I just had to share with eveyone...

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Archive 2009 · I just had to share with eveyone...

smurfee
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p.1 #1 · I just had to share with eveyone...

So for the first 5 months of my photography career since getting paid gigs, I've been here on FM reading all about those bad client experiences. Some were very bad, some were not so bad, and some I didn't really see what was wrong and how things went wrong. (we FMers weren't there and written words don't seem to give the situation enough depth and justice for us to judge online.) Regardless, all these horror stories, I prayed I wouldn't have to go through. But coincidentally after reading a horror story on FM this morning... I happened to have one just about 30 minutes ago.

Long story short. And this should give it away why the problems happened...."the shoot was done for a friend." - no longer a friend though due to this.

Anyways, we had a shoot October 11th, 2009.3 hour session. And at the shoot, he was extremely friendly and happy go lucky, and joking and whatever. We got about 250 shots and just to take into consideration, I was just starting out at that time. Learning my craft and trying to capture my own unique sense of style. After the shoot was done, time came to pay up, and I told him i would pay half of it but didn't have the money at that moment.So, i told him I would get him the money when i had it. Eventually, it was a free session for him. And so was my post processing. FREE. nothing but FREE.

So a month passes by (today) and I meet up with him at a local coffee shop (very busy at the time) to give him the money. Soooo anyways, he arrives at the coffee shop and i hand him the money right away. He sits down and then, what does he do?

BAM! surprises me with profanity and insults about my photography that i didn't even know was coming. The type of things he said, (all jumbled up in my head so in no particular order)

- took you this long to pay me the money you cheapskate?!
- a month to deliver the final product and it doesn't even look like things have been done to them!
- you took 200 shots and all you delivered were 30 photos?! (mind you i took 5 shots of every pose)
- i could've gotten you clients but with the way you handled things, I would never refer you because the time frame was absurd!
- and alot of other words that i cannot post on a public forum.

At first i was willing to deal with him in a civilized manner but then we got kicked out of the coffee shop because he was yelling and cussing. Then when we were outside, he slapped my coffee out of my hand. that really ticked me off. I just felt like he was looking for a fight, but here's what i did. I told him as calmly as I could...

"I worked really hard on those during the time I had free. I had paying clients that had priority over the shoot that you and I had done but nonetheless, I was working on them throughout the month. If you like, I won't use them anymore for my portfolio and I'll give you uneditted RAWS so you can see how much work I had put into processing them due to how bad the studio lighting was."

Then here's what he said, I'm doing YOU a favor and you can't be thankful enough to get things to me on time?!?!?!

O_O And that's when the brown stuff hit the fan and i was dodging it just so i wouldn't have to get some brown stuff all over me..... (i walked away)

somebody here on FM posted a quote that has stuck with me since.

"Don't stoop down to an idiot's level, because they'll just win with experience!" I'm just glad it's over with and I don't have to deal with it anymore. I've taken down his photos and I am done with that.

Word of advice for new photographers. Be it friends, family, friends of friends, whatever.. have a contract in place, and don't underprice this thing they call photography. People need to know how much blood, sweat, and tears go into this Job.

The sleepless nights, the constant reviewing within your head during the day about what you could do better about the photos you just took, the post processing and times when the blacks look blue and the grays look white, the hours you putinto perfecting that one picture so that it remains consistent throughout the composition and color temps, and white balance, etc etc.

I can't be angry at this guy, but I sure am feeling down because there will always be people who just don't realize how much we actually do.

Nov 20, 2009 at 04:11 AM

alex108
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p.1 #2 · I just had to share with eveyone...

I'm sorry that happened to you, but it looks like even with the contract this could've still happened or even worse. Sometimes even if you are as nice as you can be, people still could get upset for their own reasons or some misunderstanding.

Nov 20, 2009 at 04:55 AM

rowan57
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p.1 #3 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Im very confused. What were you paying him for?

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:04 AM

smurfee
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p.1 #4 · I just had to share with eveyone...

For the studio use. We decided to split the cost of it.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:09 AM

chas
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p.1 #5 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Not sure I understand either. You gave him pictures AND you paid him?? What kind of deal was that? (other than bad for you?)

