Register · Search · Software · Join Upload & Sell · Hosting

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

FM Forum Rules
FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell   
Search Used
1
2 end
  

Archive 2010 · understanding flash duration?
  
 
amplexis
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · understanding flash duration?


so is a flash with a longer flash duration outputting more total light than a flash with shorter duration at a given power level? or does the shorter duration flash compensate by outputting a higher power burst? is 320ws from the Einstein the same exposure as 320ws from an ab1600?

Jan 06, 2010 at 01:38 PM
howardm4
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · understanding flash duration?


the flash unit outputs a spike of light which then trails off in intensity. the overall 'power' is really just the integral of intensity over time (thats why it's 'watt-seconds'). Since the camera itself has a max sync speed of approx 1/250, the flash will be over and done with by time that the shutter closes.

In a perfect world, the flash is very short spike w/o any trailing off but thats expensive and hard to design so the longer the 'tail', the more the flash is essentially dragging the shutter. there is a series of images on the 'Net that show a rotating dial being flashed by various flash units. the units w/ longer flash duration, as you'd expect, are NOT as sharp as the short duration flashes. this is not particularly important in the vast majority of studio work.

Jan 06, 2010 at 02:03 PM
amplexis
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · understanding flash duration?


howardm4 wrote:
the flash unit outputs a spike of light which then trails off in intensity. the overall 'power' is really just the integral of intensity over time (thats why it's 'watt-seconds'). Since the camera itself has a max sync speed of approx 1/250, the flash will be over and done with by time that the shutter closes.

thanks howard,
so does this mean that if the duration is shorter than the intensity is greater?

Jan 06, 2010 at 02:23 PM
howardm4
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · understanding flash duration?


I don't know what the measuring standard/requirement is for strobe units but if a strobe can dump it's energy in, say, 1 second vs. a competing unit that takes 2 seconds, then the instantaneous intensity is greater but the overall output is the same once time is factored in.

a pool of water only has so much water regardless of how fast you filled it.

Jan 06, 2010 at 02:33 PM
Peter Figen
Online
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · understanding flash duration?


It depends on the manufacturer. The two that I can remember off the top of my head come to mind. Balcar 2400 has a 1/400 duration at full power and Speedotron Blackline 2400 was 1/200 duration at full power. Both gave similar amounts of effective light, but one was clearly better with the higher sync speeds of leaf shutters and one had much better action stopping ability at full power. It's easy enough to read the specs of a given flash unit to figure out how flash duration might affect your own situation, and keep in mind that most modern digital dslr cameras only sync at 1/125 with studio strobes, not the 1/250 that the 35mm film cameras used to and certainly not the 1/400-1/500 of the leaf shutters.

Jan 06, 2010 at 02:40 PM
amplexis
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · understanding flash duration?


howardm4 wrote:
I don't know what the measuring standard/requirement is for strobe units but if a strobe can dump it's energy in, say, 1 second vs. a competing unit that takes 2 seconds, then the instantaneous intensity is greater but the overall output is the same once time is factored in.

a pool of water only has so much water regardless of how fast you filled it.

OK,
i take this to mean that the short duration flash has twice the instantaneous intensity of the longer duration flash.
now i wonder if this means that an Einstein at a given power level that is attached to my G11 with a sync cord and my shutter speed at 1/4000 sec i'll be seeing more light in that 1/4000 sec than if i were lighting with a longer duration flash.
since CHDK (which should show up for the G11 and G10 someday) allows for >1/10000 shutter speeds this could get very interesting.

Jan 06, 2010 at 02:50 PM
E-Vener
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · understanding flash duration?


amplexis wrote:
so is a flash with a longer flash duration outputting more total light than a flash with shorter duration at a given power level? or does the shorter duration flash compensate by outputting a higher power burst? is 320ws from the Einstein the same exposure as 320ws from an ab1600?


In theory 320 w/s is 320 w/s the output should be very close to the the same if the same reflectors are used on both lights. Also depends on the flash tube design but there should not b a ppreciable difference in theory but you'll need the same reflector used on both units and is also dependent on flash tube and electronics design.

The reality is that 320 w/s from one make vs. another can make a large difference.


Jan 06, 2010 at 04:51 PM
PeterBerressem
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · understanding flash duration?


amplexis wrote:
i take this to mean that the short duration flash has twice the instantaneous intensity of the longer duration flash.
now i wonder if this means that an Einstein at a given power level that is attached to my G11 with a sync cord and my shutter speed at 1/4000 sec i'll be seeing more light in that 1/4000 sec than if i were lighting with a longer duration flash.
since CHDK (which should show up for the G11 and G10 someday) allows for >1/10000 shutter speeds this could get very interesting.

