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Archive 2009 · 5D2 Dynamic Range
  
 
Future Man
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p.2 #1 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Daan B wrote:
dhphoto wrote:
The results have been just great, but I'm not expecting miracles out of the gear. I think some here are. I think David's shot is a great example of what dslr's can do.


I agree

Current DSLR's give great results. Although some do beter than others.

Take a look at this D90 sample. Perfectly exposed for the highlights. Meaning, there is still detail in the stained glass. Since I was in a tomb (US cemetary Normandy), I couldn't use flash.

In PP (LR 2.5) I adjusted the fill light by a whopping +60!!! This is the result:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




I can show you 100% pixel-peeping crops of how good the D90 files held up such a heavy treatment. I wouldn't dream of doing this with my 5D2. There would be banding all over the place


5D2 destroys the D90 in other categories. Different cameras, different strengths and weaknesses. You guys going to keep posting about this or just accept reality?

Nov 05, 2009 at 04:58 PM
Gochugogi
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p.2 #2 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


As I recall color neg film was able to record a vast DR on the actual negative and view it on a light box, but it was impossible to actually print the full range. Print paper just can't do it, so you need to "compress" the range and this usually meant blocking up the shadows. Also, I was never able to scan the full DR from a neg either. Negs were certainly more tolerant of overexposure.

Nov 05, 2009 at 05:00 PM
Daan B
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p.2 #3 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Future Man wrote:
5D2 destroys the D90 in other categories. Different cameras, different strengths and weaknesses. You guys going to keep posting about this or just accept reality?


Sure, different cams with different strengths and weaknesses... But we were discussing DR, right? Just to put everything into perspective, I posted a D90 sample... which blows the 5D2 for these kind of purposes. If you don't like to read it, just move along.

FYI I use a 5D2 with great pleasure for low light event work. I find here it really shines, because of the excellent and very usable ISO1600-6400.

The world isn't a black and white place, you know

Nov 05, 2009 at 05:05 PM
Dawei Ye
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p.2 #4 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Future Man wrote:
I don't get people saying "Why could I push shadows more with the 5D when the 5DII is supposed to be better?"

5DII is a different camera. It has roughly double the MPs, smaller pixel density, better high ISO performance, video capability, etc.

I agree some people are expecting a perfect camera. Maybe we'll have that in 10-15 years, but for now the 5DII is a dream for me.


Where do the excuses stop though? "D3X doesn't count because it's more expensive" "Point and Shoots don't count because they aren't 21MP" "D90 is worse in every other aspect"...excuses can be made indefinitely...

Nov 05, 2009 at 05:06 PM
Future Man
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p.2 #5 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Dawei Ye wrote:
Future Man wrote:
I don't get people saying "Why could I push shadows more with the 5D when the 5DII is supposed to be better?"

5DII is a different camera. It has roughly double the MPs, smaller pixel density, better high ISO performance, video capability, etc.

I agree some people are expecting a perfect camera. Maybe we'll have that in 10-15 years, but for now the 5DII is a dream for me.


Where do the excuses stop though? "D3X doesn't count because it's more expensive" "Point and Shoots don't count because they aren't 21MP" "D90 is worse in every other aspect"...excuses can be made indefinitely...


I wasn't making any excuses. I clearly understand there's a banding issue when pushing the 5DIIs files. No perfect camera. And I don't mean to try and derail the thread, it's an interesting topic, but it's covered ad nauseam on here.

Nov 05, 2009 at 05:10 PM
Mirek Elsner
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p.2 #6 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


I can show you 100% pixel-peeping crops of how good the D90 files held up such a heavy treatment. I wouldn't dream of doing this with my 5D2. There would be banding all over the place

I see banding if I tamper with exposure at very high ISO. But Fill Light does not cause banding on my raws. Just tested it with ISO 1000, moved the slider to 100%. No banding at all and the noise is very good. That is at 21MP:



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Nov 05, 2009 at 07:57 PM
Daan B
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p.2 #7 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Mirek Elsner wrote:
I see banding if I tamper with exposure at very high ISO. But Fill Light does not cause banding on my raws. Just tested it with ISO 1000, moved the slider to 100%. No banding at all and the noise is very good. That is at 21MP:


5D2, ISO1600, fill light +100:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




I don't get this type of banding in every situation. I get good results like in your sample pic. But it seems the banding is primarily situated in the red channel. Try to do similair fill light adjustments against a dark/underexposed (containing red) background and then see what happens.

