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Archive 2009 · Noob and a Flash
  
 
mh2000
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p.2 #1 · Noob and a Flash


>>Functionally there is no difference between changing power manually or changing it via FEC adjustment in ETTL mode: IF THE SUBJECT IS STATIONARY.

No, when you change your framing at all your camera is metering off a different part of your subject, and unless it is a gray card you have to re-adjust your FEC etc. since the camera is adjusting to the changes it sees... so you have to anticipate the complex ETTL camera function. Dumb flash is easier to anticipate most of the time.



Nov 08, 2009 at 05:22 AM
Jacob D
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p.2 #2 · Noob and a Flash


Chuck, you're a wealth of flash knowledge!

Your high ISO situation makes more sense after further explanation. I honestly try to avoid using flash in that situation because I don't have the skill to make it look good. This is where I grab a fast prime and turn the ISO up to 1600 or 3200 and let 'er rip.

Outdoors I typically (try) to...
a) expose for the bright side of the face (assuming side lighting)
b) not shoot in harsh direct sunlight to avoid racoon eyes
c) shoot in the shade or backlight or side-light with fill from the front or dark side of the face
d) try not to mess up or get any light where I don't want it, and sometimes succeed!






Nov 08, 2009 at 05:48 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #3 · Noob and a Flash


I always advise to get the best equipment one can afford, because one can grow into it as one gains experience. One may not think he or she may want more, but it often happens. If one settles for lesser equipment, there's less room for growth.

Sometimes it's better to keep using what one has, and save until later for something significantly better, rather than buying now something only marginally better.

That said, a used 550EX (or maybe even a 580EX (original, not Mk II)) might be had for US$150.00 if one shops around. That would allow for growth into wireless off-camera flash at a later date, if desired at that time.

On the other hand, there's much to be said about manual flash as a learning tool, and a Vivitar 285HV is a darned good flash even if it's never used in Auto mode. For around US$90.00 brand new, it's a tough act to beat. (And you can be saving for a brand new 580EX Mk 7 while you're using the 285 for the next several years.)















Nov 08, 2009 at 08:16 AM
jrscls
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p.2 #4 · Noob and a Flash


+1 for the Demb Flip-It.

Nov 08, 2009 at 11:05 AM
CW100
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p.2 #5 · Noob and a Flash


BrianO wrote:

On the other hand, there's much to be said about manual flash as a learning tool, and a Vivitar 285HV is a darned good flash even if it's never used in Auto mode. For around US$90.00 brand new, it's a tough act to beat.


If you're going manual the Chinese flashes are pretty good, Yongnuo YN460 or YN462 - for $35 it is even more of a "tough act to beat" !





Nov 08, 2009 at 11:36 AM
cgardner
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p.2 #6 · Noob and a Flash


mh2000 wrote:
>>Functionally there is no difference between changing power manually or changing it via FEC adjustment in ETTL mode: IF THE SUBJECT IS STATIONARY.

No, when you change your framing at all your camera is metering off a different part of your subject, and unless it is a gray card you have to re-adjust your FEC etc. since the camera is adjusting to the changes it sees... so you have to anticipate the complex ETTL camera function. Dumb flash is easier to anticipate most of the time.



That's not the case with evaluative metering which is "smarter" than that.

For clarification, by "stationary" I meant nothing changes: subject/ framing. Perhaps I should have said "if camera, flash, and subject are kept in the same relationship". The underlying point was that FEC and manual power settings both do the same thing: change the flash duration which affects exposure, but ETTL mode will compensate exposure if the scene changes, M will not. ETTL doesn't always compensate perfectly as scenes change where something is in the frame affects the exposure decisions with evaluative, and because the metering zones are still rather large and the metering can only deduce by comparing reflections what tone and how far away the nearest objects are. It makes a logical guess, but will only guess perfectly about half the time. The rest of the time the result is close, but requires tweeking to get the results you had in mind. Bottom line? The camera metering can't read your mind it can only react to the reflected light you put in the viewfinder in a programmed, logical way.

