stumped on sync

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Archive 2009 · stumped on sync

sskoutas
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p.1 #1 · stumped on sync

The set up: Simple studio. Camera with PW plus 2. Camera left are a 580EX with a Pocket Wizard and a 580EX2 with another PW. They are lighting the BG (white seamless). Camera right is an AB800 also filling the BG. It is firing optically off of the 580's. Also Camera right is another AB800 (mistakenly wrote 580 on first post) in a softbox on the subject, firing optically.

Camera is set to manual. Subject readings were 1/250th at f/8.0, ISO 200. 580's were on manual, I believe half power.

The problem: for my first shoot today, everything went as planned. Between clients, I changed the batteries in the 580's (I know, they are going to be replaced in this set up very soon). I turned them back on and reset them to manual, 1/2 power. From that point on, I could no longer capture a lit picture at 1/250th. I was getting fully dark photos at 1/250th. I was getting full across-the-sensor exposure at 1/30, 1/60, and 1/100. I was getting 25% shutter curtain shadow at 1/160th, about 75% shutter curtain shadow at 1/200, and full black at 1/250th. The flashes were certainly firing. My subject even verified it.

I know this has to be some setting that I'm missing, but as I am new to studio, it is just plain eluding me. Any ideas?

Nov 21, 2009 at 06:50 PM

RDKirk
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p.1 #2 · stumped on sync

Have you tested it since then using a single AB light, various shutter speeds; a single Canon light, various shutter speeds; lights connected by cord, various shutter speeds; lights connected by PW, various shutter speeds; et cetera?

A few minutes testing may uncover the problem far more quickly than blind speculation out here in the cloud. And the results of your testing would give us more concrete information to go on.

Nov 21, 2009 at 09:01 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #3 · stumped on sync

The 1/250th sync spec. only applies to flash in a hot shoe. What you are getting is probably the result of latency between the time the radio triggers fire the 580ex and it optically triggers the ABs and your results aren't unusual for such a jury-rig arrangement.

You might try controlling the Canon flashes using its wireless protocol and using the radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs. The Canon's will do their coded pre-flash signaling, then all the main flashes will fire in sync.

Chuck

Nov 22, 2009 at 12:28 AM

sskoutas
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p.1 #4 · stumped on sync

Thank you very much. I did not know the the 250th only related to the hot shoe. Chuck, I will be replacing the 580's with two more AB800's very shortly. If I can ever get a Radio Shack cable that will work with them and a PW plus 2, my intended set up was going to be 1 PW in the camera's hot shoe, and then one PW on each of the AB800's, connected by 1/8 male to 1/8th male cable. Will that, in your opinion, eliminate the latency that you describe?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean when you say to use the "radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs." Are you saying that because, in your suggested arrangement, the hot shoe would be in use by the ST-E2, I assume? I don't own the ST-E2 and probably won't be buying it unless you see a reason.

Nov 23, 2009 at 01:18 AM

cgardner
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p.1 #5 · stumped on sync

sskoutas wrote:
Thank you very much. I did not know the the 250th only related to the hot shoe. Chuck, I will be replacing the 580's with two more AB800's very shortly. If I can ever get a Radio Shack cable that will work with them and a PW plus 2, my intended set up was going to be 1 PW in the camera's hot shoe, and then one PW on each of the AB800's, connected by 1/8 male to 1/8th male cable. Will that, in your opinion, eliminate the latency that you describe?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean when you say to use the "radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs." Are you saying that because, in your suggested arrangement, the hot shoe would be in use by the ST-E2, I assume? I don't own the ST-E2 and probably won't be buying it unless you see a reason.

You need mono patch cable, not stereo. There still may be latency using the PW with the ABs but you need to realize flash duration not shutter freezes the action so unless trying to shoot action there's no real "penalty" shooting at 1/160th or 1/125th.

To trigger using the Canon / PC combo just use a 580ex in the hotshoe with a diffuser as Master and Fill.

