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Archive 2009 · High Definition Panos

  
 
Donald Gray
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p.1 #1 · High Definition Panos


I start this thread so as not to hijack another here...

I start it of by giving links to a couple of HD panos that I have done... Nothing special but shows the potential...

Vannes, Brittany

Riems, France. Pano from the Cathedral Roof

Unloved Boats

All my panos have been taken hand held although I have just bought a NN5 Pano head but not used it yet.

Please feel free to hijack the thread but keep it on the subject of HD Panos



Nov 08, 2009 at 10:51 AM
freespirit
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p.1 #2 · High Definition Panos


Donald

Vanne, Brittany. Thats a very nice panorama.
I like the Cathedral view as well.

As it happens, I've been to Vannes on two separate family holidays.
Exactly the same spot as your panorama. I enjoy driving to Vannes.

What I'd really like to know is:
What else do you need apart from the PTGui and Krpano?
The light level seems pretty even from left to right.
Did you have to make a fixed manual exposure and adjust in post processing?


Edited on Nov 09, 2009 at 06:07 AM · View previous versions



Nov 08, 2009 at 04:16 PM
papageno
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p.1 #3 · High Definition Panos


I'd like to see you do these either early or late in day for more interesting light.....

What's the story on the piles of not-yet-reclaimed lumber?



Nov 08, 2009 at 07:23 PM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #4 · High Definition Panos


freespirit wrote:
What I'd really like to know is:
What else do you need apart from the PTGui and Krpano?
The light level seems pretty even from left to right.
Did you have to make a fixed manual exposure and adjust in post processing?


Nothing else needed.. Just a pano stitcher like Photoshop or PTGui (I prefer PTGui - it is fantastic...) and Krpano. I will explain the whole process I go through:

Pano purists will throw their hand in the air in horror when they read the following:

My technique - casual, point, shoot & hope for the best
Camera set for Shutter Priority - this is wrong, purists say manual exposure set for each exposure in the sequence.
Auto focus - this is wrong - hyper focal distance should be set for the scene in question
Hand held, swinging the camera left to right. Make a note of what is in the centre of the frame on each shot and place that item on the left edge of the frame...
(At least two gross mistakes here - hand held & swinging the camera)

Handheld? Purists would insist on a tripod - spirit level levelled.
Swinging the camera...eek! Purists: a proper pano head should be used to ensure that the camera pivots on the front nodal point...

I am not decrying the correct or purists way for taking panos in any way. It is just that when I am out an about overseas, I am usually in the company of our French hosts, being shown their countryside - It is not possible to impose on their good nature to haul tripod pano head etc.

What I am stressing is that you don't HAVE to have all that kit and spend the necessary time to take creditable and pleasant panos. There are panos that can't be done without the proper technique especially where objects are closed to the observer...

In other words, my panos are a quick shoot. Even a 360 pano took less than a minute to shoot.

Workflow
* Once you get a pano sequence in the camera, stitch them together using PTGui (or any other pano stitcher)
* Process in Photoshop - (crop, colour enhance/balance, sharpen etc.)
* Save as a *.JPG at full pixel size - Do not reduce the image size - big is beautiful!

For onward processing into an HD pano, I have found it very handy to make a separate directory for each pano and place a copy of the original in the appropriate directory.

D/L & install a demo of Krpano Flash Viewer AND Krpano TOOLS (both v1.0.8 beta 8) from here
(If you buy a licence the 'demo' stamp will be removed)

Install the Krpano Tools on the Desktop

To create a High Definition pano could not be easier.

* Use Windows Explorer to find the full size pano and just drag and drop it onto the Krpano icon on your desktop.... That is it!

Krpano will analyse the original pano then automatically:
- convert it into a sequence of 'tiles'.
- create the necessary subdirectories to neatly organise all the support files and insert the support stuff
- create the HTML page that displays the panorama.
- create an XML page where you can heavily customise the way the pano is displayed.
- create a krpano flash player to host the image.