At the end of the day Canon flash / metering is what it is, and you need to learn to deal with it or move on to something else. I'd used something else, manual flash and various TTL metering systems for years, but I quickly came to the conclusion I just could not predict in advance how the camera would meter the scene. So rather than try to out guess with spot metering or dialing in adjustments beforehand, I started pointing, shooting, evaluating, then adjusting from the camera's "I think this is correct" baseline of EC=0 and FEC=0. I found I got to the correct exposure faster than way.

The best aid for determining ideal exposure turned out to be the "idiot light", the warning that blacks out the playback when the highlights clip. But to use it to record a full range of tones I needed to see when the highlights are clipping. I've always used control targets like gray scales in my day job in reproduction and printing, but a solid white looks the same, 255.255.255 if overexposed by 1/3 stop or 33 stops, so I looked around for something white but with texture and grabbed the nearest thing: a white towel. With some experimentation and comparison of camera warning to results in the RAW file I noticed the texture in the towel and skin started to clip at the same time. So the towel texture is an ideal indicator for correct skin exposure when setting portrait exposure.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




In most other situations there will usually be something white in the scene to use for evaluation.

The question the metering tries to answer is: how far away from me does the exposure need to be correct? When adjusting flash power its better to think in terms of where in the scene exposure is perfect rather than lifting and lowering the scene because the nature of flash is that its only correct at one distance. So if the point of correct exposure is in front of what you want correctly exposed use + FEC to move it backwards in the scene, and if the point of correct exposure is behind where you want it use -FEC to move it foreward in the scene. Logically you want the stuff needing correct exposure closest to the flash because otherwise anything closer would be overexposed (i.e., composing for flash)

Also in evaluative mode the camera is looking at 35 or 63 zones and knows which is the lightest, the darkest, the overall range and if it fits the sensor, whether the middle is brighter than the edges (i.e. person in the foreground), top brighter than the bottom (outdoor shot with sky in it) and make logical deductions as to flash output needed. So it will react and adjust to changes is framing much more responsively than simple averaging metering would. It creates a virtual map of the scene in the same way sonar or radar does, then tries to guess how far away and how reflective the closest objects are. It assumes the photographer isn't going to compose the shot with unimportant reflected junk in the foreground, or if they most understands how it will skew the metering.

The reason cameras have an FEC adjustment is because scenes can't always be composed in the viewfinder for optimal metering (i.e. the most important stuff closest to the flash). Sometime its necessary to blow out the foreground to get stuff further back correctly exposed with the knowledge the blown foreground can be dealt with via cropping or cloning when the file is edited.

With averaging if you shot a dark wall with a big white spot on it, moving around the spot in the frame wouldn't affect the exposure because the simple sensor mode would average it the same. But evaluative would change the exposure depending on whether the spot was in the center if the frame, the edges, top, bottom, etc. because of its logical assumptions about type if scene.

The more contrasty the scene, such as outdoors in backlight, the better ETTL evaluative seems to perform. One of the first tests I did after getting my flash is aim the camera out an open window to see how the camera would handle that tricky situation. Much to my surprise the inside was nicely exposed with the flash and the scene in the window nicely exposed also at FEC. Not perfect mind you, because there wasn't enough contrast on the wall to allow the metering it know what tone it was.

When bounce or modifiers like the FongDong are used the resulting scene and seen by the camera is a flat and uniform as an overcast day. With less contrast detected the metering isn't able to deduce what is in it based on the reflected tone. Also whenever the flash head it tilted the metering no longer uses the focus distance information because the focus distance and distance of the light path are no longer the same.

Chuck

Nov 08, 2009 at 01:55 PM
Mark Peters
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p.2 #7 · Noob and a Flash


Chuck - Have you tried the 580exII's automatic exposure mode yet? If so, I would be interested in your thoughts.

Nov 08, 2009 at 02:13 PM
mattr762
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p.2 #8 · Noob and a Flash


BrianO wrote:
That said, a used 550EX (or maybe even a 580EX (original, not Mk II)) might be had for US$150.00 if one shops around. That would allow for growth into wireless off-camera flash at a later date, if desired at that time.


I'm wireless right now with my 430ex. You don't need a 550 or 580 to be wireless.

You can see my wireless setup HERE.