Nov 05, 2009 at 08:10 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #8 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


A simple way to determine your camera DR is to shoot a gray card, bracketing exposure to make it a range of tone from near white to the point where detail disappears into the noise. I did it with my 20D a few years ago and got this result:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




The card filled the viewfinder and as I stopped down the lens from 2.8 the histogram spike from the card indicated by the red lines moved left. The tone the card was reproduced at and the RGB readings are shown. Conclusion? The camera/lens combo can resolve detail in a range of about 6 stops.

I did B&W zone system work and metered scenes with a 1-degree spot meter. An average flat-lit scene is 10 stops. Cross-lighting will increase the range to around 12, snow or sand even more. Overcast lighting conditions will reduce the range. The way the ZS works is that the zones are tonal values on the print. Negative development is varied to fit various scene ranges onto a single paper grade by making the highlight-shadow density range the same.

Color Print paper can record a scene range of about 5 stops with detail. The latitude of the negative is about 2 stops greater, which is why Granny's Instamatic worked: color negatives overexposed by 2 stops can still make good prints. DR for digital is a bit longer than color negative. It is much longer than transparency film.

The bottom line is any scene over 6-7 stops either needs to be exposed "perceptutally" to make what is most important in the midtones look good at the expense of detail in the highlights and shadows, or have the range adjusted with flash. The way to reduce the range of a scene with flash is to shoot into the shadow side of the ambient and then lift the shadow side independently. Flash can't reduce contrast if it hits sunny highlights and shaded areas at the same time.

YMMV, but I keep a 580ex flash on my camera on a bracket at all times outdoors and use it whenever the range exceeds the sensor. That is very easy to determine:

1) FIrst set exposure using the overexposure warning to keep all non-specular highlights below clipping.

2) Then look at the left side of the histogram. If its piled up on the left and dipping on your foot the range exceeds the sensor and its time to shoot into the shadows and add flash to reduce the scene range, or find less contrast lighting conditions (e.g. open shade).

Indoors situations like a bride and groom next to each other will exceed the range of the camera when one flash is used. Moving a single flash off axis creates shadows which increases the scene range. In that situation the solution is using two flashes in an overlapping key over fill arrangement.

1) Add fill until the darkest detail is recorded

2) Overlap the key light on top of fill to create the highlights until the brightest ones are just below clipping.

Since most people add key light then fill they don't grasp that the contrast is reduced by the fact the key light is actually overlapping the fill. It was easy for me to grasp because I learned flash using two of them in a key over neutral fill arrangement: fill on a flash bracket, key off axis.

Chuck

Nov 05, 2009 at 09:30 PM
jamie123
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p.2 #9 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


I don't have the patience to read the whole thread but I get the impression that it's mostly people who have never seriously used film and only know the crappy lab prints they used to get for vacation photos.

I've been shooting medium format film for a long time and have just recently got into digital with a 5DII. As much as I love the Canon, I'm not getting rid of the film stuff as there's some situations where the Canon is not match for portra 160nc color print film
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky. Mind you, I scan the film on a high end scanner and then process in PS so I'm talking about negative film as a simple raw source for a digital image, not bw film with zone system and darkroom techniques.

As far as the sampe pic from the OP goes, I don't have any comparison shots by myself but look at this photo by Alec Soth: http://www.alecsoth.com/Bogota/pages/Bogota48.html

By the way, I don't know if this has been noted already but IMO the photo by the OP is not really taken in an "extreme" situation. Shooting the moon and clounds is not that tricky even with a fairly cheap digital compact.