Not in general. You always have to factor in t. as was said. A power output of say, 500Ws always takes it's time, depending on the capacity of the flash tube and the capacitor's charging potential (voltage). BUT: In this regard a flash like the Einstein is the exception by it's mosfet circuit. The caps get always charged to max. potential ( = shortest flash duration) while the output is cut at the desired level, achieving the e.g. 1/4000 s. Result: get the Einsteins

Jan 06, 2010 at 05:02 PM
cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · understanding flash duration?


In a studio flash the flash tube gap acts like a switch. The potential stored in the capacitors can bridge the gap until a trigger current is sent into the wire or metal collar around the tube. The trigger current ionizes the xenon gas enough to make it conduct electricity and WHAM - the capacitor(s) dumps its current into the tube.

Power is regulated by the size and number of capacitors and how they are banked. If for example there are four separate capacitors charging 1 would result in 1/4 power, 2 would result in 1/2 power, 3 in 3/4 power, and all four full 4/4 power. Regardless of power level the intensity of the flash burst is about the same at its peak. How long the peak lasts is a function of how long it takes to dump the caps into the tube across the gap. The caps are like buckets. In general the bigger they are and the more that are in play the longer it will take to dump them.

In a simple studio flash there is no "off" switch, the gas just stops ionizing when the current drops below a certain level. Finer power control is obtained by controlling the power flow filling the caps; topping of the buckets to the same mark all the time.

Hot shoe flash and some studio flash units do have an "off" switch in the form of thyristor which can cut off the power based on metering feedback. That is more practical on the small flashes due to the current levels involved. Studio units with cutoffs likely use a combination of regulating the power filling the caps and cutting it off precisely after a fixed amount of time (after the current level drops sufficiently for a semiconductor device to handle and shunt to a dump resistor or dump tube, deflecting it rather than stopping the current.

Chuck

Jan 06, 2010 at 06:17 PM
Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked
p.1 #10 · understanding flash duration?


howardm4 wrote:
I don't know what the measuring standard/requirement is for strobe units but if a strobe can dump it's energy in, say, 1 second vs. a competing unit that takes 2 seconds, then the instantaneous intensity is greater but the overall output is the same once time is factored in.

a pool of water only has so much water regardless of how fast you filled it.


This is the closest analogy here, but IGBT control brings in a whole new equation.

Starting with the basics, if you take a 100W tungsten lamp (say 2000 lumens) it continually emits 2000 Lumens. Lumens is the actual intensity of the lamp in its raw form and is not altered by beamwidth (IE reflector angle).

If you turn this lamp on for one second, it produces 2000 Lumenseconds of light (the AMOUNT of light. It is the amount of light that determines exposure. . . intensity times duration = LS.

Now if you turn the lamp on for 1/1000 second, the intensity remains the 2000L but the amount is 2000 times 1/1000 = 2 LS. It is a flash of light with a duration of 1/1000 Second. Because you are only using the 100W light for 1/1000 Second, the energy is 1/10WS

So if you are going to get 2000LS from the lamp at 1/1000 Sec you must increase the intensity of the lamp by a factor of 1000 . . . to 2,000,000 Lumens (a 100,000 Watt lamp). The energy is now 100WS.

With Xenon flash, the energy is not emitted continuously, but as a brief flash of very intense light. If we (incorrectly) assume the flash is switched on and off like the tungsten example for 1/1000 second (flash duration) and we want to achieve 2000 Lumenseconds within this time window, the intensity as, once more, 2,000,000 Lumens for 1/1000 seconds. But if we settle for a 1/500 second flash duration, the intensity required drops to 1,000,000 Lumens X 1/500 = 2000LS.

So the first lesson is that, for a given amount of exposure from flash, the intensity of the flash is higher for a short duration flash than for a long duration. The base flash duration is dependent on the design of the tube and the operating voltages. The design tradeoffs are the shorter the duration the higher the instantaneous power and intensity. If the base flash duration is made too fast, the system is stressed, the tube life is shortened and reliability and color temperature can suffer.

Now we have to look at the real world waveforms of a Xenon flash. The light doesn't switch clearly on and off. Instead, the light quickly rises to maximum peak brightness, then trails off following an exponential curve until the tube stops conducting and shuts off. This is where the terms t.5 and t.1 come into play.

The t.5 term defines the length of time it takes for 50% of the tube's light to be emitted. But that leaves the other 50%, which takes much longer to emit and which can cause considerable motion blur. So the term t.1 was created to better define action stopping capability. t.1 defines the time it takes to emit all but 10% of the total energy. But even this 10% induces blur at about 3 f stops below the primary exposure.

t.1 more closely relates motion blur to that obtained by an equivalent mechanical shutter speed. In a conventional flash system, the t.1 time is typically three times as long at the t.5 time. So if a flash is specified as have a "1/1000 flash duration" this is always the t.5 time unless otherwise specified. So one can usually assume the t.i time is around 1/300 . . . this is the number that really tells you the action stopping capability.

