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Archive 2009 · Einsteins 640....Dec??
  
 
photomarvin
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p.19 #1 · p.19 #1 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Do we really know the price? I keep seeing mentions of Paul having to increase the price now?


Mar 08, 2010 at 06:48 PM
MDteX
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p.19 #2 · p.19 #2 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Wow did Paul leave himself open for lots of comments. I will keep my mouth shut.... Maybe live and learn.


Mar 08, 2010 at 07:25 PM
amplexis
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p.19 #3 · p.19 #3 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


photomarvin wrote:
Paul - I'm really happy for your past achievements. Not sure what bearing that has on the current conversation though.


as Patrick Henry said: "I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past"
someone who has a record of breaking new ground and shipping products that enable the masses has credibility. if you think about it; the value of any investment is determined by the likelihood of it's delivering what it promises.



Mar 08, 2010 at 07:42 PM
shaunmlavery
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p.19 #4 · p.19 #4 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


photomarvin wrote:
shaunmlavery - really? You are that much of a fanboy? I mean yes Paul had done some great things in the PAST. That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

A prototype of the Einstein is real...sure, great...so where is the real thing?


Actually I am not a fanboy at all. I have never been thrilled with the alien bees build quality and have been on the fence with the white lightning because I have been around them. I love the way my profoto stuff works but to me they are not really cost effective. When you look at Paul's credentials, I would say they speak for themselves. Regardless if you shoot his lights or not, we have seen price cuts in studio lighting because he puts out competive lights. Competition is good for the consumer. I am an Apple guy but I enjoy when micorsoft/google/etc. spice up the competition bc it keeps apple on it's toes and it keeps them in check. Another thing that is amazing about his company is the customer service. I have heard countless stories first hand from my friends who shoot this stuff and let me tell you, when my profoto gear broke I didn't get treated like that, hell, I was lucky to get a call back. I mean, where else can you discuss at length products and recommendations with the CEO of a company?

A fanboy I am not. I own one piece of equipment made by Paul Buff, a transmitter. I value the way they treat customers in todays world. I was simply saying thank you!



Mar 08, 2010 at 08:26 PM
Mardel
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p.19 #5 · p.19 #5 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


photomarvin wrote:
Do we really know the price? I keep seeing mentions of Paul having to increase the price now?



Yes we know the MSRP for the preorder

Einstein 640: $439.95
CSXCV Transceiver: $29.95

I suspect prices subject to change "with" notice thereafter. We will see.

We don't know this products BOM. Unless Paul tells us :-). I suspect this is where the tricky stuff is. Component supply, price, quality, etc. Initial production control runs for making new stuff is very costly. And after all the guy has to eventually get good ROI at its projected price point for years to come with the price and performance customers expect from his lineup.



Mar 08, 2010 at 08:27 PM
photomarvin
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p.19 #6 · p.19 #6 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


FYI from Pauls site:

The cost of everything Einstein put in that tiny package really adds up and we have global parts cost inflation so I must forewarn that Einstein is going to have to go to $499.95 in the coming months because of this. It's really an $800 - $1000 light, but I don't want to go there.



Mar 08, 2010 at 09:03 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #7 · p.19 #7 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


If you really want to know, the current cost of goods for Einstein is 62% of the selling price. Didn't plan it that way. Normal cost of goods for "distributed" products is about 20% to 30% of the selling price. Our AB cost is 44% to 50%. But, then again, we don't have a 40% middleman expense. At an ultimate $499 we still have to take some costs out to hit 50%. Taking costs out doesn't degrade a product - if done right, it can increase quality and reliability. Einstein is a $1000+ light if made by most competitors, but we have a slightly different marketing concept than most.

If you want it, buy it and we'll treat you with the greatest of respect and support. If you don't want it, nobody's twisting your arm. We have a dozen final version factory built Einsteins undergoing thorough evaluation right now and expect to start production next week. Call me what you want - I've been doing everything possible for a long time now . . . not in making the design right . . . that was done a long time ago, but getting other people to do what they promised would make it better, then finding out they couldn't. Walk a mile in my shoes and I'll gladly walk in yours - already have.



Mar 08, 2010 at 09:36 PM
Mardel
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p.19 #8 · p.19 #8 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


photomarvin wrote:
FYI from Pauls site:

The cost of everything Einstein put in that tiny package really adds up and we have global parts cost inflation so I must forewarn that Einstein is going to have to go to $499.95 in the coming months because of this. It's really an $800 - $1000 light, but I don't want to go there.


