A warning for amateurs...

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Archive 2009 · A warning for amateurs...

Erie Patsellis
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p.3 #1 · A warning for amateurs...

jeremy_clay wrote:
TTLKurtis wrote:
I realize that. But I like seeing shots that had intensive setup... Don't need to explain lol.

Holy crap, me too. Page 2, still no pics?

Tell you what, after the ad hits, if the customer allows it, I'll be glad to share. I license for exclusive use, and for this client, I do not retain usage for promotional purposes, at their insistence.

erie

Nov 17, 2009 at 02:45 AM

joezasada
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p.3 #2 · A warning for amateurs...

:-) wow Ellison is known to stir up controversy, I had no idea that link I put up would generate 2 pages of it...

Nov 18, 2009 at 11:09 PM

aboudd
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p.3 #3 · A warning for amateurs...

Let's face it, digital imaging and the ability to manipulate photos in CS4 can make some weak photos acceptable, but first the amateur has to have the knowledge to use CS4 in depth, that is a lot harder than taking the mediocre photograph in the first place.

I have been shooting as a pro since 1972. Amateurs are like gnats, buzzing around, garnering some attention and in the end, being of no consequence. If a client with rigorous demands for high quality considers an amateur to save his budget, he is an idiot. It is easier, given AF cameras with their myriad presets, and the ability to shoot 2,000 images at no real cost, for amateurs to take a portrait, or even shoot a wedding to someone's satisfaction. Unfortunately, that is the downside of digital photography. However, if your area of expertise demands talented vision and solid technique behind the camera and in post-production, something most amateurs do not have, a sophisticated client will appreciate the effort and you don't have that much to worry about. I think the bigger issue right now is the general economic slowdown. There is less work around, budgets are tighter and we have to adjust accordingly. This too will end.

A note to likecoolpics. I must be stupid or very slow. I have been shooting - as an amateur and pro - since 1965 and I learn something new on almost every assignment that makes me a better photographer.

Nov 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM

balls
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p.3 #4 · A warning for amateurs...

I don't get the argument that Joe should charge more, to keep prices high for everyone.

In market terms, that's price fixing and it's an anti-competitive practice.

Simple economics right? Supply and demand. Photographers are in high supply, so demand for their services is low.

If Joe charges more, then clients will just seek someone else out right?

Nov 19, 2009 at 04:11 PM

aboudd
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p.3 #5 · A warning for amateurs...

Price fixing? Only if other photographers agree to charge the same. Exactly what do you think are the chances of that happening? Photography like real estate is all about location or in this case, the particular market that in which Joe works. If his market demands high quality and he is capable of producing it, and nobody else does, in theory, he can set his price at the top end of what his client can afford.

Nov 20, 2009 at 01:30 PM

Kyle Yates
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p.3 #6 · A warning for amateurs...

Bruce Sawle wrote:
This is the way it is in every industry. Nothing new here.

Absolutely true -- I've seen this a lot in the I.T industry where "Off shored" facilities - particularly India undercut local consultants by HUGE amounts -- however the tide is beginning to turn as there is always a downside in using this type of facility - the huge cost savings perceived are often illusory and usually the whole business suffers with respect to customer service and product delivery.

Going cheap works in some cases - but in the long term quality always wins out.

I'm afraid however some "Lower end" gigs can be carried out quite competantly by decent amateurs who don't always have the same time constraints as a busy pro - and might be able to come back to the site several times for a "Re-shoot".

I don't think however if your work is solid and good that good gigs will dry up -
We might have to work harder than before to get customers - but that's true in any business - there's no such thing as "standing still".

We have to adapt or do something else.

Cheers
-K

Nov 21, 2009 at 11:55 AM

RDKirk
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p.3 #7 · A warning for amateurs...

I'm afraid however some "Lower end" gigs can be carried out quite competantly by decent amateurs who don't always have the same time constraints as a busy pro - and might be able to come back to the site several times for a "Re-shoot".

What we do have--and the only ones that annoy me--are the "professional" photographers who are (unknowingly) going out of business because they don't realize how much they have to charge to stay in business.

There had been a guy in a studio not within eyesight of mine who had been advertising, "We don't gouge you like the other guys" and charging prices I knew were impossible to maintain.