Now, on to IGBT control. In an IGBT controlled system such as Einstein or high end Broncolor systems and low power speedlights, when you reduce power you do so by abruptly shutting the tube off, thus eliminating the ever-declining tail end of the normal flash waveform. The more you reduce power, the more quickly you shut the tube off, thereby dramatically shortening the t.1 time . . . using the very high intensity initial flash waveform and discarding the blur-inducing tail.

An excellent discussion of this process can be found at:

http://robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10044-10303

The specifics of the Einstein design are as follows:

640WS of capacitor energy are dissipated with a base t.5 time of 1/1600 second and t.i time of 1/540Sec. The peak flashtube current is about 2000A from 500Volt capacitors. Thus the peak energy is 1 million watts. Since well designed Xenon systems achieve an efficacy of about 45 Lumens per Watt, the peak Lumens emitted are on the order of 45,000,000 Lumens. This is equivalent to a 2.6 million watt tungsten lamp.

Since 640WS are dissipated at an efficacy of 45 Lumensecond per WS, about 29,000 Lumenseconds are delivered. At Full Power, the action stopping capability is the same as conventional flash units having a 1/540 Second t,1 time (1/1600 t.5). But as power is reduced, the t.1 duration rapidly decreases to as short as 1/10.000 second. By comparison, dropping the power of a conventional flash unit causes the flash duration to get longer -typically rising from 1/540 Second t.1 to about 1/300 at low power settings.

See also discussions at http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/835412/5#lastmessage

Edited on Jan 07, 2010 at 01:44 AM · View previous versions


Jan 06, 2010 at 07:31 PM
howardm4
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · understanding flash duration?


makes me want to do my Back to the Future '2.6 jigga-watts' thing

Jan 06, 2010 at 07:51 PM
jonathanwilson
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · understanding flash duration?


This is also somewhat of an interesting read.

http://blog.bronimaging.com/2010/01/broncolor-scoro-enhanced-color-temperature-control-ectc

Jan 07, 2010 at 03:30 AM
Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked
p.1 #13 · understanding flash duration?


jonathanwilson wrote:
This is also somewhat of an interesting read.

http://blog.bronimaging.com/2010/01/broncolor-scoro-enhanced-color-temperature-control-ectc


I agree - good info. This is exactly what we do in Einstein. Action mode allows faster durations but results in rising color temperature with reduced power. Color Mode adjusts voltage and cutoff point to maintain constant color at slightly longer durations (still very fast).

Jan 07, 2010 at 06:35 AM
 



Bryan Beasleigh
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · understanding flash duration?


I dared asking about the importance of flash duration at another sight and was branded a dumb amateur, oh well! I feel better now knowing that there are those capable of thoughts above a rudementary level.

Feb 03, 2010 at 02:15 PM
Jeff Napier
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · understanding flash duration?


Heyyyy we can be rudementary around here too...what are trying to say... .
There are lots of goog peaople and sources around here.
Wow, you have been a member for 2.5 years and only one post,have you been lurking? Either way welcome to FM.

Jeff

Feb 03, 2010 at 02:28 PM
Bryan Beasleigh
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · understanding flash duration?


I had a rough couple of years with two knee jobs and a torn rotator and bicep so i kinda lurked in my drug induced haze. This forum has always been a first class resource ( as well as a good read) but at the time I had nothing to add.

I'm expanding my equipment and want to dabble in off camera flash. I've bought the sekonic l358 meter and have some gear from my video days (pre rotator and knee replacement )

While checking out the various monolight offering i started to look at the differences between off camera and hot shoe flash and got interested in the flash duration issues.

I saw a pair of calumet travelites for sale and looked at the specs and they turned out to be T=0.5 1/600 @ full power using info i had gleaned from the various site it seemed that the actual T= .1 speed was 1/200 at full power and 1/100 at minimum.

I asked if this could indeed be true and i was told not to worry about such trivia. Since only t=.05 was stated i was assuming that T=.01 was 3 times and that the duration doubled when the capacity was set to minimum.

In my line of work i have been a tech troubleshooter (north america wide) for over 40 years and i've seen people accept and not even worry about even the most severe shortcomings. I've completed diagnoses on problems that have existed for at least a decade where people just accepted the shortcomings. I guess it bothers me that most people don't really look at the whole picture.

I guess i answered my own question. I'll be better off buying a set with a shorter flash duration.

Feb 04, 2010 at 01:12 AM
Two23
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · understanding flash duration?