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:47 PM
 



Jacob D
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p.2 #9 · Noob and a Flash


Good morning. To add one more point/question to the ETTL discussion...

I had read that using FEL would producce a more accurate result when shooting with ETTL. If I recall the reason given was that the flash would "spot meter". I tried this with my 5D and 580ex II and didn't see any difference between results. I'm not talking about a focus and recompose situation, I was simply attempting to see if the spot metering theory held up. Perhaps the 1 series bodies (or other newer bodies) behave differently. Maybe later I can dig up the source of that info. There was also mention of changing the camera's ETTL mode (under custom functions) to "average" rather than evaluative would improve metering accuracy under most situations. I did this and I *think* it made a small improvement. I never pulled out my manual to see what the difference is, and I admit that I haven't used the flash in ETTL enough to compare the evaluative metering vs. average.

Nov 08, 2009 at 04:35 PM
mh2000
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p.2 #10 · Noob and a Flash


>>That's not the case with evaluative metering which is "smarter" than that.

that's what I meant, it can be hard to out-smart a "smarter" metering system.

>>At the end of the day Canon flash / metering is what it is, and you need to learn to deal with it or move on to something else.

That's the bottomline... I don't have any problem with ETTL as a system.



Nov 08, 2009 at 06:00 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #11 · Noob and a Flash


Jacob:

FEL allows the flash metering to lock on something a specific distance from the flash. But when using it realize a few things:

1) Any spot meter reading tries to render the spot you measure middle gray. That's the nature of meter calibration. The meter can't know if the spot is dark, light, or in-between, so it provides the exposure settings needed to put what is measured in the middle of the tonal scale in the photo (Zone V in ZS parlance). If the spot measured is lighter or darker than middle gray, then its up to the photographer to INTERPOLATE from the reading to obtain the exposure needed to render the tone correctly. That's a function of the camera's total dynamic range. If the sensor can record 6 stops with detail (about average for most DSRLs) if you spot meter a white dress, you'll need to add 2.5 - 3 stops more exposure to the indicated reading to render it white in the photo. To render a spot metered face correctly in the highlights you'd need to add about 1 - 1.5 stops, depending on the tone of the complexion.

2) Flash is only correct in the highlights at one distance for any given power level. So lets say you set FEL on a face 16 feet away, and adjust the spot reading +1.5 stops so the highlights are rendered correctly. That will expose the face at 16ft perfectly, but if there are also faces 11ft away they will be over-exposed by 1-stop. Any faces at 8ft will be overexposed by 2 stops. Those at 6ft will be over-exposed by 3 stop. So FEC will provide correct exposure on the spot that is measured (after interpolation) but it will not suspend the laws of physics regarding light propagation.

All things considered I think its easier and faster to just use the clipping warning and scene highlights to gauge when flash exposure is correct. Raise FEC to the point where any more flash would cause clipping in what you want correctly exposed. In the scenario above with a person at 16th the warning would tell you closer objects are clipping. That allows you to make a more informed decision to either: 1) shoot as cropped and allow the foreground to be blown out, or; 2) change the camera position or flash strategy to avoid putting anything closer to the flash source than what you want correctly exposed.

What I conclude with Canon metering is that trying to outsmart it is a futile exercise, so when shooting new scene I just let it take its "best shot" at FEC=0 in evaluative and see where it lands (point of correct exposure front to back in the scene) with the clipping warning then adjust the aim with an FEC override.

Try it that way. If you don't like it and find it more convenient you can always go back to how you did it previously

Chuck



Nov 09, 2009 at 01:18 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #12 · Noob and a Flash


Mark Peters wrote:
Chuck - Have you tried the 580exII's automatic exposure mode yet? If so, I would be interested in your thoughts.


I don't own a 580exII. I already have two 580ex and a third avaliable when needed and thought most of the changes on the mkII were more for marketing (catering to the "manual is better" Strobist ethic) than functional. So I am sitting that one out hoping for something better in the next model, like one that doesn't switch randomly to TTL mode and fire at full power. I correspond with Chuck Westfall occasionally and have provided suggestions on flash features, but I don't think he has much clout when it comes to design input.

