Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

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Archive 2009 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #1 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Every now and then I like to poke the shortsighted, in this case those who poo-pooed the 5D2's video capabilities a year or so ago.

At the time I said it was a very capable video camera, but was given a list (a rather long one) of why professional videographers would never touch a 5D2, let alone use one in their work.

History has proven me right, but I give a chance to those nay-sayers to at least show they can tell the difference in a professionally produced film:
http://gizmodo.com/5391504/terminator-salvations-director-of-photography-asks-can-you-tell-the-difference-between-film-and-digital

The loudest 5D2 detractors from a year ago should be the first to take the challenge.
I won't mention any names. Shatterkiss

Nov 07, 2009 at 11:18 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #2 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Man do you ever have selective memory. Tell me, have you worked professionally in video since you instigated that previous thread, or are you still just armchair prognosticating?

If you'll remember, you were predicting the value of using the camera to shoot video at events and weddings. Myself and others were pointing out that, while it might be technically capable of producing high-quality video that it was going to be faced with serious challenges that would keep it from being used in that capacity...namely ergonomic issues, sub-par audio recording abilities and the need for quite a bit of outboard equipment in order to make it production appropriate.

As we all pointed out, the videos that best show off its capabilities, like what Vincent Laforet has done, have been made with far more resources than someone like yourself (or me) will have available...and, as such, aren't indicative of what kind of media you'll be able to produce with it.

Tell me, where are your event shooters using it for video? Where's the whole crop of wedding photographers who have displaced videographers, like you were predicting? If it's such a capable video camera, and since I'm currently making a little more than half of my annual gross in the video world, how come it's not eating into the work that I do? I shoot event video all the time, and the only time I've seen someone using it for video professionally was at this past NY Fashion Week...when a still photographer flipped into video mode to record a couple of clips just to satisfy his own curiosity, noting out loud that his client wouldn't have any use for it and probably would never even see it.

Yeah, a professional DP who has decades of experience and far more equipment than you can shake a stick at can produce high-quality video with it...how is this a surprise or contrary to anything I've said previously? It's a high-quality sensor with high-quality lenses. But do you notice that it's being used almost exclusively to shoot stuff without sync sound and in staged-action situations with significant outboard gear (like shoulder mounts, external HDMI monitors, focus-pull systems, etc.), exactly as I predicted? As opposed to having wedding photographers using it to shoot grab-video of the bride and groom walking down the aisle, as you predicted?

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:01 AM

CTYankee
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p.1 #3 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Give the guy a cheap HD cam and I'm sure he can produce equally stunning work. Your point here should not be how you were right (the reality of event shooting will say you are not) but rather that it is the craftsman and not the tool.

Its always funny to see a smug post like this get put it its place as shatterkiss has done.

Nov 08, 2009 at 08:24 AM

Beni
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p.1 #4 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

I remember his original post very well, extremely selective memory and a 'look at me, I was right' thread to try and back it up making the lie even more 'in your face'. What a jerk.

Nov 08, 2009 at 08:40 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #5 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

shatterkiss wrote:
Man do you ever have selective memory. Tell me, have you worked professionally in video since you instigated that previous thread, or are you still just armchair prognosticating?

If you'll remember, you were predicting the value of using the camera to shoot video at events and weddings. Myself and others were pointing out that, while it might be technically capable of producing high-quality video that it was going to be faced with serious challenges that would keep it from being used in that capacity...namely ergonomic issues, sub-par audio recording abilities and the need for quite a bit of outboard equipment in order to make it production appropriate.

As we all pointed out, the videos that best show off its capabilities, like what Vincent Laforet has done, have been made with far more resources than someone like yourself (or me) will have available...and, as such, aren't indicative of what kind of media you'll be able to produce with it.

Tell me, where are your event shooters using it for video? Where's the whole crop of wedding photographers who have displaced videographers, like you were predicting? If it's such a capable video camera, and since I'm currently making a little more than half of my annual gross in the video world, how come it's not eating into the work that I do? I shoot event video all the time, and the only time I've seen someone using it for video professionally was at this past NY Fashion Week...when a still photographer flipped into video mode to record a couple of clips just to satisfy his own curiosity, noting out loud that his client wouldn't have any use for it and probably would never even see it.