Nov 05, 2009 at 10:31 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #10 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


As mentioned color negative film has a longer range (straight line section in the DlogE plot) that the print paper, so you are likely getting much more range out of the scan on a high-end photomultiplier scanner than you would on a color print.

Nov 05, 2009 at 10:38 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #11 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.

Nov 05, 2009 at 10:41 PM
jamie123
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p.2 #12 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Of course, and the same goes for all other slide films.

Nov 05, 2009 at 11:16 PM
chez
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p.2 #13 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Yes, that is the limitation of chrome film. Try it using NPS160 and you'll get a total different result.


Nov 05, 2009 at 11:47 PM
 



RDKirk
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p.2 #14 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Of course, and the same goes for all other slide films.


Then how about when we compare digital with film, we keep it straight.


Nov 06, 2009 at 12:56 AM
jamie123
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p.2 #15 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


RDKirk wrote:
jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Of course, and the same goes for all other slide films.


Then how about when we compare digital with film, we keep it straight.


What's your point?? I was comparing the 5DII's DR to slow/medium speed medium format color print film. I have no idea why you're bringing up slide film?? It was a comparison between a specific digital camera with a very specific type of film specifically regarding the aspect of DR.

Nov 06, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Beni
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p.2 #16 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


I'd agree with that, a comparison to slide film only works if you treat the DSLR as a jpg only camera. You cannot discount the highlight shoulder of neg film, especially for wedding work. That said, having the right software can make all the difference to the 'digital' look. I was teaching myself C1 a month or so ago, did a side by side with a wedding shot, C1 straight out of the software, ACR with all my custom profiles and default settings that I worked on for years. Put them side by side on the screen. My wife walked past at that point, glances at the screen, points at the C1 shot and says 'that looks like the Fuji film that you used to shoot weddings with years ago(NPS/H)'. She isn't a photographer by any means. I just wish C1 had dodge and burn and a better highlight recovery (better implemented but not anywhere near as powerful as ACR/LS)...

Nov 06, 2009 at 12:02 PM
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p.2 #17 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Beni wrote:
I'd agree with that, a comparison to slide film only works if you treat the DSLR as a jpg only camera. You cannot discount the highlight shoulder of neg film, especially for wedding work.


Overexposing to the point the highlights are pushed into the shoulder of the DlogE response curve will work in B&W to compress tone in the highlights but on color negatives it will cause the gray balance to shift because the response of the different color layers are not balanced on the shoulder as they are on the linear part of the response curve.

Nov 06, 2009 at 01:26 PM
jamie123
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p.2 #18 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


cgardner wrote:
Beni wrote:
I'd agree with that, a comparison to slide film only works if you treat the DSLR as a jpg only camera. You cannot discount the highlight shoulder of neg film, especially for wedding work.


Overexposing to the point the highlights are pushed into the shoulder of the DlogE response curve will work in B&W to compress tone in the highlights but on color negatives it will cause the gray balance to shift because the response of the different color layers are not balanced on the shoulder as they are on the linear part of the response curve.



Bit of a moot point when you're scanning negs as you have to custom set color balance anyways.

Nov 06, 2009 at 02:00 PM
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p.2 #19 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


The two biggest variables in exposure and contrast are scene lighting and content. Here's an example from a high speed flash test I did.

As a baseline I started with a test target facing the sun, ambient only:


This image is copyrighted by the owner



The criteria for exposure was keeping the white towel (i.e. textured highlights) below clipping. Here's the same target with the same light hitting from the other direction, exposed exactly the same way: to retain the highlght detail.


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Both are exposed the same way and "technically correct" in the sense of preserving highlight detail, but look radically different "perceptually" due to the way the content is presented in the photo. To a great extent what we perceive is driven not by what the eyes record, but rather by what the brain expects. Your brain know the towel should be white and if you've ever used a gray card you have a reasonable expectation of what it should look like. The first image where those "reference tones" are prominent and well exposed create the impression the entire scene is well exposed when in fact the shadows cast on the card in the first shot are similar to those on the shaded side of the card in the second.

