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Outdoor with just 2 flashes? Go to previous topic Go to next topic
saaketham
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p.1 #1 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Is it possible to just use 2 flashes on lighting stands and umbrellas to light for outdoor portaits? I don't want to lug around power packs, etc .. With just 2 flashes, I can just use the batteries and be able to be lightweight and still get decent side and backlighting if needed.

So 2 flashes remotely controlled by a Canon 7D is what I'm thinking. Anyone use such a simple (and novice) setup?

Nov 16, 2009 at 08:39 AM
Mubeen
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p.1 #2 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


you can even use just one flash for outdoor portraits, especially with 7D or higher or D700 or higher respectively. Now with these high ISO usable cameras you need to balance the available light with for example..flash and not the other way round and bring more lights and stands for the outdoor shoots. It works most of the time unless you are in the deep jungle or under the heavy trees shadows just before the sunset.

Nov 16, 2009 at 08:50 AM
saaketham
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p.1 #3 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


hmmm .. I'm thinking of buying 2 light stands, 2 diffusers and then using just those 2 lights wirelessly .. no other power packs to lug around, no wires, no strobes ... Won't have modeling light, of course, which would suck. But .. for a cheap lighting setup .. I hope this will work.

Thanks for the above comment.

Nov 16, 2009 at 09:36 AM
mervifwdc
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p.1 #4 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


it also depends on what you call outdoor. If you are trying to overpower strong sunlight, then you'll need more power than if your trying to light a specific subject/model in a darker area (like a forest or shade of a building).

Fire ahead with your plan, but also give thought to how you are going to fire them. some systems mean you go full manual, and some systems allow high speed sync which allows you to use shutter speeds that will overpower ambient.

for example, I use cannon 580's remotely to light downhill mountain bike guys. I shoot the remote lights using PW's so they fire manually (i.e. not ettl) so I set my shutter speed to 1/320 (canon 1dMiii max sync), set the apperature on the camera to where I like the backgrounds exposure, then adjust the flash up or down to where I like the foreground/subject. if I'm in bright sunshine, I sometimes to not have enough power to overpower the sunlight. With some other camera, the max sync speed is slower, 1/250 or even 1/200.

Example:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




That was 1/4 power on the flash if I recall correctly.

If I'm shooting somewhere darker, I can leave the apperature more open, therefore needing less flash power. Less flash power is good as it gives better re-cycle times.


Merv.

Nov 16, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Kurt Paris
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p.1 #5 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


also remember that essentially the sun is a 3rd light - outdoors you could always use the sun (in the shade) as your key light and another light for fill.

To shoot outdoors using flashes without needing oodles of power you could ideally sync using the flashes 'High Speed Sync' Option (you can use either the canon optical system or the new pocketwizards to trigger the flashes). This does reduce the effective working distance of the flash though.

Nov 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #6 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Outdoors if you put the back of the subject to the sun you have the equivalent of a four light set-up indoors: The sun provides back-rim (i.e. hair) light directly, and the light reflecting from the sky illuminates the background and contributes to main and fill.

With back to the sun and front of the face and body entirely in the shade, the shady side is about - 3 stops below the sunny side (Sunny 16 /Shady 5.6). Without flash what we'd typically do is use the "Shady 5.6" exposure to get the face correctly exposed and then minimize the fact the highlights are clipping by finding a dark background and lettting the hair go "nuclear" and other less important areas clip.

When using flash it is possible to fit the scene to the sensor and not blow any highlights. Start the same way with back to the sun, front entirely in shade, then add flash until the two balance. But the important thing to realize when adding the first flash to a backlight scenario is that IT IS NOT FILL!

The shady side is already filled, somewhat inadequately, by the "shady" sky the person is facing. When flash is added on top of that fill it creates a HIGHLIGHT PATTERN on top of the key fill. So what is happening is the flash becomes the KEY light, on top of the fill and the sun becomes the ACCENT/HAIR light. The shadows on the front not hit by the flash remain lit by the sky FILL.

The mistake many make with single flash in that situation is not positioning it like a KEY light should be, above the eye-line of the subject. What makes lighting patterns look "natural" is the angle of the light relative to the face. Natural light outdoors comes from overhead, both directly from the sun and indirectly from the sky, so when using single flash outdoors it should be raised, ideally directly over the lens...







The shot above was taken with a 580ex flash and diffuser on bracket. Raising the light creates a "butterfly" pattern of highlight on the face which defines the 3D shape with contrast. The contrast comes from the fact the shadows are illuminated by the sky.