Yeah, a professional DP who has decades of experience and far more equipment than you can shake a stick at can produce high-quality video with it...how is this a surprise or contrary to anything I've said previously? It's a high-quality sensor with high-quality lenses. But do you notice that it's being used almost exclusively to shoot stuff without sync sound and in staged-action situations with significant outboard gear (like shoulder mounts, external HDMI monitors, focus-pull systems, etc.), exactly as I predicted? As opposed to having wedding photographers using it to shoot grab-video of the bride and groom walking down the aisle, as you predicted?

Zacuto, Cavision, RedRock, & others have offered solutions to the minor ergonomic shortcomings you mention and audio is a simple fix. Bottom line is that the heart of a 5D2 (large sensor & excellent lenses) enables excellent video and the number of professional users is large and growing. You know that and won't admit it.

You emphatically stated that a 5D2 would never be used in a professional capacity and are clearly wrong. Typing three paragraphs and challenging my professional use of a 5D2 does not change that fact.

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:37 AM

mikethevilla
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p.1 #6 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Tell me, where are your event shooters using it for video? Where's the whole crop of wedding photographers who have displaced videographers, like you were predicting? If it's such a capable video camera, and since I'm currently making a little more than half of my annual gross in the video world, how come it's not eating into the work that I do? I shoot event video all the time, and the only time I've seen someone using it for video professionally was at this past NY Fashion Week...when a still photographer flipped into video mode to record a couple of clips just to satisfy his own curiosity, noting out loud that his client wouldn't have any use for it and probably would never even see it.

I agree that there are significant challenges presented in using DSLRs for video, but I think it will get to a usable point. While I haven't seen "whole crops" of event video peeps using these, the two best (imho) wedding videographers are currently exclusively using Canon 5D2's and 7D's for their videos. Of course, they're very skilled in their own right, but there is a significant difference in the quality of their work pre and post DSLR - and they'll be the first to admit that.

Still Motion & Mind Castle

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:46 AM

lacisnot
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p.1 #7 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=822442&highlight=wedding+video

^^ was original thread

here is the video http://vimeo.com/7102856

I think if you really wanted to you could use it professionally.. not if you were to take a full day of videos though.

Nov 08, 2009 at 12:48 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #8 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

I really don't know why I'm wasting my time with this thread (again), as you have a resolved point of view that you aren't interested in discussing, simply proving. But hey, here goes anyway:

Mike Mahoney wrote:
Zacuto, Cavision, RedRock, & others have offered solutions to the minor ergonomic shortcomings you mention and audio is a simple fix.

They aren't minor ergonomic shortcomings in the least...and yes, as I already pointed out, outboard gear is required to address them. The fact that you need a shoulder mount, geared focus-pull system and external audio mixer/preamp/mics/operator to get back to the operational level that even the most basic prosumer video cameras are at is not a minor thing. It's just the reality of taking a device designed for one purpose and trying to use it for another...it's going to have significant problems. Just because you can weld a trailer hitch on a Ferrari doesn't mean you use it to tow an RV.

Bottom line is that the heart of a 5D2 (large sensor & excellent lenses) enables excellent video and the number of professional users is large and growing. You know that and won't admit it.

I've been the first to admit the quality of the sensor and lenses...but those aren't the primary concerns in achieving high-quality video. The ability to actually USE it is. If you can't track a moving subject, who cares how high-quality your video is when you keep losing focus? How are you going to cover events, when the action is unpredictable and you need to generate large quantities of footage, when you keep getting kicked out of record mode at the 5min mark? On the plane coming back from my gig in LA last night (a video gig, by the way) I was chatting with a broadcast producer who had the seat next to me, and he was pointing out that his contract with History Channel has a "no HDV cameras allowed" clause...you think they're going to accept MJPEG?

The number of professional applications for DSLR video is growing...but it certainly isn't large. If it was so large, why did you rush here to post the one recent notable example? Which is a proof-of-concept, and not even a professional use of the gear?