I see! So say $1000 / per light but for $439. So I order two and get an even further discount (10%) on modifiers. I can call and order form live nice people in TN as well. This is a win win situation.

Patience is a virtue.



Mar 08, 2010 at 10:07 PM
photomarvin
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p.19 #9 · p.19 #9 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


so says he...it does look really good on paper...i guess we will all know once they see the light of day!


Mar 08, 2010 at 10:19 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.19 #10 · p.19 #10 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


If a product is really "worth" a $1,000 you sell it for a $1,000 or close to that. Good business people owe it to their company, employees, and shareholders to make as much profit as the market will bare.


Mar 08, 2010 at 10:20 PM
 

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Alphabug
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p.19 #11 · p.19 #11 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Thanks for the info Paul..........

One final question before I order something...(Probably, definitely, either Elinchrom or Einsteins).................

When will they be available in Australia, and why are they so expensive in Australia ?

I ask "when" in the context of how long after they are released.

The reason for the question is the Australian distributor is currently (9th March) showing that they are out-of-stock for some products (PLM..but that doesn't matter) and their ETA is 31 March.

Now I don't know how long they've been on back-order, but it does look like Australians have at least a month wait for your goods from USA.

Not all that flash (groan...) when the usual (eBay seller) delivery times are around a week !!

Also, why are the products so much more expensive (after allowing for the USD=>AUD conversion) here "Downunder then they are in the USA ?

Thanks,

AB.



Mar 09, 2010 at 12:31 AM
shaunmlavery
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p.19 #12 · p.19 #12 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


photomarvin wrote:
FYI from Pauls site:

The cost of everything Einstein put in that tiny package really adds up and we have global parts cost inflation so I must forewarn that Einstein is going to have to go to $499.95 in the coming months because of this. It's really an $800 - $1000 light, but I don't want to go there.


Do you have insight to make such predictions? I thought you said you were going to invest in profoto gear a couple of posts back? If that is the case, I have a couple of acute heads you can take off of my hands along with an head extension cable, if you are truly investing in profoto gear.



Mar 09, 2010 at 01:45 AM
Alphabug
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p.19 #13 · p.19 #13 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Gregg Heckler wrote:
If a product is really "worth" a $1,000 you sell it for a $1,000 or close to that. Good business people owe it to their company, employees, and shareholders to make as much profit as the market will bare.


Consider..............

If Company "A" has two competitors, and all three companies, make very similar products, "worth*" (say) $1,000, and they all sell their goods for $1,000, Company "A" will in all likelihood end up with a 33% market share.

But say Company "A" sells his goods for (say) $600, there is a fair chance that he will end up with a market share well in excess of 33%.

It then becomes a commercial decision for the companies management as to what their bottom line will be by selling more units at a reduced profit, taking into account that more unit sales can also result in greater efficiencies of production.

Also, companies "profit" can include increasing the businesses goodwill and planning for growth and expansion.


AB

*"Worth" includes not only the units published specifications and build, but also intangibles such as perceived quality, desirability, reputation, availability of spares / accessories etc.....



Mar 09, 2010 at 01:53 AM
Gregg Heckler
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p.19 #14 · p.19 #14 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


"But say Company "A" sells his goods for (say) $600, there is a fair chance that he will end up with a market share well in excess of 33%."

That's only if you assume Company A can make a similar product for that much less that people want to try and continue to buy. The only way you can do it is to eliminate one of the selling channels (in Buff's case the retailer), cut costs, or cut your profit. In the case of eliminating the middle man however, you really don't eliminate all that cost. If you don't have a retailer/distributor stocking, selling, and carrying the receivables for our products then you have to bare that cost. So when companies say we eliminate the middle man, that is primarily a marketing gimmick. There are only a few ways to offer something with more supposedly more features at a lower price in the electronics assembly business. You take the labor off-shore, you cut corners in component quality, you limit marketing costs, you put all the profit in your own pocket, and/or you make it up in huge volume, . But you still don't sell something that is really "worth" $1,000 for $499 if you want to stay in business for very long. Or, you better be able to prove it. Once again, I have nothing against AB, they make a good product for their price range. But that's it. Just ask yourself if you've ever bought a product that is 50 to 100% better for 50% less?

"*"Worth" includes not only the units published specifications and build, but also intangibles such as perceived quality, desirability, reputation, availability of spares / accessories etc....."

