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Archive 2009 · A warning for amateurs...

  
 
RDKirk
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p.2 #1 · A warning for amateurs...


TTLKurtis wrote:
What are you guys talking about? I'm just saying I WANT TO SEE IT lol. Not because I think he sucks or I want him to prove himself, I'm just freaking curious to see what this 5 hour setup shot looks like, jesus lol.


An indoor architectural shot of a large room with many windows...it could easily be complex enough to require that much set-up time and effort. A food shot can also easily take that long.



Nov 15, 2009 at 02:44 PM
TTLKurtis
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p.2 #2 · A warning for amateurs...


I realize that. But I like seeing shots that had intensive setup... Don't need to explain lol.


Nov 15, 2009 at 02:53 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #3 · A warning for amateurs...


RDKirk wrote:
, Ellison has been a "pompous ass" for about 50 years, and it doesn't seem to have harmed either his bank account or his job prospects in all that time.

This video has to be comprehended in the proper context.

Ellison's rant isn't about amateurs at all. It's about major corporations thinking they have the right to take unfair advantage of everyone because would-be professionals allow it. In this case, a major commercial production company expected him--an extremely well-respected writer who has been at the top of his genre for decades--to work "for exposure."

The irony is that they want him for
...Show more

+1000.

I wish people in all creative professions, at all levels, understood this. Creativity has immense economic value. Yet the failure to have that value recognized by the consumers of the creative product is the responsibility of those who produce it.

People want to point at each other and say "it's the amateur's fault / it's the professional's fault." And all the while the corporations are laughing their way to the bank. It's an arbitrage opportunity for them. Like any self-interested party, you cannot blame them for trying to seek the best possible deal. there is a cost/benefit calculation involved and they know they have an entire spectrum to choose from, from the seasoned professional who charges an arm and a leg for reliably top-notch work, to the starving amateur who will sell his soul for a promise.

Let me tell you a story. I used to give away my artwork because I thought the recipients would understand the value of my gift. Instead, they saw it as nothing more than a token, something I could mass produce. And in many instances these same people would casually ask for more. "Oh, a friend's birthday is coming up. Can I have one of your pieces to send to her?" WTF. Yeah, um, no.

At first I blamed them for being so callous. Then I woke up and realized I had only myself to blame for creating that false expectation. By and large, people do not understand the value of a work product unless it can be expressed as a dollar figure. When I gave my stuff away, I basically said, "here, the value of this is $0." So now, I don't. Not even family members get my stuff for free. If it's a rare and special occasion, I will print it, frame it, box it, wrap it, do the whole thing up so professionally that one arrives at the inescapable conclusion that a lot of money was spent to make it. But no, I no longer give my work away for birthdays or holidays, because even then it's better to go to a store and buy some junk from Pottery Barn because then they see it has come from some corporation. That I bought it, and therefore has value.

Now, to get one of my pieces as a gift, you have to be a ridiculously special person in my life. More special than family. Everyone else can pay me what I think it's worth.



Nov 15, 2009 at 03:32 PM
nathanlake
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p.2 #4 · A warning for amateurs...


I agree with almost everything he says, but not the way he says it. Certainly, it is an insult to call someone of his caliber and expect to use his work for free, but I don't blame the amateurs for giving their work away for free. That is the definition of being an amateur. Professional football players get paid big money to entertain us, but college football players get little or nothing for providing the same service. I don't see anyone complaining about the college football player.

What Ellison is really complaining about is that he is required to compete against the amateurs...not something that happens in sports. That is just the way the photography business has evolved over the past few years. Digital photography has changed the way the business works. The technology is great, but it does make it possible for someone with less skills and experience to produce a very high quality product.



Nov 15, 2009 at 04:32 PM
likecoolpics
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p.2 #5 · A warning for amateurs...


Supply and demand my friends. The barrier to entry into the field of photography is small, relatively speaking. After a year of practice, a good, ambitious student will be able to come up with some damn good shots. On top of that its an enjoyable hobby for MANY people. Lots of supply relative to demand lowers the price.


Nov 15, 2009 at 04:44 PM
Marty Bingham
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p.2 #6 · A warning for amateurs...


nathanlake wrote:
I agree with almost everything he says, but not the way he says it.


Yeah, me too.

Marty



Nov 15, 2009 at 04:49 PM
furnaceman
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p.2 #7 · A warning for amateurs...


This is the world of business.

I could apply everything said here to my industry...hvac.

Most people are so ignorant they put their own families health and safety on the line, to save a few bucks.

Not to mention the fact that they will be paying and either wasting or saving, thousands of dollars a year, for the next 15 to 20 years depending on their hiring of a professional contractor, or an "amateur".

All any of us can do is deliver a first class, top quality product with excellent service.

Stewart



Nov 15, 2009 at 05:07 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #8 · A warning for amateurs...


If it's a rare and special occasion, I will print it, frame it, box it, wrap it, do the whole thing up so professionally that one arrives at the inescapable conclusion that a lot of money was spent to make it. But no, I no longer give my work away for birthdays or holidays, because even then it's better to go to a store and buy some junk from Pottery Barn because then they see it has come from some corporation. That I bought it, and therefore has value.