I think both the PC socket, waterproofing and auto mode on the 580exII are classic examples of the marketing department dictating design. How is having flash controlled via a sensor on the flash any different in function than just setting the flash metering in the camera to "Average" mode? Connecting a radio trigger to a 580ex is simply a matter of using an accessory shoe, which is actually better because it also solves the problem of mounting the flash to the stand. Water proofing? How many people use flash in the rain, and why did the convenient "Master/Slave/Off" switch need to be a casualty? The old battery door design on the 580ex had a detent to prevent the batteries from falling out expectedly; canon just failed to provide good instructions for using it: Open it to the detent, then pull downward slightly to open it fully.

I used "auto" Vivitar flashes since the 1970s. They worked OK for single flash use with a 50mm on a 35mm camera with negative film because the sensor on the flash and the 50mm lens captured the same field of view, and negative film has a 2 stop latitude for overexposure. Today with digital and zoom lenses the scene the camera captures may be much different than what a sensor on the camera is metering and exposure tolerances are much tighter because files are exposed for the highlights where even 1/3 stop variance is noticed.

Auto doesn't work with multiple flashes. When flash A sees the light from flash B is will curtain its output. Even in the best case scenario where one flash doesn't see the light from the other the metering in the flash is based on the light reflecting back in the direction of the flash, not what is reaching the camera.

So auto mode on a 580exII is a bit like the tail fins they put on cars in the 1950s - something that makes little functional sense: average TTL mode is the functional equivalent and will yeid better results with zoom lenses. Most of the mkII features seemed based on marketing to counter the trend towards "Stobist" style use of manual flashes with radio triggers and auto flash doesn't even fit that scenario. Its as if the head of Canon marketing handed the head of Canon flash design a Vivitar 285HV and said, "Add all the same features to the new 580exII so people will stop buying these &&%$$ things". I can't recall reading an account anywhere of a 580exII actually using the auto mode and finding it different / better than the TTL metering in average.

Chuck

Nov 09, 2009 at 01:50 PM
Jacob D
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p.2 #13 · Noob and a Flash


cgardner wrote:
Jacob:

FEL allows the flash metering to lock on something a specific distance from the flash. But when using it realize a few things:

1) Any spot meter reading tries to render the spot you measure middle gray. That's the nature of meter calibration. The meter can't know if the spot is dark, light, or in-between, so it provides the exposure settings needed to put what is measured in the middle of the tonal scale in the photo (Zone V in ZS parlance). If the spot measured is lighter or darker than middle gray, then its up to the photographer to INTERPOLATE from the reading to obtain the exposure needed to render the tone correctly. That's a function of the camera's total dynamic range. If the sensor can record 6 stops with detail (about average for most DSRLs) if you spot meter a white dress, you'll need to add 2.5 - 3 stops more exposure to the indicated reading to render it white in the photo. To render a spot metered face correctly in the highlights you'd need to add about 1 - 1.5 stops, depending on the tone of the complexion.

Makes sense, there's really no difference in use of the camera's spot meter.


2) Flash is only correct in the highlights at one distance for any given power level. So lets say you set FEL on a face 16 feet away, and adjust the spot reading +1.5 stops so the highlights are rendered correctly. That will expose the face at 16ft perfectly, but if there are also faces 11ft away they will be over-exposed by 1-stop. Any faces at 8ft will be overexposed by 2 stops. Those at 6ft will be over-exposed by 3 stop. So FEC will provide correct exposure on the spot that is measured (after interpolation) but it will not suspend the laws of physics regarding light propagation.

Should be true whether or not using FEL.


All things considered I think its easier and faster to just use the clipping warning and scene highlights to gauge when flash exposure is correct. Raise FEC to the point where any more flash would cause clipping in what you want correctly exposed. In the scenario above with a person at 16th the warning would tell you closer objects are clipping. That allows you to make a more informed decision to either: 1) shoot as cropped and allow the foreground to be blown out, or; 2) change the camera position or flash strategy to avoid putting anything closer to the flash source than what you want correctly exposed.

What I conclude with Canon metering is that trying to outsmart it is a futile exercise, so when shooting new scene I just let it take its "best shot" at FEC=0 in evaluative and see where it lands (point of correct exposure front to back in the scene) with the clipping warning then adjust the aim with an FEC override.