You emphatically stated that a 5D2 would never be used in a professional capacity and are clearly wrong. Typing three paragraphs and challenging my professional use of a 5D2 does not change that fact.

No, I didn't...I said it wouldn't displace professional video cameras in most applications. I said there would be very valid uses of it that would have very specific circumstances: MOS video, staged action that could be reproduced as many times as necessary for camera, stuff where the camera was locked down or not tracking action, stuff that didn't require live zoom or tracking, stuff shot without focus racking of a subject or shot at hyperfocal. In short, things like scenic stock, tabletop, motion-control. I said you would start to see it used in specialist areas that were very aggressive with low budgets, like music videos and web videos and web advertising and lots of hobbyists producing pretty videos with no commercial applications. I said it wouldn't make significant inroads into event video, ENG, broadcast and cablecast television, narrative live-action materials.

And you still haven't showed me your prediction coming true: wedding and event videographers being displaced by photographers shooting their primary video on DSLRs (as opposed to shooting B-roll).

My prediction is still that Canon's ultimate plan is to test the waters with video on their DSLRs...in order to see if it's worth taking the same sensor and imaging pipeline to place it in a body and structure that's more appropriate, making it essentially a RED competitor. That sensor and lens lineup placed in a video camera body with a more appropriate storage system would be a very, very attractive system. A DSLR shooting video is a curio with commercial value to just niche circumstances.

There have been very good articles written on exactly this subject in recent issues of magazines like PDN and American Cinematographer which are geared towards professional users and not just trying to sell cameras.

By the way, it's worth noting that I'm actually extremely positive on video from DSLRs and have considered picking up a 5D2 for exactly that purpose, even though I'm a Nikon shooter. But I'm also extremely realistic about the situations in which I'd use a DSLR vs. one of my other video cameras and I have no illusions whatsoever that a DSLR could replace my HD cameras.

Nov 08, 2009 at 05:28 PM

mauriceramirez
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p.1 #9 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

mikethevilla wrote

f course, they're very skilled in their own right, but there is a significant difference in the quality of their work pre and post DSLR - and they'll be the first to admit that.

Still Motion & Mind Castle

A couple more to add to that list...But with even lesser cams than 5d2.

Wedding videographer Jason Magbanua (vid shot w/7d)
Natl Geo's Ami Vitale (vid shot w/d300s)

Nov 08, 2009 at 06:09 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #10 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

shatterkiss wrote:
I have no illusions whatsoever that a DSLR could replace my HD cameras.

Hook a Z-Finder and an outboard mic on a 5D2 and you may change your mind. $500 investment.

Nov 09, 2009 at 11:08 AM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #11 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Man, you just don't get it.

I think I understand your perspective here. You don't currently do any work with video, right? So you're coming from the position of a photographer who sees an opportunity to add video to your arsenal...not from the position of a videographer who has to evaluate each and every tool on the level of "will this be appropriate for my client work?" So all you see are net-positives because you don't have any actual needs. Never having been in a professional video production situation you just don't understand the relative weight that these pros and cons carry.

Hanging an outboard mic off of a DSLR doesn't fix the audio problem: it's an unbalanced mini-jack, it doesn't push phantom power and will still require a preamp, it's only a single mic source (as opposed to the 2-4 that video cameras support), it still has no gain adjustments or level meters...so, for professional use, you still need an audio tech sitting between your mics and camera with a mixer managing the audio before it hits the camera. You might be able to overlap that body with a boom op role on some shoots, but then again you might not: when I go out on single-cam ENG shoots there usually isn't an audio tech and there's the expectation of mixing two mics on-camera. Again, using my job in LA last week as an example, everything I shot required manually-mixing two wireless lavs on-camera by keeping a close eye on their relative levels and tweaking slightly when necessary. You can't do that exclusively by ear...it would be like not having a histogram on your DSLR. And don't get me started on things like the lack of timecode, which is a dealbreaker in a lot of situations.