Unless I value the relationship so much that I'd pay as much for their gift as I charge for my work, I don't "give" them my work--and just like you, it will be so professionally packaged that it's clearly of professional value.

If I don't like them that much, I'll just give them a Hallmark. You're right, people seldom esteem what they get without cost.



Nov 15, 2009 at 06:22 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #9 · A warning for amateurs...


I agree with almost everything he says, but not the way he says it.

That's the way Harlan Ellison says everything.

What Ellison is really complaining about is that he is required to compete against the amateurs...not something that happens in sports.

No, he's not complaining about amateurs. That's what has to be understood in the context of his rant. In the Hollywood cinema business, there are few "amateurs." Even writers are unionized. He's complaining about professional writers who are willing to work for nothing.

And that's basically all I complain about in photography. I'm not complaining about my buddy Eric who hits me up for advice and information so he can take pictures of his daughter doing gymnastics. I complain about the so-called "professional" who used to have a studio within sight of mine and advertised "I don't gouge you like the others" while charging a rate I knew good and well could not--and did not--keep him in business.

Yes, he's out of business, but there are always enough "professionals" on the way out of business by charging too little to keep me responding to "Why do you charge more than Joe?" The real answer is, "Joe is going out of business, but doesn't know it yet." However, prospective clients don't care about that.

Edited on Nov 15, 2009 at 06:35 PM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2009 at 06:26 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #10 · A warning for amateurs...


Isn't it an unfortunate commentary on the society we live in, when things which are mass produced with near-identical precision by faceless corporations are valued more than those things which a single individual, with his or her own inspiration and hard work, creates as a one-of-a-kind?

I have been to craft shows in which handcrafted, unique works such as wood-turned bowls, framed photography, and ceramic tableware, are sold at what I consider to be bargain basement prices. And people will try to haggle them down! Yet go to a Crate and Barrel and something mass produced costs twice as much. People won't buy a beautifully glazed, handmade porcelain coffee mug for $10 but would buy a slipcast mug with hideous enameled decoration from Pottery Barn for $15.



Nov 15, 2009 at 06:34 PM
Andrew Wood
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p.2 #11 · A warning for amateurs...


Isn't it an unfortunate commentary on the society we live in, when things which are mass produced with near-identical precision by faceless corporations are valued more than those things which a single individual, with his or her own inspiration and hard work, creates as a one-of-a-kind?

Frankly I'm glad my cameras are produced by faceless corporations

Imagine what a hand-made sensor would be like.

The more "near-identical precision" there is, the better. Look how people here complain about how they sometimes have to take back a new lens or a camera to the shop before they get a better copy.

[Edited to add paras 2 and 3]



Nov 15, 2009 at 09:23 PM
wickerprints
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p.2 #12 · A warning for amateurs...


Andrew Wood wrote:
Frankly I'm glad my cameras are produced by faceless corporations

Imagine what a hand-made sensor would be like.

The more "near-identical precision" there is, the better. Look how people here complain about how they sometimes have to take back a new lens or a camera to the shop before they get a better copy.

[Edited to add paras 2 and 3]


Is the tool more valuable than the output it produces? Which is more valuable to you, your camera, or your photo collection?

Does the painter value the uniformity and quality of his paints, brushes, and canvas more than he values the painting?

Would you rather own an original painting, or a print of one?

My point is not about the utility of mass production. It is about the fact that our industrialized society has lost touch with the beauty of the handmade object.



Nov 15, 2009 at 10:17 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #13 · A warning for amateurs...


TTLKurtis wrote:
I realize that. But I like seeing shots that had intensive setup... Don't need to explain lol.


Holy crap, me too. Page 2, still no pics?



Nov 15, 2009 at 11:57 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #14 · A warning for amateurs...


I have been to craft shows in which handcrafted, unique works such as wood-turned bowls, framed photography, and ceramic tableware, are sold at what I consider to be bargain basement prices. And people will try to haggle them down! Yet go to a Crate and Barrel and something mass produced costs twice as much. People won't buy a beautifully glazed, handmade porcelain coffee mug for $10 but would buy a slipcast mug with hideous enameled decoration from Pottery Barn for $15.

What you're saying is that the culture is losing its art. That is, indeed, a shame because art is the first or second thing homo sapiens invented (depending on whether you think religion is invented or bequeathed--and art was originally intertwined with religion anyway). But, yes, we are losing it--you see that in music and other areas as well.



Nov 16, 2009 at 07:30 AM
hk_mtbr
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p.2 #15 · A warning for amateurs...


"If you give it away, they 'know' what it is worth...I had this battle today.

I stood firm and it feels good...not great but good. I would have liked to do the job but not for free.

Not sure who wrote the quote but someone told me that years ago and it has stuck with me...not that I always listen to it - but it is generally true. just my $0.02.



Nov 16, 2009 at 01:51 PM
nathanlake
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p.2 #16 · A warning for amateurs...


hk_mtbr wrote:
"If you give it away, they 'know' what it is worth...I had this battle today.

I stood firm and it feels good...not great but good. I would have liked to do the job but not for free.