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:13 AM

walter23
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p.1 #6 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Oh, okay, you made it sound like you paid him for the shoot.

Look, if you told him you were splitting the studio cost, and then when it was time to pay the bill you kind of shuffled around and said "Uhh, I don't have any money, uhh, get you later?" you're kind of a dick. You kind of have to work out those things ahead of time instead of surprising your friends with financial burdens. I'd be pissed, too.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:15 AM

smurfee
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p.1 #7 · I just had to share with eveyone...

walter23 wrote:
Oh, okay, you made it sound like you paid him for the shoot.

Look, if you told him you were splitting the studio cost, and then when it was time to pay the bill you kind of shuffled around and said "Uhh, I don't have any money, uhh, get you later?" you're kind of a dick. You kind of have to work out those things ahead of time instead of surprising your friends with financial burdens. I'd be pissed, too.

Fair enough if that were the case. But he knew he was covering initial studio-use and he would tell me the half-cost after. And i was delivering pictures throughout the month to him fully processed and printing comcards for him. The studio was 60 dollars for the usage. I didn't think the 30 dollars would be a big deal but he made it seem as if I didn't do anything for him throughout the month.

Not going to try and defend it because I did pay up. But credit was not given to how much work i put into it. Well worth more than the 30 dollars that we agreed upon.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:22 AM

smurfee
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p.1 #8 · I just had to share with eveyone...

I'm just saddened that the photos were not appreciated by a friend. And i don't think i did as bad of a job as he makes it seems.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:24 AM

Michael Sessio
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p.1 #9 · I just had to share with eveyone...

$60 for three hours of studio time

I'm going to dump my studio and start paying by the hour.

You should have paid up pronto but it sounds like he was more upset about the 30 day lead time. You need to set expectations up front, end of story.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:53 AM

dan101
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p.1 #10 · I just had to share with eveyone...

$30 is never a big deal when its not you getting stuck with it.

Nov 20, 2009 at 01:17 PM

hk_mtbr
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p.1 #11 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Yeah...that friend thing. We all get suckered sometime...live and learn.

I had a friend issue once upon a time. I knew better from past discussion that were unrelated - he doesn't treat "his" workers well. He is a "financial sadist" - using money and grief to pull people around - then it happened to me.

He was of course getting a friend rate, too. The details are unimportant - but it sucked and I pretty much lost a "friend" and a job over it...albeit indirectly but the whole thing was an albatross hanging heavily.

Congrats on the business and good luck!

Learn from everyone you encounter.

Nov 20, 2009 at 02:30 PM

Ian Bower
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p.1 #12 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Sorry to hear this story =/ Sh*t happens I guess. I've gotten myself in similar situations. - You are absolutly correct about establishing the ground rules for the transaction right in the beginning.

Nov 20, 2009 at 03:22 PM

sprocket87
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p.1 #13 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Wow, sorry to hear man. That's tough... I haven't had any seriously bad experiences yet (though I don't have too many paid gigs under my belt yet), but I do worry about things like this.

It's a tough game. I agree that contracts are essential. Keep in mind that the contract works both ways - if it includes a clause about timeframe for delivery (which it should, I think), you're required to stick to that, as the photographer. That's a good thing in a way, because as long as you do it within that timeframe, they signed the contract, meaning they're okay with that length of time for processing. As long as you stick with it

As far as quality of photos, it's subjective, and some people are hard/impossible to please. Nothing is more frustrating than pouring your heart and soul into a shoot and then get average reactions from the client, or worse. But it might not be your work in particular. Some people hate the way they look in photos and are taking it out on you, even if they were awesome shots. Other people just have no consideration for others or the work that goes into it. The last wedding I did was for a friend of my wife's - the gig went well enough, and I was decently pleased (though not overly proud) of the results, but the bride was ambivalent and didn't really say much about them. I found out later from my wife that she's like that in general... she's not a thankful person, she never acts appreciatively when others do something for her. I guess it just goes to show that you can't take everything personally - if you do you'll never make it in this world. At the same time, legitimate, well-intended criticism or comments from a client can make you better. But it sounds like this guy wasn't doing anything like that.