Adding a $400 viewfinder to the camera doesn't fix things...honestly, you want to get back to the base ergonomics that a dedicated video camera offers, you're buying Zacuto's "DSLR Precision Shooter" kit, which is a $5,300 expenditure. You need the LCD, you need geared zoom and focus, you need to stabilize the camera and get your hands off its body...you need more than just attaching a handle and an eyecup. There's a reason why video cameras have one shape and still cameras have another.

And let me reiterate: my mind isn't going to be changed, not because I haven't given the product a chance, but because of what the product is. I've tried it. I've tried the 5D2, I've tried the D300s. I've tried to use them from a video perspective. They're both able to create a better picture than my current video cameras...but only within certain very narrow circumstances, and even within those they make it much, much more difficult to do. And they're totally inappropriate for 90% of the video work that I do, which is fairly general work indicative of a wide swath of the video production industry. I would love if they were appropriate for it, as it would mean that I could go out on combo photo/video jobs with a fraction of the kit, but they just aren't there.

So far, the only video work that I do that they would be appropriate for are the kind of "behind the scenes" footage I take at fashion shoots, like the video I posted in the Lighting forum a couple of weeks ago: it's MOS, short clips are fine, you're working in low and imperfect light, you're shooting for atmosphere rather than content, you don't need to do a steady hand-hold for more than a few seconds, camera moves don't have to be perfect, action happens repeatedly so you don't have to be johnny-on-the-spot every time. If Nikon came out with a D700s that did 1080/30p I'd pick one up and use it for video, but it still couldn't replace my other camera kits for all the reasons I detailed above.

Nov 09, 2009 at 02:52 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #12 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

shatterkiss wrote:
Man, you just don't get it.

I don't think you get it.. do you?

Nobody is suggesting a 5D2 will replace every video cam on every set worldwide, which is what you continually say it is not able to do. You get no points for stating the obvious, no points for knocking a product for not doing something is was not designed to do. And no points for sounding like a broken record.

What it will do is exactly what I said a year ago it would .. provide excellent short clips in select situations such as weddings. And you said as much somewhere in your pretentious 4 paragraph tome above. Thanks for proving my point, even though you're a year late.

Nov 09, 2009 at 04:07 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #13 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney wrote:
What it will do is exactly what I said a year ago it would .. provide excellent short clips in select situations such as weddings.

Are you using it to do that and being paid to do so?

Nov 09, 2009 at 04:16 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #14 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney wrote:
Does it matter? .. does it make the facts any less true?

I'll take that as meaning that no, you aren't using it in the way you've been saying for a year is valid and inevitable. And yes, it matters...it's the difference between you just sitting here playing devil's advocate and offering informed debate. Basically, it's whether or not you're the troll that you seem to be and I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on.

Probably the only thing you're being paid to do on movie sets is fetch coffee.

So said by the guy who doesn't even post a link to his work here and won't discuss his own professional experience to qualify his assertions?

Here's a link to a news video about a live event I directed for the NHS and British Prime Minister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaWrDc7r0U8

Here's a behind the scenes shot of my "control room" at a live broadcast I directed for Prince Charles and his Climate Change initiative...yes, that's a portrait gallery in St. James Palace, attached to the Buckingham Palace complex.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shatterkiss/485330886/in/set-72157600213628463/

This is the view from my director's seat as I'm directing a live-to-tape cooking show at a PBS affiliate in New Orleans:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shatterkiss/2888370628/in/set-72157600213628463/

Here's my view directing a live broadcast/webcast for Cisco from the "Inside the NBA" studio at Turner/TNT in Atlanta:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/shatterkiss/3558944127/

Let me know when you want to in any way qualify your absolutely ludicrous posts.

Nov 10, 2009 at 01:35 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #15 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Spielberg and Shatterkiss .. pretty much the two top names these days.
So just how much do you get paid for your "directing a cooking show at the local PBS affiliate" work?

You're a pompous joke man.

After looking at your links I can only mutter three words:

Black, two sugars.

Nov 10, 2009 at 03:03 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #16 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

As for my showing my video work, I recall a few months ago when Shatterkiss was playing expert at being a commercial photographer (remember that one?) and you couldn't show any of your architectural work due to "non-disclosure agreements".

What a crock .. truth be told you've not shot a building in you life but that did not stop you from being an expert on licensing architectural photography. Talk about armchair prognosticating.