And... That is it - The biggest pano I have done to date has only taken a few seconds to be automatically generated.... If you want to display the finished creation on the net, all you have to do is upload the directory where the pano was processes but do not upload the original complete pano - it is not needed now.

Questions?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that PTGui does a wonderful job of 'warping' the images to match the fit AND averages out the exposure to a very acceptable degree...


With all the above said, I have just purchased a NN5 Pano head and leveller so that I can do spherical panos - but that is another story...

Edited on Nov 09, 2009 at 06:11 AM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2009 at 05:57 AM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #5 · High Definition Panos


papageno wrote:
I'd like to see you do these either early or late in day for more interesting light.....

Me too but as it was a special invite at a designated time....

What's the story on the piles of not-yet-reclaimed lumber?

It appears to be a graveyard for old wooden ships - there were about 6 or 7 just abandoned half in the water. they made a fantastic playground for kids....

Zoom into the centre of the left hand ship - someone who is a wonderful artist has drawn graffiti of several faces, full of character!



Nov 09, 2009 at 06:02 AM
Fantagero
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p.1 #6 · High Definition Panos


not sure if people already pointed out to you before, but the pink man head was chopped from you vannes pano..

thumbs up anyway



Nov 09, 2009 at 06:07 AM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #7 · High Definition Panos


I know... this is one of the problems of making a pano with moving objects in the scene...

See this one of Vannes Marina spot the headless & feetless!

More of my feeble handheld pano attempts are here



Nov 09, 2009 at 06:17 AM
freespirit
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p.1 #8 · High Definition Panos


Yep!
Been there.
Vannes Marina is very nice as well.



Nov 09, 2009 at 06:32 AM
freespirit
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p.1 #9 · High Definition Panos


Donald
Thanks for a detailed reply.
Will take a while to absorb the detail!!

Que at the moment: Does PTGui or Krpano allow a light adjustment to even out the lighting



Nov 09, 2009 at 07:32 AM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #10 · High Definition Panos


PTGui: I am not sure about the manual light adjustment but it does a pretty good job at automatic ajustments....All my panos were auto adjusted.

I use PTGui straight out of the box. However for the more skilled operator there are oodles of variables/tabs to choose from.

Krpano is purely a means of presenting the image. It does not do any adjustments or enhancements. It is a clever idea. By breaking the original pano into 'tiles' it will only fetch the portion of the pano that will fit the viewer's window. It works similar to Google Earth in as much as it will only download the next portion when the viewer moves the viewing area or zooms in. The viewer does not have to wait for the whole pano to d/l...That is what makes it a very quick method of displaying massive images.

I would imaging a conventional aspect ratio image from a full frame sensor (say 21Mpx or more) can be given the same process and display it very quickly... I will give it a try...



Nov 09, 2009 at 07:51 AM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #11 · High Definition Panos


Krpano works perfectly with large conventional aspect ratio images too.

I have just produced two, a horizontal and vertical as examples.

Taken with full frame 5d2 at 5616x3744 pixels

Test 1 - Bell, Vertical

Test 2 - Samarate City Hall, Italy

Zoom in, pan up/down & left/right (use mouse or icons)

I guess this is one way of being able to show very large images & artwork without the hassle of having to wait for the whole thing to download...




Nov 09, 2009 at 08:51 AM
SergeyT
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p.1 #12 · High Definition Panos


Donald Gray wrote:
I know... this is one of the problems of making a pano with moving objects in the scene...
[/url]


You can do the final blending "cleanup" in PS if you chose "Blended and Layers" or "Individual layers only" in PTGui.

Or you can get a 6x17 camera and a good film scanner for the price of an average digital setup and forget about blending and related troubles



Nov 27, 2009 at 07:06 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.1 #13 · High Definition Panos


Initial cost, yes. But a few thousand exposures later, you have new, improved, and entirely different troubles each time you press the shutter and hear a "ka-ching" in your head...


Nov 28, 2009 at 12:28 AM
SergeyT
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p.1 #14 · High Definition Panos


Depends on what you're after...