The basic cause and effect of photography is using contrast patterns to attract the eye and create the illusion of 3D. The angle of the dominant "key" light creates the highlights and shadows which the brain uses to intuit shape, and the amount of detail in the shadows created by the fill source (whatever it is) provide additional clues about shape and texture. Over the history of photography its practitioners learned how to cope with scene contrast and use that contrast to their advantage.

The earliest photographers used orthochromatic films that could be developed under red safe lights. That allowed them to develop the negatives by eye to fit any scene to the range of the print paper. Adams, who started using ortho film, quantified that "seat of the pants / eyeball" method into the Zone System which allowed doing the same the same thing --adjust development of the negative to fit the paper -- in the total darkness needed for developing panchromatic films. The other method used for B&W was to change paper grades to fit the range of the negative would would vary due to scene range and development time.

Either way photographers of the B&W era didn't need to be concern much with film vs scene range because the underlying technology took care of matching both. Get the two end points - max black from clear areas of the neg, and pure white by matching neg. range to the paper range -- and all the tones in between fell normally both technically and perceptually because most of the photographic response curve is linear. In simpler terms if you shot a gray scale on B&W film it could be reproduced to look exactly the same.

Color negative changed the photographic paradigm two ways. The range of color print paper is shorter than that of B&W (5 f/stops vs 10-12) and color negatives have little latitude for processing variation because all the color recording layers must stay in sync to record neutral tones accurately (i.e. gray balance).

The movie industry had long been faced with the problem of keeping contrast consistent on the negatives over a wide range of scene contrast and pioneered the use of artificial lighting to alter scene range. The move to color in movies, with its much shorter dynamic range, is one of the reasons movie making moved in-doors: it was easier and cheaper to build an outdoor set indoors and control the lighting contrast with artificial lighting than it was trying to battle the contrast of natural light outdoors with "fill" light.

Still photographers found the direct fresnel sources they had used for portraits with B&W film where too harsh on the short range, more contrasty color film. Middle gray (18% reflectance) is 4 stops from the highlights on B&W film but only 2 stops from the highlights in color. That meant rethinking lighting ratios, which are based on f/stop differences between the highlight and shadow sides of a face [ i.e. 2:1 means 2x more light (1 f/stop) more light reflects from the highlights]. The change in contrast of the film lead to the use of more diffuse light sources such as dishes and umbrellas.

Changes in printing reproduction methods, namely the use of drum scanners for color separation, created another paradigm shift to transparencies. From a strictly photographic perspective color negative is better in many ways because it has greater range and latitude for exposure variation. But scanning from a transparency resulted in much better resolution because it eliminated the variable of optical resolution. I know this first-hand because back in the mid-1970s I worked at National Geographic making halftones and color separations manually using reflective / camera techniques and later worked at and managed operations which used first generation analog and digital scanners. Advertising is the economic engine that drives publishing and prior to the Internet color magazines were primary form of advertising using still photography. So the shift to transparencies wasn't made because it was a better way to capture photographic images but because it was a better way to reproduce them.

Back in the days of transparencies a collection of color correcting filters was to photography what a chef's knives are to cuisine: the mark of a professional photographer was his filter case and knowledge in using them to get the image right in the camera. Metering of both exposure and color temperature needed to be spot on because all the stuff now done in Photoshop was done manually. If there were 300 photos in a catalog they all needed to be as identical technically out of the camera. Just as the shift to B&W negative lead to changes in studio lighting the shift to transparencies with an even shorter dynamic range spawn a new generation of larger, more diffuse light modifiers.

Color catalog pages with multiple images were created on a light table by duplicating the original transparency in an enlarger to the size needed on the page on a special type of duplicate transparency film which allowed the image layers to be peeled up from the base. A layout technician working on a light table would strip each image from the dupe and re-paste it in position on a page-sized sheet of mylar. That saved time and money at the scanning stage and make it easier to get all the images to match.