Try it that way. If you don't like it and find it more convenient you can always go back to how you did it previously

Chuck

I think a lot of what we're talking about here is sort of elementary exposure stuff, which is fine, I went off topic a bit with ETTL vs. Manual. I understand inverse square light fall off. My comments were based on my own experience (or inexperience) with ETTL and some unexpected results (not all the time, just sometimes).

With regard to FEL, I had read that using it would lead to more predictable results. This would make sense given it's a spot meter and if one knows how to use a spot meter properly the results shouldn't be too surprising. When I experimented with it I didn't see any major difference in the results....but it's probably not something that can be compared in any way other than a decreased rate of "random" incorrect flash exposures.

To summarize some points that have been raised by Chuck or me, so I can get them organized in my head, but also for anyone else following along...

1. Canon ETTL with no FEC is generally going to underexpose a scene, it's apparently designed this way to protect highlights (or to provide fill light depending on how you look at it). I think we both agree here.

2. ETTL is smart but not a magic bullet. Scenes with widely varying dynamic range is almost certainly going to require some FEC to obtain the desired exposure. I think we both agree here.

3. ETTL with FEC may occasionally cause incorrect flash exposure. For purpose of this thread, this is just my experience. Most likely it was caused by me making small adjustment in the way I framed the scene causing the metering to change.

4. Using flash exposure lock (FEL) may be useful in getting the exposure correct in any situation where the ETTL system would select some other exposure based on the scene or changes in the scene between shots. FEC will need to be used accordingly unless the FEL target is neutral gray and large enough to cover the majority of the spot meter. I think we both agree here.

5. It is probably not practical to FEL every shot unless you happen to shoot with a 1 series body that can lock the exposure for longer than a single shot (I believe). So this is probably more of an academic exercise than an every day solution. I think we would both agree here.

6. All of the rules of flash exposure apply whether or not the flash is set to ETTL or M. I think we both agree here.

7. A lot of this doesn't matter if you get your flash off camera, unless you're using off camera ETTL... in which case you probably already know what you're doing

Nov 09, 2009 at 06:54 PM
BrianO
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p.2 #14 · Noob and a Flash


mattr762 wrote: I'm wireless right now with my 430ex. You don't need a 550 or 580 to be wireless.

I was refering to wireless ETTL flash using the Canon system. A 430EX won't work for that, because it cannot function as a Master unit.

Obviously there are Pocket Wizards, Radio Poppers, Cyber Commanders, and myriad other ways to go wireless, some of which would work with almost any flash unit up to and including studio strobes, but with varying degrees of compatibility with Canon's ETTL functionality.

Nov 10, 2009 at 12:27 AM
cgardner
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p.2 #15 · Noob and a Flash


Jacob D wrote:

4. Using flash exposure lock (FEL) may be useful in getting the exposure correct in any situation where the ETTL system would select some other exposure based on the scene or changes in the scene between shots. FEC will need to be used accordingly unless the FEL target is neutral gray and large enough to cover the majority of the spot meter. I think we both agree here.


Your last sentence is why I think FEL is waste of time. If its necessary to spot read, take a test shot, then adjust FEC based on the test, its just as simple to take a test shot in evaluative, evaluate it and adjust FEC, skipping the spot reading step.

You understand how FEL and flash in general works, but many don't and seem to think FEL is a magic bullet that will make the entire scene correctly exposed based on where they aim the spot. Like you also said sagely; it will if the spot is gray (and everything else is at the same distance to the flash)


Nov 10, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Jacob D
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p.2 #16 · Noob and a Flash


Yeah, FEL for me is a waste of energy, also on my 5D I can't use it unless I change my button customization back to default... yet another deterrent. I'd be genuinely interested to try it on a 1 series body that can hold the FEL setting for an hour (I think?). The 1 series bodies of course have a dedicated FEL button too.

If the economy is good to me I might invest in a 1d mkIIn, but that's a really BIG might

More than likely "my wife will get" an XSi and 17-40L before that happens.

Nov 10, 2009 at 03:08 AM




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