This is a pretty small fraction of the frame, as even the edge of the frame horizontal to the center should be pretty



Yes, quite small fraction of the frame. This is much ado about very, very little, IMHO. This is the least seen, least used, and often cropped 1% (or less) of the frame. As mentioned before, nearly ALL 50mm standard lens exhibit this, why this particular 50mm should be called to task for it is mind boggling.

Comparing it to a 100mm lens is useless. If you need a 100mm lens use a 100mm lens, if you need a 50mm use a 50mm. The 50mm MP is incomparable across 99% of the frame and merely comparable to all other 50mm's over the last tiny fragment of the frame. To dismiss the lens for this is a kin to throwing the baby out with the bath water. Even if the 35-70 might be a touch better in the absolute corner than the 50 MP, the performance of the 50 MP over 99+% of the frame totally and obviously dominates the old zoom. Would you really prefer to use the 35-70 over the 50MP?! I still don't get the point of all this. It's not perfect? No lens is. That is to be expected. So far we've seen nothing that isn't shown in the published MTF's. IMHO, you spent a lot of time and effort obsessing over this for very little insight or gain. If you don't want to use it because of this, that is your prerogative, but you would be leaving a lot of performance on the table that you can't get in another 50mm lens -- performance in areas of the frame that matter a great deal more than the often-unseen absolute corner. Use the lens for real photographs rather that brick walls and fences and it will never fail to impress.




Feb 24, 2010 at 06:25 AM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


wayne seltzer wrote:
So you will have some of your camera gear handy to take a lot of shots on your cross America journey? Have a safe trip and good luck with the weather/snowstorm.



Trip was delayed a few more days, but I finally made it and got settled enough to pull out the N50 and take a couple test shots with the lens wide open and focused to infinity. My N50 clearly does focus to infinity. (I should note that a quick micro-adjust of the AF on this lens was done a short while ago). In the following (unsharpened) crop, the 5D locked focus onto the mountain in the distance. It's a little soft, as we might expect from the lens wide open, but it is in focus. By the way, never even took the camera out during the drive. I was too focused on driving and getting where I was going, quickly.







Feb 24, 2010 at 06:34 AM
philber
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Is that CA which I am seeing in the OOF foreground, Lotus?


Feb 24, 2010 at 08:06 AM
Bobu
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Lotusm50 wrote:
Yes, quite small fraction of the frame. This is much ado about very, very little, IMHO. This is the least seen, least used, and often cropped 1% (or less) of the frame. As mentioned before, nearly ALL 50mm standard lens exhibit this, why this particular 50mm should be called to task for it is mind boggling.

Comparing it to a 100mm lens is useless. If you need a 100mm lens use a 100mm lens, if you need a 50mm use a 50mm. The 50mm MP is incomparable across 99% of the frame and merely comparable to all other 50mm's over the
...Show more

I have the feeling, that you don't really read my posts. Or maybe you just don't understand it.
I said, that i liked the 50MP and will keep the lens. It will probaby substitute my 35-70. But before I make such a decision, I do some tests. Sharpness is best tested on a flat wall. I don't understand your problem with this approach.

And your assumption, that nearly all lenses look like this, is completely wrong. The 50MP is the only lens, that shows this behaviour. No other lens, I own, shows this. And you can't tell me, that it is the most difficult task in the world to develop a 50mm lens with sharp corners.

Boris




Feb 24, 2010 at 08:50 AM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Bobu wrote:
And your assumption, that nearly all lenses look like this, is completely wrong. The 50MP is the only lens, that shows this behaviour. No other lens, I own, shows this. And you can't tell me, that it is the most difficult task in the world to develop a 50mm lens with sharp corners.



I didn't say "ALL" lenses look like this, I said 50mm lenses (but generally wider lenses also). You should read what I write, as well. I would say show me a 50mm that isn't soft in the absolute corner until f5.6 or f8. They all use pretty much the same type of design (Planar). I have 8 or 9 50mm lenses and they all show this. I would also note that the degree of performance in the corner depends in part on the focus distance. This is probably why users have commented that this has not been a problem in their images produced by the 50MP.