In your case, I'd say the lessons learned are:
- Have a contract, including outlining the delivery timeframe, and stick with it
- Be expedient about getting the photos back to the client
- Don't play the "I owe you" game - that's a sure way to get burned
- When doing work for a friend, make absolutely clear of each others' expectations at the outset. It's much better to turn down a shoot, no matter how potentially profitable or useful for your portfolio, then risk a good friendship

In any case, it sounds like you handled the argument well by taking the high road and not reacting in kind. The worst thing would've been to get physical in return!!

Nov 20, 2009 at 03:29 PM

Gunslinger
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p.1 #14 · I just had to share with eveyone...

I'd like to see some of these photos. That could clear up some confusion, too.

;-)

Nov 20, 2009 at 03:41 PM

sbapb03
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p.1 #15 · I just had to share with eveyone...

Wow, this sounds as it it actually could be a "Reality T.V." spot .... the set up in a coffee shot, Starbucks or some other chi-chi coffee house. Add melodrama/hysteria, plus XXX dialogue - perfect ... Yup ... love the slapping of coffee out of your hands ... great timely action shot - slow-motion it, repeat it using different angled shots, focus the emotional response - one is gasping, incredulously, the other spewing more vituperations ... I look for a sequel to follow soon whereby you set up another shoot ... and don't show up - that will show the bastard ... and then, have another follow-up meeting - Dunkin Donuts this time (a working man's coffee) ... and wait another six months ...

... Yup, it has been said often ... have upfront contract - friend or not - and be prepared for 'anything' when dealing with humanity's follies.

Best,
ApB

Nov 20, 2009 at 03:58 PM

Jacob D
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p.1 #16 · I just had to share with eveyone...

All of this over $30? Really

Nov 20, 2009 at 04:30 PM

smurfee
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p.1 #17 · I just had to share with eveyone...

sbapb03 wrote:
Wow, this sounds as it it actually could be a "Reality T.V." spot .... the set up in a coffee shot, Starbucks or some other chi-chi coffee house. Add melodrama/hysteria, plus XXX dialogue - perfect ... Yup ... love the slapping of coffee out of your hands ... great timely action shot - slow-motion it, repeat it using different angled shots, focus the emotional response - one is gasping, incredulously, the other spewing more vituperations ... I look for a sequel to follow soon whereby you set up another shoot ... and don't show up - that will show the bastard ... and then, have another follow-up meeting - Dunkin Donuts this time (a working man's coffee) ... and wait another six months ...

... Yup, it has been said often ... have upfront contract - friend or not - and be prepared for 'anything' when dealing with humanity's follies.

Best,
ApB

haha. that made me laugh about the whole situation.thanks for that.

All of this over $30? Really
Yup, and it's not like i was being a rear end about it all. I had priorities with paying clients and told him I would give him the photos and the money at the same time. which happened yesterday(1 months time) (online gallery went up a week earlier with updates everyday)... and you can cue the Reality series score........right now. hehe.

Nov 20, 2009 at 04:50 PM

canon pants
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p.1 #18 · I just had to share with eveyone...

you are better off not being his freind.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:26 PM

gheller
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p.1 #19 · I just had to share with eveyone...

You say, "After the shoot was done, time came to pay up, and I told him i would pay half of it but didn't have the money at that moment"

You asked for this...sorry to say. I know he could have handled the coffee shop better, but YOU said you didn't have the money when requested.

no sympathy here

greg

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:26 PM

smurfee
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p.1 #20 · I just had to share with eveyone...

gheller wrote:
You say, "After the shoot was done, time came to pay up, and I told him i would pay half of it but didn't have the money at that moment"

You asked for this...sorry to say. I know he could have handled the coffee shop better, but YOU said you didn't have the money when requested.

no sympathy here

greg

the wording may throw everyone off, but what it is, he came to the studio with the knowledge he was paying for it all. I told him i would give him money later on to ease the load. It's not so much the money i think, but the time and the lack of knowledge of how much work i put into his photos.