How many pictures do actually "see" the paper out of 1000 digital frames? And how many of those we really happy with?

The stitching approach looks nice until you try it...The following limitations become obvious:

1. Too much techical stuff...it makes the shooter too busy working...Beside the need in calculating shots per scene, watching for moving objects the composition details often take the back seat...We do not really know what we're taking until the frames are glued together in software...The entire fun of taking pictures goes away...

2. Gost objects in the final frame... Look at the first image...Headless guy on the bridge... He has been in the frame for 3 times already...The walking couple is headless as well...The blue car on the right is in the frame twise...

3. If there is a moving water or a wind - forget about stiching...

4. A big limitation comes from the fact that high definition results can not contain a combination of foreground and background objects...High def results require multiple frames to bee stitched together... It means it requires long focal lenth lens to be utilized. The mid to telephoto range lenses have limited depth of filed (DOF). Which means either background or foreground will be out of focus...To overcome limited DOF one has to use wide-angle lenses. How many frames do we need to cover 180 degree with a 21 mm lens on a full-frame body (5-6)? And sometimes even 21 is not wide enough...

5. No matter how good of a job the stitching software does - unless the frames are taken with a well corrected for a distortion leneses (means say good bye to most of WA lenses) the final image inherits some of the distortions. It hard to find the words to describe that but it just does not look perfect as if the same scene would have been taken as a single shot...




Edited on Nov 28, 2009 at 06:19 PM · View previous versions



Nov 28, 2009 at 01:51 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.1 #15 · High Definition Panos


Yes, it depends. But in general, I much prefer the trade-offs in digital versus those on film. It's OK if you have a different opinion, I just don't believe that you're "right". You believe that "...the stitching approach looks good until you try it...", and that's OK; but I've tried it and love it, so we definitely disagree. Point by point on what you mentioned plus a few others:

1. The fewer shutter clicks that turn into "keepers", the greater the advantage in digital. Whether I take 5 shots or 5,000... each click has real costs for film and development in the view camera, zero costs in digital.

2. The "too much technical stuff" is a personal matter and also offset by the "too much physical stuff" issue. I consider hauling a view camera around everywhere to be a huge hassle... but a digital camera I can take anywhere. Even taking pro bodies and top lenses, then adding a ballhead and a couple of rails to the backpack, is not a big deal. As for the effort involved in setting up a tripod and pano gear for a truly high-quality shot... that's not work, that's part of the love that goes into my image!

3. Digital allows me to frame, compose, and stitch in any ratio, not just 2x3 or 4x5 or 6x17. Not all panos are 180-degree landscapes, you know. How about a 5-shot macro pano (60MP total) for the exquisite detail to be found in each petal of a rose? Can a 6x17 camera do that?

4. Surprises are a fact of life. But don't tell me that we can't visualize, compose, and set up for a desired image just because it requires multiple exposures. Studio, portrait, stop-action, strobe, HDR, stitched pano, and a ton of other uses require multiple exposures and don't seem to have given anyone any grief until now. When trying to create a pano, I know exactly what I'm trying to create before the image gets taken, and there are rarely surprises. But even when there are some surprises, those are part of the fun of taking pictures! Sometimes I fail for lack of talent, but I wouldn't blame the stitching process... like any process, it needs to be employed properly in order to work well.

5. Moving water or wind do not constitute a major obstacle. That's, bluntly put, an urban legend. Yes, they are a factor for some images and compositions. So are bright lights in the background, subject placement in portraits, lighting ratios, and all sorts of other things we factor into our images. So what?

6. I routinely shoot panos from 24mm to 400mm. I see no problem with DOF or anything else. Use the lens appropriate for the image you're trying to create, that's all. And I can have a whole lot more lenses for my Nikons than I could buy for a view camera that would essentially do only one thing.

7. Distortion is again under the control of the shooter. Single lenses have distortion too, you know. But if you're good at what you do, you'll know the distortion characteristics of the gear you've chosen to use, and like any craftsman who knows his tools you will be able to manage their downsides properly so the end result is worthwhile.