Nov 23, 2009 at 01:35 AM

sskoutas
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p.1 #6 · stumped on sync

I thank you again. I am using mono cable, not stereo. The first one I purchased was a faulty cable, tested and failed at Radio Shack on return. The second cable I purchased isn't firing the AB800 off of the PW either, so perhaps I have a second faulty cable. Don't know. Thanks again, Chuck.

Nov 23, 2009 at 01:53 AM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #7 · stumped on sync

cgardner wrote:
The 1/250th sync spec. only applies to flash in a hot shoe. What you are getting is probably the result of latency between the time the radio triggers fire the 580ex and it optically triggers the ABs and your results aren't unusual for such a jury-rig arrangement.

You might try controlling the Canon flashes using its wireless protocol and using the radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs. The Canon's will do their coded pre-flash signaling, then all the main flashes will fire in sync.

Chuck

sync speed has NOTHING to do with weather or not you're using a hot shoe, or monobloc/pack and head system. a flash is a flash is a flash is a flash. you're having issues with sync speed because of your triggers... chances are if you noticed that big of a drop in sync speed it's because the batteries in your pocket wizards are running low. Not because you're "jury-rig" set up(which is fine BTW)

Nov 23, 2009 at 03:43 PM

mervifwdc
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p.1 #8 · stumped on sync

Depending on what camera you have 1/250 may well be the max sync speed, but it should'nt cause a problem. I sync at 1/320 with a 1dmiii regularly with a mix of pw's, large flashes and 580's with no issues, PW in the hot shoe.

during the changing of the batteries, I have to wonder if any wires came loose?

are both of the lights wth PW's not syncing, or just one of them? Turn all the lights off except 1 to prove the they are syncing one at a time. if it's just 1 light that has a delay/pre fire, then investigate it. If they all have a delay, investigate the camera/pw at the camera end.

if you had pw multimaxes, I'd be asking if you had put in any delay on them, even by accident.
Merv.

Nov 23, 2009 at 03:51 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #9 · stumped on sync

Suggest you read the flash section of any Canon camera manual about sync speed, the source of the information I provided.

Chuck

Josh Evilsizor wrote:
cgardner wrote:
The 1/250th sync spec. only applies to flash in a hot shoe. What you are getting is probably the result of latency between the time the radio triggers fire the 580ex and it optically triggers the ABs and your results aren't unusual for such a jury-rig arrangement.

You might try controlling the Canon flashes using its wireless protocol and using the radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs. The Canon's will do their coded pre-flash signaling, then all the main flashes will fire in sync.

Chuck

sync speed has NOTHING to do with weather or not you're using a hot shoe, or monobloc/pack and head system. a flash is a flash is a flash is a flash. you're having issues with sync speed because of your triggers... chances are if you noticed that big of a drop in sync speed it's because the batteries in your pocket wizards are running low. Not because you're "jury-rig" set up(which is fine BTW)

Nov 23, 2009 at 04:01 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #10 · stumped on sync

cgardner wrote:
Suggest you read the flash section of any Canon camera manual about sync speed, the source of the information I provided.

Chuck

Josh Evilsizor wrote:
cgardner wrote:
The 1/250th sync spec. only applies to flash in a hot shoe. What you are getting is probably the result of latency between the time the radio triggers fire the 580ex and it optically triggers the ABs and your results aren't unusual for such a jury-rig arrangement.

You might try controlling the Canon flashes using its wireless protocol and using the radio triggers connected to the camera PC socket to fire the ABs. The Canon's will do their coded pre-flash signaling, then all the main flashes will fire in sync.

Chuck

sync speed has NOTHING to do with weather or not you're using a hot shoe, or monobloc/pack and head system. a flash is a flash is a flash is a flash. you're having issues with sync speed because of your triggers... chances are if you noticed that big of a drop in sync speed it's because the batteries in your pocket wizards are running low. Not because you're "jury-rig" set up(which is fine BTW)

I REGULARLY sync @ my max sync speed of 1/200 with my elinchrom strobes while connected with the PC cord and the other with the built in optical slave. With fresh batteries I can get 1/250 with my triggers, but generally have to shoot at 1/160 and that's both using my hot shoe flashes, and my elinchroms.