Let's stop and consider the lighting ratio in that scenario. The shady side is - 3 stops which is an incident ratio of 8:1. The ambient exposure is controlled to keep the hair and white top below clipping. The flash has added highlights to a point just below the "paper white" value of around 250 retained in the clothing because and exact match would result in a fake flat look. So the resulting ratio between highlights and shadows on the face is probably around 6:1 or so; quite dark and harsh. But that ratio works OK in a full face pose with the centered lighting strategy because the pattern and the angle of face to camera are both symmetrical and the dark shadow actually work to define and slim the face in the normally least flattering full-face view.

If the flash, acting as KEY light was moved 45 from the nose, shortlighting the face, the tone of the shadows would be the same, but because more of the face that is seen would be in shadow the lighting would look much harsher perceptually. Its not just the lighting ratio that affects perception, its also the relative amounts of highlight and shadow seen on the face.

The solution to the problem of the sky fill alone being to dark for flattering lighting with and off axis key light is to add a second flash from the direction of slightly over the camera, or where the first flash is already in the full face scenario above. The second flash supplements the fill. Why over the camera? To duplicate the direction and angle of the natural fill.







The brighter card affects perception of the face, so here it is with the card covered:







During a discussion of modifiers outdoors I dragged the in-house model out of the garden for the shot above to illlustrate the effect of the sky when combined with direct, unmodified flash and a neutral fill strategy. The sky is God's own softbox which wraps completely around the face. Any modifier put on a flash will be puny and ineffective by comparison. In the two flash + backlight scenario the sky is actually providing the most of the light. The flash simply kicks it up a notch:

Break it down on a cause and effect level:

Sunny highlights on hair and clothing are kept below clipping. I shot that in Av mode and had to dial in - 2 EC to keep the hair and shoulder from clipping.

Without flash the face was - 3 stops with sky fill. The flash on the bracket in the role of supplemental fill added about 1.5 stops, making the shadows on the face lighter. Then the flash off axis, 45 degrees from the nose to the right, worked just like it would indoors, overlapping the combined sky/flash fill with about 1 stop more light. The net result? Lighter shadows with highlights which are 2x brighter: a 2+1:1 or 3:1 ratio.

I used Canon wireless in ETTL mode for that shot at FEC=0. The evaluative metering was able to sorted out the exposure correctly because I didn't blow the ambient lit highlights.

The common denominator in both the single flash / full-face and dual-flash/oblique strategies is my knowing how to create a natural pattern of contrast on the face with the light. The highlights create a "mask" which define the face and make it easy to recognize even if blurred:







Outdoors you need situational awareness of the ambient light. Even in open shade the eyes will be darker than the cheeks because the brows still shade it. The solution is not to add flash, but simply to raise the eyes into the same light that is hitting the brighter cheek. Raise the face an bring a step ladder along so you can raise the camera angle by the same amount, keeping the relationship of face and camera the same as eye level.

When canoeing you can go with the flow, or fight the current. With lighting outdoors you can put the sun to the back of the subject and get the full benefit of the wonderfully soft light from the sky - so soft you don't need much if any modification on the flash you add to it. Or you can choose to "paddle upstream" and fight the direct sun on the front of the subject, which takes much more equipment and winds up looking harsher unless scrims are used to diffuse the direct sun.

I'm not advocating using just direct flash. That was just to show a baseline of what direct flash will produce, which on the face is rather smooth transitions. If you were to duplicate that set-up starting with direct flash, then add progressively larger modifiers you'll find that the character of the light changes more in the highlights. Direct flash creates specular highlights. As the modifer size increases the highlight transitions will become smoother and the catchlights in the eyes larger

All lighting solutions need to balance results with logistics. Its possible to get pleasing results outdoors with just a single flash - if one knows how to use it with the ambient light effectively. The results will certainly be better as modifer size is increased, but that complicates the logistics outdoors on a windy day if working alone. If you test starting with two direct lights, then add larger modifers, you will be able to find the point where the logistics of the modifers become more work that the difference in results warrant. That will be different for everyone, and the only way to find out is to experiment.

Chuck



Nov 16, 2009 at 01:11 PM
Two23
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p.1 #7 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


A fold up reflector can be very useful too.