This forum is about images, so here's one:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/59/293159.jpg

This capture is a 31.5MP (11700x2700) four-shot pano from a Nikon D200 at 70mm. I've printed it on canvas (150 dpi) as an 18x78 pano at native resolution. I've sold four copies already at $400 each. There are zero stitching artifacts, zero distortion issues, and zero problems that I (or the customers) can see. Maybe it could have been better on film, but I don't think so. Yes, there's a place for every tool. But it is simply absurd, and demonstrably false, to claim that digital panos are unusable and that the quality of stitched images is terrible.



Nov 28, 2009 at 02:16 PM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1 #16 · High Definition Panos


While I have to side with Rodolfo on this because I know his eye for quality, a beautiful Velvia 50 transparency from my Fuji GX 617 scanned to a 100/200 MB, is a wonder to behold, with a lot less hassle. I love digital to death, but there are a couple of places that film still makes some sense, the other being a 4x5 transparency from my Sinar P2. Once again, because life ain't perfect, there are trade offs, and the fleeting perfect light could be gone by the time you get either of those film cameras set and ready, but if you have the luxury of time and you're going for breathtaking quality in a large reproduction, they are hard to beat. The march of time and technology will ultimately make this response less true. The next generation 1Ds MK IV will be in the 32-38 MP range which is going to get you a 100 MB TIFF file, as you blend a number of those into a pano, it's going to be a whopping big file, somewhere around 140 MB!!


Nov 28, 2009 at 03:20 PM
SergeyT
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p.1 #17 · High Definition Panos


Rodolfo,

Please no personal offence!
Second, your shot just proves what I have said above - stitching works with mid to telephoto range lenses best.
Third, draw a vertical line (using the Line tool in PS) from the top of the left bridge tower all the way down (holding a shift key) along the reflection to see how distortion free your stitched image is. You may wish to do the same trick using a horizontal line drawn over some horizontal object...

The point I was making is that stitching is not the answer to everything. It has its shortcomings as anything else. And there are more of them in reality then might emerge on the surface. And before ppl jump into spending and disappointments they may want to know about them and consider an alternative approach...


JWilsonphoto,

Appreciate your honest opinion.
BTW, a 4x5 film scanned at 2450 ppi @ 8 bit per channel produces ~ 360MB TIFF.

My Best, SergeyT



Nov 28, 2009 at 06:14 PM
Rodolfo Paiz
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p.1 #18 · High Definition Panos


Sigh... no perfect answers to anything.

Sergey, the only reason I answered with such force is that I interpreted your earlier post to mean stitching was essentially a low-quality, stopgap measure to be used only when one could not acquire or use a film camera. If that's not what you meant, then we have no argument. I'm certainly not offended in either case, just not in agreement. Stitching, like anything else, is a process and a tool. So too with film. No process or tool is perfect, and each must be used to best advantage.

I just checked the original RAW file of that image, and the unstitched image has the same "leaning" tower. It's not a distortion from the stitching process but I do find it a little confusing.

Also, I agree with both you and Jim that there are times and uses where a specific tool just shines. I've certainly seen gorgeous panoramic images where movement was critical, or where the light was going to last mere seconds, and a single exposure on film was the only real way to get it. I don't discount the value (and in many cases, the beauty) of that particular medium. But in general, the tradeoffs between one tool and another are more about "getting to the shot" than about "getting the shot".

The "cost-per-click" factor makes film more expensive and less attractive. The weight, heft, size, and travel logistics make film more expensive and less attractive. That camera and scanner that you mentioned "for the price of an average digital setup" are a tool set of great value in specific situations, but that average digital setup does a whole lot more shooting and different kinds of shooting than the 6x17 camera will for the same amount of money, and that translates into an overall initial investment that is still much larger on film, never mind the recurring cost factor.