Meanwhile outdoors still photographers were faced with the same light with ranges of 8 - 12 or more stops of contrast. To cope with that contrast new strategies were developed. Photographers realizing that they couldn't capture detail everywhere started exposing "perceptually" to make whatever was most important, usually the faces, correctly exposed. "Damage Control", preventing the fact the highlights and shadows were being blow, was a matter of composing the photo so those areas were not important to the message of the photo. That's what the illustration I started with illustrates. The same lighting contrast will be perceived differently depending on what the brain expects to see. In the second wide shot the brain expects the background to look normal and had it been exposed that way the fact the towel was totally blown out wouldn't be noticed or thought to be odd.

The other strategy photographers learned to use outdoors is "fill" flash. The flash falls off with distance and can only correctly exposed highlights at one distance. So in most situations it can't change the contrast range of the entire scene. But perceptually the brain focuses more on the foreground and tunes out the background when doing so in real life, and the same thing will work in a photo outdoors:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Starting by keeping the white highlights below clipping with shutter speed (- 2 EC in Av mode) I then reached up, turned on my 580ex flash set to FEC = 0 and let the camera's evaluative flash metering sort things out.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




The shot at FEC =0 actually looks a bit overfilled perceptually, but mostly because of the contrast with the dark background which is larger. The brain still wants that background to look normal also. The shot above where I measured only the card area histogram shows it reproduces the range of the card almost perfectly in the technical sense. If I were to take that wide shot and crop in tight on the card it would look "normal" as I expanded the crop the darker background would show and actually work in a positive way to frame and pull attention to the card. But at some point where the card occupies less area in the photo than the background, or is moved out of the center of the frame the perceptual focal point will become the background and the card will start to look overexposed RELATIVE TO THE BACKGROUND and the the background underexposed.

A perceptual quirk of fill flash is that when flash exactly matches the ambient light it looks fake. Why? Because in real life we perceive a difference between the sunny back side and the sky filled shady side. The difference between what the eyes see and the camera without flash records is due to the face the eyes adapt to whatever the brain tells them to focus on. So if looking at that scene in person when you focus on the shaded card or face in shadow the lighting doesn't change, the brain tells the pupils to dilate more so the detail can be seen. The background in person would be nearly as overexposed as in a photo taken for a correctly exposed face but the in person the brain just tunes it out so its not noticed.

So photographers making the transition from B&W to color neg to transparency learned from experience that flash works best outdoors in photos with prominent foreground detail.


This image is copyrighted by the owner





This image is copyrighted by the owner





This image is copyrighted by the owner




They also learned flash can only reduce the foreground contrast when the camera shoots into the shadows. Hence the convention of putting the back of a subject to the sun in direct sunlight which allows the flash to lift the shadow side without overlapping and blowing any significant sunlit areas in the foreground.

When a single flash is added to the shaded foreground it really isn't fill. Fill by definition raises the shadows. What a single flash does outdoors is create a highlight pattern over the fill light from the sky that is already there:



This image is copyrighted by the owner



Blur the shot and the highlight pattern created by the flash is easier to see:


This image is copyrighted by the owner



The shadows are still illuminated only by the sky and in that shot by the light reflecting up off the light shirt.

Perceptually the single flash works well in a full face pose IF it is raised above the camera to create a natural highlight pattern on the face. Natural light comes from above and so should the "key" light, which is the role the flash is playing. The shadows are actually quite dark, but OK perceptually because the face is mostly in highlight and the shadows work well to frame and slim the face.

But in an oblique pose in the same lighting conditions more of the side of the face would show and trigger a perception the lighting is too harsh. Dark shadows = perception of hardness. Light shadows = perception of softness. So outdoors with oblique poses I employ the same dual flash short lighting strategy I do indoors using fill over the camera to lift the facial shadows to the tonal level I desire, and overlapping the key light to control the contrast on the face:



This image is copyrighted by the owner




You'll notice how distracting the control target is in the shot above? Again that shows the role of perception. Black out the card and the perception of the face changes....



