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666snairb Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #1 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters I was going to respond to John's original thread which highlighted some of his outstanding remote camera shots of cheer routines, but I think this might warrant a new thread given its focus on sales. John's original thread is here. I'm curious about the economics of floor remotes and multiple shooters at cheer events. For competitions at which you are the event photographer, have floor access, and expect to shoot 75 squads of 15 to 30 performers, when does it become cost effective to add remotes and additional shooters? For the remotes, the photos look fantastic and I'm sure the parents love the variety, but have you found that the sales justify the additional expense and overhead associated with running a remote setup? How do the wide-angle, multi-performer shots sell when compared to the individual close-up shots that you are capturing manually? Do you use another shooter to trigger the remotes or are you relying on the primary photographers to trigger these as well (with a foot pedal or other switch)? The remote shots that John posted in his thread are outstanding and I would assume that they would sell to just about anyone on the cheer team. I'm sure that there are many more that weren't posted because they were too far away or didn't capture peak action. Does anyone have any rough data that shows sales of remote or manual photos in relation to the total number of shots taken? For multiple shooters, do you have two different setups in hopes of capturing multiple views of the same performer (for example, one with a 200, one with an 85) or is the goal simply to get better coverage of the entire squad? If I capture 100 upper torso keepers per routine with the 200, do sales numbers scale if I have another shooter capturing a similar number of full body or multi-performer shots with an 85? Thanks for the feedback. -Brian Nov 11, 2009 at 07:55 PM

Hammy Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #2 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters Simple answer... you can't sell what you don't have. Remote - generally an extra camera and lens shot by an existing shooter is no more expense (assuming, shooter has an extra body and lens anyway) However, I'll dedicate a w/a shooter for large enough shows to get that variety. Extra shooters - with 4-40 competitors, I don't see any pheasible way that one shooter can get all the competitors just once. Even with two, it's very challenging to get plenty of shots in a two minute routine. If its a two day show, then its possible, but the sales potential is usually determined by the first day's show of pictures. For a one day, you only have that two minutes to get all of the merchandise (images) that you'll be able to sell to a team. It's not just about multiple views - its getting coverage of everybody - not just the flyers or cute ones in front, but the bases and not so athletic competitors in back. Timing and angles allow you to get more shots in the various formations. Personally, I've rarely used less than 3 shooters - like twice in 8 years. It's obvious to me in my sales and growth, that hiring multiple, great shooters is worth it. If the customers are happy, then sales and host relations are great, not only now... but for years to come. Nov 11, 2009 at 09:13 PM

P Alesse Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #3 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters 3 shooters, the variety and volume of shots makes the CD option a great value and that's what Hammy is aiming for. Don't forget, lots of the coaches and kids will use the images for teaching tools too. Throw in some great wide angle shots with the entire team and they can analyze their sync, form, and timing and see where and who needs to improve. Consequently, the WA stuff can become a clincher when it comes to buying the disk. Scenario #2, and this happens often... parents on day #2 will go to the shooters and say they want to buy the disk but we need a little more coverage of girls A, B, C etc. With three shooters, we can fill in those gaps and close the sale. Nov 11, 2009 at 10:05 PM

cbrus Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #4 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters No way can you effectively cover a cheer squad with just 1 shooter with one squad of say, 20+ girls in 2 - 2.5 minutes per routine. It gets even worse when you have large squads on the floor. I've seen some with 30+ girls/guys on the mat at once. Plus if you could cover that, you'd only be able to do it from one angle. 3 shooters covers all three major angles in my opinion and in my opinion Hammy does it right. I've been to a Hammy-shot competition (Destin FL this past April) and he's got this nailed down. Nov 11, 2009 at 10:29 PM

Scott Sewell Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #5 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters Between what Hammy and Paul have said, I'd say you can lock up this thread and throw away the key. Nov 11, 2009 at 11:08 PM

John Patrick Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #6 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters Let me throw in my two cents from another direction. There was a local (small, recreational, non-all-star) cheer competition in my area a little over a year ago. I didn't get the job, but someone else did who "had shot cheer before". I went to the meet purely for scouting purposes: paid my admission and sat in the stands with the parents and took notes. I watched what he was doing, what he wasn't, how the meet was run, and general layout. I also counted how many were on each team (wrote the number in the program I paid for). It was only him, no-one else. I noticed he shot in landscape orientation 90% of the time, and was using what appeared to be a 70-200. Afterward, I went to his website (he didn't sell on-site), and compared my notes against what I saw. An average team had 20 girls on the squad, of which he had 40 shots, total. Those 40 were broken down to about 5 shots of 8 different girls. So of the 20 girls on the team, only 8 were "featured" and 12 were basically not there from the photographic evidence (partial people in the background withstanding). Apparently he sold so little (and therefore the league got very little in commission), that they did not even want a photographer at this years event. Just one anecdotal data point. John Nov 11, 2009 at 11:40 PM

dpmurray Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #7 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters From shooting the cheerleaders during halftime at our county's rec football games - performing a two minute routine that they do in the county "Cheer Bowl" - you run into several limitations as a single shooter: 1. Filling buffer on camera (Switch cameras when needed) 2. Blocked girls (rows behind the front or for the younger girls that have the coach in front pantomiming the routine) 3. There's only so many good shots during 120 seconds Having two shooters or two simultaneous cameras will help on all three. Nov 12, 2009 at 02:07 AM

666snairb Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #8 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters Thank you all for your "real world" feedback. It's very helpful to get this first hand info from working pros who have solved many of the problems that I continue to encounter. I appreciate your advice and I'm working your suggestions into my work flow. Regards, -Brian Nov 12, 2009 at 03:50 PM

cbrus Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · Economics of Cheer Remotes and Multiple Shooters John - Funny you say that. I take pictures of my dauthters routines. At most I get 80-100 shots in a 2 minute routine and I almost always miss girls in the back or bases during stunts here & there. As most of the shows the pros are at, they are getting 3x that amount of shots. Even though I am getting some good shots on my own, my wife & I always find shots that the pros got that I don't get and we buy them all the time. When possible we try to get team CDs of pictures for each kid. Usually we get a better overall deal that way then buying individual shots. I think Hammy and most of the others I see at these shows offer team Cds (with minimum cost for the team). They would NOT be able to sell these if they didnt' have TONS of shots of most if not all the girls. Only way to do that is to have coverage. Nov 12, 2009 at 09:55 PM

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