Kent in SD

Nov 16, 2009 at 02:17 PM
saaketham
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p.1 #8 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Thanks a lot for info Chuck .. and everyone else. I normally shoot portraits using natural light and some fill light, but recently, I had to shoot portraits for a family in twilight and extending into night. They insisted on doing it that day, in cramped quarters. Thankfully, there were light-colored walls and ceilings to bounce, but I only had 1 flash that I normally use for fill, so many of the photos had shadow under chin. I ordered a big diffuser yesterday, hopefully that'll help a bit now and when I eventually get 1 or 2 more flashes to use remotely.

mervifwdc wrote:
it also depends on what you call outdoor. If you are trying to overpower strong sunlight, then you'll need more power than if your trying to light a specific subject/model in a darker area (like a forest or shade of a building).


Mostly for interesting backlighting in darker conditions, diffused side light in shade, etc.

Nov 16, 2009 at 07:21 PM
Ralph Thompson
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p.1 #9 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


+1 for Chuck He knows his stuff! Never under estimate the vivitar 285. I've got 5 of them (haven't used them all at one time "yet"). They fit nicely into softboxes, umbrellas etc... A lot cheaper than 580's (I have three of those too).

Nov 20, 2009 at 06:38 AM
HungV
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p.1 #10 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


This one I took with only one flash (Canon 540EZ off camera).

This image is copyrighted by the owner


Nov 22, 2009 at 07:28 PM
paulhodson
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p.1 #11 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


cgardner wrote:
Outdoors if you put the back of the subject to the sun you have the equivalent of a four light set-up indoors: The sun provides back-rim (i.e. hair) light directly, and the light reflecting from the sky illuminates the background and contributes to main and fill.



Dammit Chuck - you need to be more international. What is the sun

Nov 22, 2009 at 08:57 PM
Sid Ceaser
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p.1 #12 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


It absolutely is possible. And fun!

A couple of quick examples:

Sunpak 120j to camera right in a Westcott 28" softbox:


This image is copyrighted by the owner





Canon 580ex in 28" Westcott camera right. Subjects back to sunset for rim:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Plenty of more examples HERE

Cheers,
Sid

Nov 22, 2009 at 10:09 PM
kenyee
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p.1 #13 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Short answer is for fill yes during midday 10-3pm. Closer to sunset/sunrise, it'll work a lot better as a key and you don't need big studio strobes, so as long as you can control the shooting time, it'll work...

Nov 22, 2009 at 10:16 PM
ctxmonitor
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p.1 #14 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Sid, that is some awesome photos!!! There are so much to learn on lighting..

Nov 23, 2009 at 06:34 AM
saaketham
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p.1 #15 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Hey .. thanks a lot for the sample photos and all the info, folks. Really helped.

Today, I drove to the only real camera store in Oklahoma City and bought 2 light stands, 2 flash plates, 2 mounts for the flash/light/umbrella and 2 umbrellas. Tried out some macro and some still life photos with just 1 flash/umbrella/stand. And the lighting is so much better than just 1 flash pointing from the front. Oh man. I used my Canon 7D's built-in flash control feature and lit the background with the flash and used the 7D's on-board flash to light the subject and the background didn't have any shadow. Wow .. if only I had this a while back when I was trying my best to eliminate shadow.

Nov 29, 2009 at 02:58 AM
Velu01
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p.1 #16 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


saaketham wrote:
Hey .. thanks a lot for the sample photos and all the info, folks. Really helped.

Today, I drove to the only real camera store in Oklahoma City and bought 2 light stands, 2 flash plates, 2 mounts for the flash/light/umbrella and 2 umbrellas. Tried out some macro and some still life photos with just 1 flash/umbrella/stand. And the lighting is so much better than just 1 flash pointing from the front. Oh man. I used my Canon 7D's built-in flash control feature and lit the background with the flash and used the 7D's on-board flash to light the subject and the background didn't have any shadow. Wow .. if only I had this a while back when I was trying my best to eliminate shadow.


Post examples please !


Rgds
Velu


Nov 29, 2009 at 11:39 AM
saaketham
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p.1 #17 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Just a few indoors examples.

With 1st flash in front and 2nd flash to a side





With just 1 flash in front (shadow in the background)





With 1st flash in front and 2nd flash lighting up the background, but some light bounced back from the wall behind, through the bottle and gave the whisky inside a golden color






Edited on Nov 30, 2009 at 01:01 PM · View previous versions


Nov 29, 2009 at 07:27 PM
swanny338
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p.1 #18 · Outdoor with just 2 flashes?


Just shot this one tonight during magic hour.... What little light was left was enhanced with a single bare 580exII edge light.




This image is copyrighted by the owner




Nov 30, 2009 at 07:00 AM

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