Nov 20, 2009 at 05:41 PM

tchan748
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p.1 #21 · I just had to share with eveyone...

I dont think the $30 is the issue here. I think there are expectations from both parties not in sync with each other.
Here is my question, which i dont seem to see you explaining in the story:

1. What was the agreed time frame to deliver the photos if there is any.
2. Even though your friend is getting essentially a free deal (beside the studio cost of cos) One cannot argue that he should still expect a "professional job" at best, that is including quality of the photos and prompt delivery time that was promised (which leads back to my first question)
3. You cannot use the argument that because he is getting a free deal than he can wait until whenever and should not have any exceptions on the quality of the photos.

So before anyone can pass judgement on who's fault this is, we need to see the photos and also need to know the agreed time frame (or excepted time frame)

Nov 20, 2009 at 06:01 PM

smurfee
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p.1 #22 · I just had to share with eveyone...

tchan748 wrote:
I dont think the $30 is the issue here. I think there are expectations from both parties not in sync with each other.
Here is my question, which i dont seem to see you explaining in the story:

1. What was the agreed time frame to deliver the photos if there is any.
2. Even though your friend is getting essentially a free deal (beside the studio cost of cos) One cannot argue that he should still expect a "professional job" at best, that is including quality of the photos and prompt delivery time that was promised (which leads back to my first question)
3. You cannot use the argument that because he is getting a free deal than he can wait until whenever and should not have any exceptions on the quality of the photos.

So before anyone can pass judgement on who's fault this is, we need to see the photos and also need to know the agreed time frame (or excepted time frame)

Nov 20, 2009 at 06:47 PM

sav1977
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p.1 #23 · I just had to share with eveyone...

You might want to mention the studio fee in the OP...

Nov 20, 2009 at 06:56 PM

Michael Sessio
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p.1 #24 · I just had to share with eveyone...

You're flip flopping on your story. I think it's most likely both parties really screwed the pooch on this one.

I will say that someone who has the nerve to be yelling, swearing, become physical is most likely a total nutjob. I'd NEVER have anything to do with this caveman again. Is he a teenager?

Nov 20, 2009 at 07:07 PM

tchan748
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p.1 #25 · I just had to share with eveyone...

smurfee wrote:
tchan748 wrote:
I dont think the $30 is the issue here. I think there are expectations from both parties not in sync with each other.
Here is my question, which i dont seem to see you explaining in the story:

1. What was the agreed time frame to deliver the photos if there is any.
2. Even though your friend is getting essentially a free deal (beside the studio cost of cos) One cannot argue that he should still expect a "professional job" at best, that is including quality of the photos and prompt delivery time that was promised (which leads back to my first question)
3. You cannot use the argument that because he is getting a free deal than he can wait until whenever and should not have any exceptions on the quality of the photos.

So before anyone can pass judgement on who's fault this is, we need to see the photos and also need to know the agreed time frame (or excepted time frame)

Very good questions. I'll answer them as detailed as possible.
1. Agreed time frame for photo prints was 1 month. Online gallery was up on agreed time frame.
2. I will send you a PM for the gallery because I do not want the url showing up on a public forum, for I will be taking it down soon.

I chose the best photos to edit and editted them to the best of my ability. Never once did i think I should treat these photos differently from paying clients. I was just as excited to do this shoot as I was for the next serveral clients down the road.

smurfee and for all those who are questioning the quality of the photos,

I looked at the portfolio you sent and i have to agree with you the photos are of very high quality. Now i am no professional portrait photographer but i believe i have seen enough of them to make my judgement. Whether your friend likes them or not is a matter of personal taste BUT he should not have dis you based on the professional work you have done. The images are sharp, colors are balanced, compositions are strong. He has no right to do what he did especially one month was the agreed upon delivery date. I say for $30 he is getting a freaking deal. Personally i wont even do that for a friend, just too much work. BUT i think this is his loss, not realizing what a good friend you were. Let him go pay a lot more somewhere else and guess what? He will still not be happy with what he gets.

Nov 20, 2009 at 07:16 PM


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