He's out of business now, but his "we don't gouge you like the other guys" influences market thinking, and the fact that he's out of business now doesn't impact prospective clients because there are always more photographers also unknowingly on their way out of business also advertising "We don't gouge you like the other guys." There are always plenty of "going out of business" sales--even though they don't realize their prices are going out of business sales.

That's what Ellison is griping about. He's not griping about amateurs--there are no amateurs in his sphere--he's griping about the would-be professionals who are unwittingly running "going out of business" sales.

Nov 21, 2009 at 03:17 PM

nathanlake
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p.3 #8 · A warning for amateurs...

RDKirk wrote:
I'm afraid however some "Lower end" gigs can be carried out quite competantly by decent amateurs who don't always have the same time constraints as a busy pro - and might be able to come back to the site several times for a "Re-shoot".

What we do have--and the only ones that annoy me--are the "professional" photographers who are (unknowingly) going out of business because they don't realize how much they have to charge to stay in business.

There had been a guy in a studio not within eyesight of mine who had been advertising, "We don't gouge you like the other guys" and charging prices I knew were impossible to maintain.

He's out of business now, but his "we don't gouge you like the other guys" influences market thinking, and the fact that he's out of business now doesn't impact prospective clients because there are always more photographers also unknowingly on their way out of business also advertising "We don't gouge you like the other guys." There are always plenty of "going out of business" sales--even though they don't realize their prices are going out of business sales.

That's what Ellison is griping about. He's not griping about amateurs--there are no amateurs in his sphere--he's griping about the would-be professionals who are unwittingly running "going out of business" sales.

No difference between the type of pro you describe and an amateur. They run their "business" the same way and have the same impact on the market. In fact, a good pro would really benefit from those guys that come and go. Start using the fact that you have been in business for X number of years as a way to differentiate yourself from the next pro that drastically under prices his product and will soon go away.

Nov 21, 2009 at 05:25 PM

RDKirk
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p.3 #9 · A warning for amateurs...

No difference between the type of pro you describe and an amateur. They run their "business" the same way and have the same impact on the market. In fact, a good pro would really benefit from those guys that come and go. Start using the fact that you have been in business for X number of years as a way to differentiate yourself from the next pro that drastically under prices his product and will soon go away

What annoys me is his slander--I'm not "gouging" anyone. I already know the real answer to him: Market to high-end clients who are shopping for quality over price. It's corollary: Produce a high-end product suitable to clients who are shopping for quality over price.

Price-shoppers don't care how long you've been in business. They only care about the price at that moment.

Nov 21, 2009 at 05:45 PM

AndyKellett
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p.3 #10 · A warning for amateurs...

RDKirk> The real answer is, "Joe is going out of business, but doesn't know it yet." However, prospective clients don't care about that.

I may steal your line because it is both succinct and true.

Best,
Andy

Nov 24, 2009 at 03:37 PM

pipspeak
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p.3 #11 · A warning for amateurs...

I'm a writer and I don't get what all the fuss is about. Writers, perhaps more than photographers, face stiff competition from wannabes because all you need to be able to "write" is a computer versus a computer AND camera gear.

Almost everyone I meet says "oh I write, too" when I tell them what I do, but when it comes to an actual paying job my clients appreciate both my track record and my alleged skills

Still, I'm sure I've lost a few jobs to amateur hacks over the years. That's the nature of the beast. I was one of those hacks once upon a time.

Nov 25, 2009 at 08:04 AM

nathanlake
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p.3 #12 · A warning for amateurs...

pipspeak wrote:
I'm a writer and I don't get what all the fuss is about. Writers, perhaps more than photographers, face stiff competition from wannabes because all you need to be able to "write" is a computer versus a computer AND camera gear.

Almost everyone I meet says "oh I write, too" when I tell them what I do, but when it comes to an actual paying job my clients appreciate both my track record and my alleged skills

Still, I'm sure I've lost a few jobs to amateur hacks over the years. That's the nature of the beast. I was one of those hacks once upon a time.

Not being a writer, I would think there is a big difference. Hand somebody a camera and anyone can produce a few good pictures. Hand somebody a pencil and pad of paper (or a computer) andvery few can write something that is even close to decent. It appears to me that writing requires more skill and patience to produce anything even close to acceptable.

Nov 25, 2009 at 12:59 PM

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