Not sure who wrote the quote but someone told me that years ago and it has stuck with me...not that I always listen to it - but it is generally true. just my $0.02.



I don't think that saying is as true as it used to be. At an individual level that may still be true, but when 20 milion people have a camera and they are all trying to give thier pictures away...some of them are valuable to someone. Look at Google, Yahoo, even Reuters. They have all set up systems for photographers to give their pictures to them. And they are building a huge library. It must be worth quite a bit or those companies would not be doing it.



Nov 16, 2009 at 03:58 PM
mdude85
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p.2 #17 · A warning for amateurs...


nathanlake wrote:
I don't think that saying is as true as it used to be. At an individual level that may still be true, but when 20 milion people have a camera and they are all trying to give thier pictures away...some of them are valuable to someone. Look at Google, Yahoo, even Reuters. They have all set up systems for photographers to give their pictures to them. And they are building a huge library. It must be worth quite a bit or those companies would not be doing it.


Sites like Yahoo/Flickr that are generating databases of images to license to third parties are not quite the same as sites like Reuters that allow people to upload and publish their images for free.

All these companies are getting something for nothing, but the difference is that Flickr is licensing its images to Getty (eventually the author of the photo should get a cut of the revenue) while Reuters is just trying to increase its level of news coverage without having to hire a bunch of expensive journalists and photographers (in addition to trying to generate consumer interest in its brand). Of course Reuters also has the right to sub-license your photos, but that does not seem to be its primary aim.



Nov 16, 2009 at 04:32 PM
gwaww
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p.2 #18 · A warning for amateurs...


So, I wonder how many "professionals" started out as professionals? Why would anyone want to deter someone else from following in their footsteps? If the OP spends all that time setting up lighting and an amateur can compete without doing that then something is wrong. This business is like any other, the bulk of what you are doing is selling yourself. Remember, you never make your candle any brighter by blowing someone else's out. I had a photo business at one time but decided to do something else. I now bulid custom cabinets and furniture. Ever heard of Home Depot, Lowe's, etc,etc. And you think you have competion! I love to be able to compare who I am and what I do to others.


Nov 16, 2009 at 04:47 PM
j.curtis
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p.2 #19 · A warning for amateurs...


It amazes me on how much effort people put into devaluing Joe who is supposedly devaluing you.

You can not control others; you can only control yourself. Unless Joe Freebie is offering a product as good as yours what are you worried about? Many of you act as if you were ripping off customers and now have nothing worth the value you charge.



Nov 16, 2009 at 05:53 PM
nathanlake
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p.2 #20 · A warning for amateurs...


j.curtis wrote:
It amazes me on how much effort people put into devaluing Joe who is supposedly devaluing you.

You can not control others; you can only control yourself. Unless Joe Freebie is offering a product as good as yours what are you worried about? Many of you act as if you were ripping off customers and now have nothing worth the value you charge.



I think that is the point. Uncle Joe is quite capable of producing an image that is equal in quality to that taken by a professional photographer (in some cases).

There are a number of ways to compete with that....

1. Consistency - While Uncle Joe can produce some great images, a good professional should be able to do that day after day. Uncle Joe will get lucky sometimes, but other times he will not. And chances are he won't have the skill or knowledge to understand exactly why. Therefore your response is to focus on your consistency. Your marketing message is simple...Uncle Joe has his good days and his bad days. Do you want to risk one of his bad days happening on the day you get married?

2. Marketing - it is unlikely that Uncle Joe has a marketing plan...and very unlikely that he has a good one or the time and effort to carry it out. With only a little effort you should be able to out-market him and that will have great benefits to you.

3. Professionalism - Uncle Joe is by definition an amateur. Unless he is very unusual, he will often look and behave like an amateur. A professional must look and act the part all the time...not just sometimes. Don't show up at a wedding in jeans. Don't shoot off your mouth unless your brain is loaded. And NEVER do a half ass job, even if the pay is not the best. In the long run, it will pay off. One more thing...don't hire or work with someone that does not have this attitude. You don't want their lack of professionalism tarnishing your reputation.

4. Longenivty - Professional photographers come and go, but not nearly at the rate that Uncle Joes do. Plan on being here once your worst nightmare Uncle Joe has given up. You have the professional incentive to stick around. Chances are it is a passing fad for Joe.

5. Specialty offerings - You must offer things that Joe can't. If you go out to some of the websites run by Uncle (or Auntie) Joe, notice the types of things they do. Most use natural light or on-camera flash. Not because they want to, but because they don't know how to do anything else. The flat lighting you see on many portrait websites is a dead giveaway of an Uncle Joe. Some simple lighting, used properly, will make all the differnece and is something that most Joes won't offer. Good post-processing is beyond the abilty of most Joes. Learn it, or hire someone that can do it for you. Study the offerings of your competitors (both amateur and professional). Find something to set you apart (in addition to your style). Something as simple as a good HD monitor/TV for displaying images to customers will set you apart if they don't have it. Find someone in the area that is good with hair and makeup and contract with them to provide services to your customers. Most customers will not want it, but the fact that you offer it gives a good impression.



Nov 16, 2009 at 08:23 PM
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