If you are keeping the lens, then I'm really not sure what the point of all the obsessiveness is with the performance in the furthest reach of the corner. We know this is a characteristic of the lens, easily understood from the MTF. Continuing to harp on it doesn't affect it, or make Zeiss run to their lab and change their excellent design. Is there a point to all this effort, beyond what we already understand?

Is it "difficult" to produce a 50mm lens that is sharp and has a perfectly flat field across the entire frame at all apertures? Probably not. It's probably prohibitively expensive, and would be at least twice the size and weight. Even $4000 Leica 50mm lenses don't do it. Correcting that final 1% of performance in the absolute corner would increase the cost of the lens several fold, and produce a lens that you would not want to carry. Most users wouldn't buy it, and prefer to accept optimal compromises and tradeoffs. With the 50MP, Zeiss has kept performance strong across 98-99% of the frame and then lets it drop off steeply into the absolute corner. Other lenses may choose a slightly different tradeoff, where performance drops off more gradually towards the corner. With this you will see compromised performance by the edges of the frame but it may preserve a bit more in the corners (depending on how well it is implemented). The 35-70's tradeoff is like this, it is pretty much downhill across Zone B and into Zone C of the frame (but it's also not a Planar-style design). Quite frankly, I think Zeiss' tradeoff with the 50MP is optimal. They have kept the price reasonable and the the size of the lens usable and sacrifice only the least important (by a wide margin) tiny fraction of the frame -- a fraction of the frame that only rarely you see in a print.

It is, of course, much easier to do with a 100mm focal length, and that is why you see the difference between the 50MP and the 100MP. Of course the 100mm won't do when you need or want a 50mm, and perhaps is one reason why Zeiss makes both.




Feb 24, 2010 at 02:59 PM
thrice
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Lotusm50 wrote:
I would say show me a 50mm that isn't soft in the absolute corner until f5.6 or f8. They all use pretty much the same type of design (Planar). I have 8 or 9 50mm lenses and they all show this.


I agree with this, even the Leica M 50mm ASPH, possibly the best 50 ever made, is soft in the (very) extreme corners until f/4 or so.




Feb 24, 2010 at 03:07 PM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


philber wrote:
Is that CA which I am seeing in the OOF foreground, Lotus?



I would be amazed if there weren't signs of CA. It was an exceptionally bright, high-contrast scene with bright white snow, taken wide open at f1.4 with a non-APO lens. At the very least a touch of "sensor bloom". Given that crop is a 100% crop, CA seems to be very well controlled, indeed. You might catch a hint of it, but that is all.




Feb 24, 2010 at 03:12 PM
Bobu
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


I have no other 50mm lens (besides the 35-70mm zoom) to compare, but I have lots of wide angle lenses, that don't show this behaviour. From the pictures I've seen, the Zeiss 1.4/50 has sharp corners at f/4.0 for example (but it has some other disadvantages, like a much stronger field curvature and lower center resolution).

In my opinion it should be easier to design a 50mm lens with perfect corner sharpness than a wide angle lens with perfect corner sharpness. Maybe I'm wrong.

And I think, I'm not at all obsessed with this. It's just a lens characteristic I've never seen before and I just wanted to know, whether this is normal for this lens and then had to decide whether I will keep this lens or not.

From the lens characteristic, I would probably prefer the 35 ZE, but I like the 67mm filtersize and the macro option of the 50MP.

Maybe your are a bit obsessed in defending the 50MP ;-)

Boris



Feb 24, 2010 at 03:23 PM
Lotusm50
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Zeiss 2.0/50mm MP ZE


Bobu wrote:
I have no other 50mm lens (besides the 35-70mm zoom) to compare, but I have lots of wide angle lenses, that don't show this behaviour. From the pictures I've seen, the Zeiss 1.4/50 has sharp corners at f/4.0 for example (but it has some other disadvantages, like a much stronger field curvature and lower center resolution).



The Zeiss 1.4/50 is indeed soft in the absolute corner until about f5.6 or even f8 (depending how fussy you are), and I have 3 versions of this lens (c/y, N and ZF) so I can speak from some experience. The Zeiss MTF's also confirm this.
A lot depends on the image itself whether you notice it or not. Take a picture of a brick wall or a flat wood fence and you'll see it. Usually, however, images of brick walls is not in my repertoire.




Feb 24, 2010 at 07:06 PM
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