So stop with the "show me yours" posts .. they are just your transparent attempt at deflecting attention away from your shortsighted and blatantly wrong opinion about the 5D2.

Nov 10, 2009 at 04:08 AM

Nathan Whitchu
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p.1 #17 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

As a guy who does both video and photography I've been intrigued by the idea of upgrading to a full frame sensor AND getting an HD camera with the feel of a traditional film camera. for the cost of having to buy a 5Dii, put audio equipment on it, an external LCD, shoulder mounts, A miniDV recording deck (I only have a few steady clients and they all want tapes of raw footage) and being limited to the 4-5 minute recording time that the camera seems to have I'm better off just buy a Canon XL-H1 (for less money in the end to boot). It sounds far easier to run a camera with all this built directly in, instead of a cob-job of mis-matched gear to make a 5Dii work like a real video camera. I will almost certainly buy one, and occasionally use it (as a matter of fact one of the papers I work for has been asking about mixed video/photo coverage), but it will never actually replace my video gear until they fix several of the things I would need to strap thousands of dollars worth of gear onto it for.

Yes people are using it for professional video, but a large portion of the two wedding video links posted must be staged, and you can see in a couple portions the steadicam rigs they're using (far from the average wedding photog/videographer). The car commercial is done by a guy who could shoot it on 8mm film and pull out a better product then half the wedding videographers I know. But then again the top wedding photogs could probably use a P&S camera and deliver a top notch product. Will DLSR be used for HD video? yes, but they will never become an industry standard due to numerous setbacks and it's easier to simply buy a dedicated HD camera then make a DSLR work.

And I've been payed to fetch coffee on TV sets. I'm never going to win a Pulitzer, but I also get paid to shoot for two of the largest papers in my area and shoot commercials for numerous local business websites. I'm looking to switch over to HD this coming year and as much as I would love for a 5Dii to do the job, it just won't.

Nov 10, 2009 at 04:47 AM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #18 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Nathan Whitchu wrote:
It sounds far easier to run a camera with all this built directly in, instead of a cob-job of mis-matched gear to make a 5Dii work like a real video camera.

Does Canon have a in-body sensor based IS system in the works? .. some think it will debut with their next video capable DSLR. Are solutions to focus issues far off? .. after seeing the broad acceptance of DSLR video the manufacturers will not only include video, but continue to refine the product.

In a years time is it possible to see an DSLR with good video AF and IS? .. I think so.

Nov 10, 2009 at 02:58 PM

Brent Ward
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p.1 #19 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney wrote:
As for my showing my video work, I recall a few months ago when Shatterkiss was playing expert at being a commercial photographer (remember that one?) and you couldn't show any of your architectural work due to "non-disclosure agreements".

What a crock .. truth be told you've not shot a building in you life but that did not stop you from being an expert on licensing architectural photography. Talk about armchair prognosticating.

So stop with the "show me yours" posts .. they are just your transparent attempt at deflecting attention away from your shortsighted and blatantly wrong opinion about the 5D2.

Sounds like you have some serious issues, but why don't you have any work on here at all?

Nov 10, 2009 at 05:05 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #20 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Brent Ward wrote:
why don't you have any work on here at all?

At times I have had my websites linked here, and at times I have not.

If adding a photo or link is relevant to the discussion then I do so, but my usage in a sea of 5D2 video users is insignificant. The simple fact is that the amount of existing 5D2 professional usage is large & growing fast. This Ralph Lauren clip for example:
http://vimeo.com/7118904

Often whenever some run out of valid argument they resort to the "let's see your's" tactic to divert attention away from their positions inadequacies. This thread being an example of that.

If you feel my posts are any less valid because of a lack of linked work, you're encouraged to ignore them with the "Hide Me" button.

Nov 10, 2009 at 06:12 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #21 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney wrote:
This Ralph Lauren clip for example:
http://vimeo.com/7118904

It's a beautiful video and a great example of what a DSLR is good for and what it isn't: like I said, action that can be staged for the camera (as opposed to the camera needing to be ready for action to happen that can't be paused or re-enacted), shot MOS, not capably tracking motion or doing follow-focus, generated for the web as a final destination (as opposed to broadcast). This is the antithesis of how you've been saying that the 5D2 would sweep the video world: event and wedding photographers displacing event and wedding videographers.