Edited by Fred Miranda on Nov 24, 2009 at 01:34 AM · View previous versions

Nov 23, 2009 at 04:22 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #11 · stumped on sync

Advice needs to be put into context...

The problem here was that he was triggering the 580ex via the PW then using the flash from the 580ex to trigger the optical slave sensor on the AB800. So he was encountering a double dose of latency causing the sync problem (the reference to "jury-rig").

I also have no problem when firing my lights with just the PW, which you might have missed is what I went on to suggest to him.

Chuck

Nov 23, 2009 at 05:26 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #12 · stumped on sync

cgardner wrote:
Advice needs to be put into context...

The problem here was that he was triggering the 580ex via the PW then using the flash from the 580ex to trigger the optical slave sensor on the AB800. So he was encountering a double dose of latency causing the sync problem (the reference to "jury-rig").

I also have no problem when firing my lights with just the PW, which you might have missed is what I went on to suggest to him.

Chuck

that's not the problem, maybe you missed the part where he said it worked just fine with the 1st set of clients. and secondly, I shoot quite often with a speed light hooked to my radio triggers, then fire the elinchroms optically without issues.

problem is is spout off with the false sense of knowledge you get from a manual, but don't seem to ever have any real world experience to back your claims up.

Nov 23, 2009 at 05:38 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #13 · stumped on sync

Been using optically triggered flash since 1972. How about you?

Nov 23, 2009 at 05:44 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #14 · stumped on sync

cgardner wrote:
Been using optically triggered flash since 1972. How about you?

so your old using antiquated equipment... what's your point

technology has come quite a long way since the 70's, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt I have no problems using the set up the OP described. and neither did he until after his 1st session.

Nov 23, 2009 at 05:54 PM

paulhodson
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p.1 #15 · stumped on sync

Getting a little unnecessarily personal there Josh

As an aside- using cheapie eBay triggers my maximum flash sync on a 5D is 1/160 - which is fine - but as the battery power in the flashes (not the triggers) reduces, sync speed drops to 1/30 - with completely black frames at 1/40 and above.

Nov 23, 2009 at 05:55 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #16 · stumped on sync

paulhodson wrote:
Getting a little unnecessarily personal there Josh

and FWIW, I also use the cheapie ebay triggers... when they battery power drops, so does the sync speed. on multiple occasions I've noticed sync speed dropping with AC powered strobes and replaced the batteries in my transmitter and all back to normal....

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:01 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #17 · stumped on sync

Lame excuse calling insults humor... But then it is the Internet

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:03 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #18 · stumped on sync

cgardner wrote:
Lame excuse calling insults humor... But then it is the Internet

see... you're just to old to get it

lighten up and get over yourself.

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:07 PM

RDKirk
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p.1 #19 · stumped on sync

Josh Evilsizor wrote:
cgardner wrote:
Lame excuse calling insults humor... But then it is the Internet

see... you're just to old to get it

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:39 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #20 · stumped on sync

RDKirk wrote:
Josh Evilsizor wrote:
cgardner wrote:
Lame excuse calling insults humor... But then it is the Internet

see... you're just to old to get it

lighten up and get over yourself.

Basic problem here, Josh, is that you're sparring with someone who has been an immense teaching benefit to many, many posters here for years.

Give it up...you're not winning.

I didn't realize I was in a win or lose battle? so what you're telling me is even if the almighty cgardner gives false information, it doesn't matter weather he's wrong or not, he'll always "win" got it! But hey.. even little mac beats tyson every once in a while.

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:49 PM

sskoutas
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p.1 #21 · stumped on sync

Josh, let me put it this way... whether you are right or wrong no longer matters to me. I find your posts rude and confrontational, and you are basically unloading on one of the most liked and respected teachers here. Chuck has taken a lot of his time to patiently teach me and many others here things that we would never be able to fully grasp from the manual alone. He is courteous, intelligent, and very accomplished. All said and done, no matter who is right, his advice is of more value to me. Think community a bit before you go firing off your humor, please. And no, I'm not too old to get it.