I do definitely want to play with some MF/LF film at some point for education's sake and because I'm sure I'd love the process as much as the result. But at this point, I don't really think film is likely to ever again be a truly important part of my workflow as it was in the past. I was happy with my panos on a 10MP... I'm delighted with my panos on a 24MP sensor now... and I can only wait in breathless anticipation for what the DSLR's of tomorrow will let us do at 30MP, 40MP, and 50MP.



Nov 28, 2009 at 07:45 PM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #19 · High Definition Panos


Hey Sergey...I'm having problems with your attitude. Take off your 'purist' hat off and really open your eyes to some fun. Throw the book and your magnifying glass away for a while. If you don't have any interest in HI DEF Panos - opt out of the thread...


SergeyT wrote:
Depends on what you're after...

How many pictures do actually "see" the paper out of 1000 digital frames? And how many of those we really happy with?


99.9% of my pleasure is seeing MY photos on the monitor (a big one) and on Google Earth.




The stitching approach looks nice until you try it...The following limitations become obvious:

1. Too much techical stuff...it makes the shooter too busy working...Beside the need in calculating shots per scene, watching for moving objects the composition details often take the back seat...We do not really know what we're taking until the frames are glued together in software...The entire fun of taking pictures goes away...



Bullshine, absolute cods wallop! Very little technical stuff is needed. The Hi-Def panos that I have done have been taken while on holiday. 99% of the time, I have my wife or friends who are NOT into photography. I have to shoot on the 'trot'. If you have ever done panos, you will realise that you DON'T have to calculate shots per scene.

OK some don't come out...SO WHAT! ... I have huge fun doing it anyway.




2. ....The blue car on the right is in the frame twise...


If you are going to criticise, get it right. Check the plates (registration numbers) two different cars



3. If there is a moving water or a wind - forget about stiching...

Wrong again! Try it.



4. A big limitation comes from the fact that high definition results can not contain a combination of foreground and background objects...High def results require multiple frames to bee stitched together... It means it requires long focal lenth lens to be utilized. The mid to telephoto range lenses have limited depth of filed (DOF). Which means either background or foreground will be out of focus...To overcome limited DOF one has to use wide-angle lenses. How many frames do we need to cover 180 degree with a 21 mm lens on a full-frame body (5-6)? And sometimes even 21 is not wide
...Show more


Again a load of cods wallop! Take your blinkers off. Have some fun doing stuff rather than worrying about the nth degree of perfection.

ALL of the following were done without any 'technical' effort, All hand held without any levelling. All using estimated overlap. I had FUN doing them. I got satisfaction out of taking them and stuffing 'em together.

Corfe Castle Taken @ 300mm using an upturned beer glass on an outdoor table as a tripod - early evening - air quality failing - Yes, I know there was dirt on the sensor & I forgot to Photoshop it!

Durdle Door 1 - I could fix the slight curvature in CS4 but didn't!

Durdle Door 2 - minor stitch artifact on horizon - can be sorted in CS4 in a few seconds...

A 360 cylindrical of a road scene. (I did use a tripod for this one)

Brittany - Hand held - with some moving water!

Trehigiur - Hand held, leaning over a balcony.

The whole point of the thread was to introduce Hi Def Panos to folk who don't know of it....

The above samples are from some of my early panos converted to Hi Def - I am still learning. I am still making mistakes - We learn by making mistakes...

BUT You don't need a huge amount of expensive kit & lenses to achieve a very acceptable Hi Def result.

This is the original Hi Def Pano that is saw and started me off. Huge detail and is a real jaw dropping work of art. This is what I dream of achieving:
Julien Kalmar GigaPano it is a staggering work of technical art!

Now for something a little lighter.. A couple of real 'cool' 360 spherical panos

Cool 1

Cool 2

Have FUN...Q.E.D.



Nov 29, 2009 at 06:06 AM
Donald Gray
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p.1 #20 · High Definition Panos


BTW: Rudolfo

I love that photo. It has real atmosphere. I can only imagine its majesty in full size canvas.





Nov 29, 2009 at 07:22 AM
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