BRYAN BEASLEIG wrote:

I guess i answered my own question. I'll be better off buying a set with a shorter flash duration.



It depends on what you want to do. If you are photo'ing fairly static things such as portraits or buildings, a 1/500 duration should do it. If you photo fast moving objects such as race cars or whatever, flash duration becomes becomes more important. I mostly photo moving trains and have found the t1 of WL X3200 monolights (1/300 sec.) to usually be fast enough to freeze trains moving at 45 mph. The Alien Bees B1600 is even better with t1 of 1/600) which has always been fast enough for me. If I want even faster flash duration what I'll do is use my SB-28 flash (I have x8.) I can set them to 1/4 power and get something like 1/2,000 sec. duration. Monolights dump light in a different way than SB flash do. The SB flash are much faster to dump. The new Einsteins use that circuit rather than the usual one found in monolights. You need to think over what you are going to photo to decide if short duration is important to you or not. For me, the raw power of the X3200 seems to be more important.


Kent in SD

Feb 04, 2010 at 02:15 AM
RobertLynn
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · understanding flash duration?


All I know about flash duration is, that is happens very quickly.

I'm not quite sure why it seems like lower power flashes have faster time.

I remember reading Zach Arias saying that w/s and effective w/s aren't the right way to measure light output, and that he was upset that his flash duration wasn't "fast" enough, because he wanted to freeze more motion.

I know my AB 1600 is awesome, and it goes to offices and businesses to do headshots. It's great.

I hope to add this year a vagabond, and another AB1600 to my life, oh and another transmitter to make sure I have a back-up.

Feb 04, 2010 at 02:40 AM
Two23
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · understanding flash duration?


Here's a shot I took a few nights ago during the latest blizzard. It's an interesting example of flash duration. Or, maybe not. The light was from a single B1600 at full power. The train was moving at 45 mph at roughly 90 degree angle to the wind. The wind is coming from roughly behind me. It too was a sustained 45 mph. Note that while the snow was streaking in the 1/600 sec. of flash duration, the train was not, despite moving at the same speed.

In this shot, I actually DO like the streaking of the snow. It helps to tell the story. I got some shots of two other trains during a pause in the snow and they weren't as dramatic. So, sometimes having some streak is a good thing. I barely made it home that night, even in a 4WD. The conditions were about as bad as they could get and still allow me to take flash photos. I didn't extend the lightstand up at all, and had it weighted down with 50 pounds. Wind blew me down four times!


Kent in SD



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Feb 04, 2010 at 04:07 AM
Bryan Beasleigh
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · understanding flash duration?


Did i mention, my other hobby is model railroading Nice!
I'm pretty sure i've seen your work before, impressive! Do you get any flack from the railroad police (security)

ps i'm on the einstein wait list

Feb 04, 2010 at 05:50 AM
Two23
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #21 · understanding flash duration?


"Railroad security?" The only thing I ever see out here in the Dakotas are cows. Train crews know me and sometimes invite me up into the cabs to warm up while they're waiting in a siding. Never had a problem.


Kent in SD

Feb 04, 2010 at 02:11 PM
Bryan Beasleigh
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #22 · understanding flash duration?


The CN police can be a royal pain in the asp up here. They think they have more power than they really do.

Feb 04, 2010 at 02:27 PM
Ryan Pream
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #23 · understanding flash duration?


So how would say the Einstein compare to the Profoto D1 500ws model? Profoto specifies that as 1/1000 - 1/2600 at t0.5. I realize the Einstein gets faster the lower the power, but I'm not clear on how that works with the D1.

Ryan

Feb 04, 2010 at 04:30 PM
E-Vener
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #24 · understanding flash duration?


paul buff has been saying that at all power levels below ful lthe flash duratio ntimes are measured at the t0.1 standard . the D1 doesn't use the same IGBT type electronics that the Einstein uses so to find the the t0.1 times multiply the t0.5 reading by 3x . In other words a t0.5 of 1/1000 means the t0.1 duration is 1/333rd second.

The D1 is a terrific flash. I like it a lot. However if you are photographing things or people in swift motion you might see a little blur.

Feb 04, 2010 at 04:57 PM
Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked
p.1 #25 · understanding flash duration?


Ellis - correct. But the t.1 = 3 times t.5 only applies to non-IGBT flashes. At minimum power the D1 looks like t.1 = 1/333 while Einstein would be in the 1/10,000 range.

Kent, I agree about your shots . . . really fast durations would freeze the train motion cold, but would also eliminate the snow blur, leaving the flakes looking like dust spots . . . like shooting fireworks with a short exposure time.

Feb 05, 2010 at 08:37 PM




FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell
1
2 end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

  Username   Password  
Lost your password?