Too bad you couldn't present your side a little more kindly. You were ready for a fight from your first post. That, in my book, discredits you greatly.

It pisses me off to see this thread turn in this direction. There are so many other forum sites where this is par for the course. I wish this weren't one of them.

Nov 23, 2009 at 08:30 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #22 · stumped on sync

sskoutas wrote:
Josh, let me put it this way... whether you are right or wrong no longer matters to me. I find your posts rude and confrontational, and you are basically unloading on one of the most liked and respected teachers here. Chuck has taken a lot of his time to patiently teach me and many others here things that we would never be able to fully grasp from the manual alone. He is courteous, intelligent, and very accomplished. All said and done, no matter who is right, his advice is of more value to me. Think community a bit before you go firing off your humor, please. And no, I'm not too old to get it.

Too bad you couldn't present your side a little more kindly. You were ready for a fight from your first post. That, in my book, discredits you greatly.

It pisses me off to see this thread turn in this direction. There are so many other forum sites where this is par for the course. I wish this weren't one of them.

WTF

my 1st post was far from confrontational. I wrote

sync speed has NOTHING to do with weather or not you're using a hot shoe, or monobloc/pack and head system. a flash is a flash is a flash is a flash. you're having issues with sync speed because of your triggers... chances are if you noticed that big of a drop in sync speed it's because the batteries in your pocket wizards are running low. Not because you're "jury-rig" set up(which is fine BTW)

to which I'm told to go read a manual, like I have no idea what I'm talking about.... but I'm the one who's being confrontational...

EDIT

I just realized you're the OP... funny now that I was fighting with chuck that your set up was just fine while he courteously told you your issue is you just don't know what you're doing.... you clearly stated in your 1st post that everything worked fine for the 1st set... so how is chucks response to your problem valid? It's not. And the problem here is he gets so much praise for copying and pasting pre canned responses from his website, that sometimes, yes are helpful... but most of the time are just so far off base it's funny. Then if anyone happens to disagree with what he says not only do they get some form of snarky hostility from him, but also the drones of posters that take time to remove themselves from his butt to post something. You can search, although it might take some time to wade through the thousands of posts he's got, but you'll see I'm not alone in my thoughts... But continue by all means to follow the gospel of chuck.. I'm sure you'll gloss right over the answers to your issues and go through unnecessary measures because it's what chuck told you to do.

Nov 23, 2009 at 08:45 PM

sskoutas
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p.1 #23 · stumped on sync

stressing the word NOTHING with all caps set the tone. You did it while quoting Chuck's post, and to me (long before I read the rest of this thread), it seemed like you were headhunting. If I am mistaking your initial intent, I am more than willing to apologize. That apology, however, doesn't extend itself to cover the rest of the slinging.

Nov 23, 2009 at 08:58 PM

sskoutas
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p.1 #24 · stumped on sync

Josh, I saw that you made valid points in your reply to me. You seem to be missing my later point. You're rude.

I'd much rather my reply were one thanking you for your valuable input. I have no problem with you being right, or Chuck being right, or you both being wrong. Point is I came here because there are a lot of people here that know a lot more than me. Knowing more is nice. Being able to share it in a civil manner is nicer.

Nov 23, 2009 at 09:02 PM

dmward
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p.1 #25 · stumped on sync

Jezz ---
22 posts in this thread and I'm no longer able to tell if the OP even got an answer to his question.
But, that's the way of the internet.

One thing I learned about diagnosing a problem, whether it has to do with strobes, cars, airplanes or just about anything else, is that if it was working and you changed something then it quit working is to check everything to make sure the "chain" is still intact. changing batteries could have resulted in a cable being loosened, etc.

Since there are two PWs firing two 580s firing two optically triggered ABs there are redundant elements for each part of the chain.

Other than suggesting an organized troubleshooting technique there are too many variables for speculative diagnosis.

Nov 23, 2009 at 09:07 PM


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