Worth is a tangible and provable thing. If you don't get some real value for something you buy you probably won't buy it again. Published specs mean nothing until the product actually exists and works.



Mar 09, 2010 at 02:33 AM
E-Vener
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p.19 #15 · p.19 #15 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


"worth" is such a relative term. If P C Buff says it is worth "$1000.00" he may be is comparing it to a competitors product that sells for that price, while he sells his for $500.00. But the $1k price tag on the competive product may contain non material related costs related to distribution and sales (and necessary profits at those intermediate levels for the involved companies) or it may just reflect what they want to charge for it and the real material and utilitarian value is more like $500



Mar 09, 2010 at 04:09 AM
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p.19 #16 · p.19 #16 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Tail fins add to the price, too.


Mar 09, 2010 at 10:53 AM
jrsforums
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p.19 #17 · p.19 #17 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


RDKirk wrote:
Tail fins add to the price, too.


Yes, but they made for some classic cars in the 50's

John



Mar 09, 2010 at 03:02 PM
kenyee
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p.19 #18 · p.19 #18 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Alphabug wrote:
Also, why are the products so much more expensive (after allowing for the USD=>AUD conversion) here "Downunder then they are in the USA ?


You can thank your taxes and import duties



Mar 09, 2010 at 03:29 PM
Alphabug
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p.19 #19 · p.19 #19 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


kenyee wrote:
You can thank your taxes and import duties


We have import duties ?? I wasn't aware of that !!

And taxes....You guys in Massachusetts don't have a 6.25% state sales tax ?

Downunder we have a 10% "federal" tax, and no state taxes.

AB.



Mar 09, 2010 at 03:38 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #20 · p.19 #20 · Einsteins 640....Dec??


Gregg Heckler wrote:
If a product is really "worth" a $1,000 you sell it for a $1,000 or close to that. Good business people owe it to their company, employees, and shareholders to make as much profit as the market will bare.


I have to disagree with this. First, I don't have share holders - just myself. Second, this whatever the market will bear stuff is rather old school. Businesses who follow this are facing a brave new world where they leave themselves open to third world producers who are rapidly invading the US and Euro markets with cheap labor and cheap prices. Compare Walmart with Macys, or B&H VS the now nearly extinct local camera stores, Amazon VS the now defunct book and music stores . . . people don't want to pay more than they need to, and won't. What most want is the best they can get for the least money, and a sense of caring and support from the people they buy from.

I buy a lot of stuff myself and long ago got sick and tired of buying things that become disposable when they break (they all do), paying extra for extended warranties that usually have so many loopholes they are often not honored.

Let's say I have a product that costs me $200 to make, and I make it in the US when possible. If I follow the rule you suggest, I set an MSRP of $800 for it, then give 40% to a dealer network. I get $480 for it. The dealers don't stock the products (they can't afford to stock a bunch of ever-changing technology and can't get inventory loans anymore.

When you get to the store, they say "I can get it for you an a few weeks" and they really know little about the product. When it has a problem, they say "You have to send it back to the factory." The store is just there to sell, and passes you and the problems back to the manufacturer, but the manufacturer doesn't deal directly with customers, so you run into a brick wall of buck passing, policies and the near impossibility of communicating with anyone.

Now, back to the manufacturer . . . he still has to to the advertising and repair work, but he also has to deal with receivables (usually including half the accounts being 90 days late, collection agencies and bankruptcies, dealers returning unsold stock that is aged and often out of date . . . on and on . . . I've been there. In order to cope with the receivables and cash flow problems, both the dealers and the manufacturers have to depend on the bank to finance everything . . . and we all know where that is going this decade.

So, there goes another $100 in costs to the manufacturer and he ends up with $380. He ends up with a 53% cost of goods and you end up paying $700 for the $800 product because the dealer has to discount to compete.

My business model gets you the same product for $400, a direct line of communications to people who really know the product,no nonsense customer service, and always current product, usually shipped from stock. And my cost of goods is 50% and I have fewer money handers and more technical and customer service people (who I pay very well). But my bottom line beats the daylights out of the other example because far more people buy the same product at $400 than would at $700.

I'm not advocating everyone should do this . . . it takes time and effort to develop this sort of business plan, and it also takes employees who understand the process and management to match. The core is rather simple . . . do customers want to pay salesmen, banks and money shufflers, or engineers, manufacturers and customer service people? The GDP is largely in the service and financial sectors and this is crashing the global economy at an alarming rate.



Mar 09, 2010 at 06:05 PM
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