You'll also notice that the video wasn't actually produced for Ralph Lauren...it seems to be for an online store called "Vente-Privee", which I've never heard of. They're trading on the Ralph Lauren name to bring eyeballs to their business. It's done all the time, and is certainly still professional work, but isn't indicative of what a company like Ralph Lauren would actually commission. If you click through that photographer's other stuff on Vimeo you'll see that she's doing the same thing name-checking a number of other brands...they're just fashion stills shoots translated into video, more than likely shot on spec or for the online store.

If you want to see a production that's more in-line with what brands at that level will commission, look at this behind-the-scenes video for Lacoste:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10V7EFjRImI

If you feel my posts are any less valid because of a lack of linked work, you're encouraged to ignore them with the "Hide Me" button.

I do. Bold assertions with no demonstrable experience or qualifications to back them up are absolutely pointless. If I started pontificating about wedding photography, wouldn't you ask how much experience I had shooting weddings? If I've shot one wedding ever, as a favor to a friend and didn't charge for it, wouldn't you think that my insights into that business might be a little less valid than yours?

You haven't been able to back up a single one of your assertions, whether with your own experience or the citation of others'. All you're doing is trading on anonymity in order to play agent provocateur for sport. It's a waste of everyone's time, yours included.

But sure, if you'd rather people hid you than expected you to behave professionally and with civility I suppose that's always an option.

Nov 10, 2009 at 06:42 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.1 #22 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

shatterkiss wrote:
You'll also notice that the video wasn't actually produced for Ralph Lauren...it seems to be for an online store called "Vente-Privee", which I've never heard of.

I suspect you've not heard about a lot of the newer creatives, which makes them no less valid. But spending time directing PBS cooking shows and press conferences can have that effect.

I guess Vente-Privee will just have to shut their doors.

Nov 10, 2009 at 06:57 PM

photomarvin
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p.1 #23 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Is this how professional behave? Wow Mike you should take a step back and stop attacking a fellow FMer in such a childish way. Agree to disagree, but why behave so immaturely about this?

And I have to say...at least shatterkiss can man up and show his work to speak for his expertise...what can you show Mike?

Nov 10, 2009 at 07:00 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.1 #24 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Personally I don't own a 5D MK II so have no experience shooting video with it, nor do I intend to. While it may produce a decent quality video clip, I just do not see the commercial application without all the additional hardware needed to elevate the video to acceptable standards.

If you're looking at the 5D as a convenient and opportunistic way to grab quick video clips while shooting an event, then it should work fine but then you're really not gaining all that much as far as the final product than you would with a dedicated video camera.

As already pointed out several times, the various videos referenced by LaForet et al. were anything but opportunistic video clips shot randomly while on assignment. Hardly video clips taken straight out of camera.

I'm assuming that since I've admitted having no experience shooting video with the 5D that my opinions will be discounted as well.

For the record, I hardly view Shatterkiss as pretentious or unqualified. Although I don't participate that much in the same forums as he does, I do frequently check for his posts as I find them incredibly helpful, and above all else, professional and non-confrontational. Actually I think that despite being verbally assaulted in this thread, he's remained rather composed and professional. Can't say the same as others here.

Nov 10, 2009 at 07:05 PM

Brent Ward
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p.1 #25 · Flashback .. 5D2 sux for video :-)

Mike Mahoney wrote:
Brent Ward wrote:
why don't you have any work on here at all?

At times I have had my websites linked here, and at times I have not.

Often whenever some run out of valid argument they resort to the "let's see your's" tactic to divert attention away from their positions inadequacies. This thread being an example of that.

If you feel my posts are any less valid because of a lack of linked work, you're encouraged to ignore them with the "Hide Me" button.

I just wanted to see if I remembered your stuff accurately. Your the guy that shoots log cabin interiors right?

Nov 10, 2009 at 07:14 PM


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