This image is copyrighted by the owner




Because the face is now the brightest, most strongly contrasting area in the photo. In both examples the face is lit in a way that creates a highlight "mask" on the front of the face the brain will immediately recognize as a face..



This image is copyrighted by the owner




In the case of the shot with the white shirt I picked the background of the sunlit river so the shirt wouldn't do what the card did on the dark background - distract. I understand the role of contrast and perception and use contrasting tone and focus it to lead the eye of the viewer where I want them to go in the photo, and more importantly keep their attention focused there...



This image is copyrighted by the owner




The message here is that perception of the final image in the mind of the viewer, not capturing every scintilla of shadow detail is what should drive the creative process. Ansel Adams system was based on pre-visualization of the outcome and getting past the technical limitations of the recording process. I learned the zone system shortly after starting photography in the late 1960s so I carried the same "ethic" into shooting on color negative, transparencies, and digital. The technical processes have changed, but its still pre-visualization of what is possible holistically which changes scenes seen by eye and recorded "accurately" like this:



This image is copyrighted by the owner



Into finished images like this:


This image is copyrighted by the owner





This image is copyrighted by the owner





This image is copyrighted by the owner





This image is copyrighted by the owner




Chuck
















Nov 06, 2009 at 04:12 PM
jerrykur
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p.2 #20 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Chuck,

Very useful information. It shows why you want to keep a flash or two (which you know how to use) around even when doing "natural light" photography.

Jerry


Nov 06, 2009 at 04:39 PM
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p.2 #21 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Of course, and the same goes for all other slide films.


Then how about when we compare digital with film, we keep it straight.


What's your point?? I was comparing the 5DII's DR to slow/medium speed medium format color print film. I have no idea why you're bringing up slide film?? It was a comparison between a specific digital camera with a very specific type of film specifically regarding the aspect of DR.


You said: "With film...."

You did not at all distinguish in your post "slow/medium speed medium format color print film."

That is not a valid comparison with a 24x36mm DSLR--you should be making that comparison with a medium format digital camera--and you certainly should be specifying your terms.


Nov 06, 2009 at 05:10 PM
jamie123
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p.2 #22 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


RDKirk wrote:
jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
jamie123 wrote:
RDKirk wrote:
With film I can shoot a strongly backlit subject on a sunny day right into the sun and (by simply exposing for the shadows) get a beautiful soft blue color and gradation in the sky. Do the same thing with digital and you get a clear white, blown out sky.

If you exposed that scene for the shadows with Kodachrome, you'd have gotten a clear white, blown out sky, too.


Of course, and the same goes for all other slide films.


Then how about when we compare digital with film, we keep it straight.


What's your point?? I was comparing the 5DII's DR to slow/medium speed medium format color print film. I have no idea why you're bringing up slide film?? It was a comparison between a specific digital camera with a very specific type of film specifically regarding the aspect of DR.


You said: "With film...."

You did not at all distinguish in your post "slow/medium speed medium format color print film."

That is not a valid comparison with a 24x36mm DSLR--you should be making that comparison with a medium format digital camera--and you certainly should be specifying your terms.


I did quote Kodak Portra 160nc print film specifically and later stated that I'm talking about negative film (different term for print film) as a raw source for a digital image. I don't know how I could've specified this any clearer?

And no, I should not be making the comparison with a medium format digital camera as this thread is about the 5DII's DR (btw, my MF film camera is smaller than the 5DII with lens).

This really is not about film vs. digital per se but I just find it funny when I read that a bunch of digital guys who have no serious experience with film talking about how much their newest dslr kicks film's ass. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love the 5DII as it's much more convenient than my film equipment in many regards and even "better" in some regards. However, there are still areas where it's just easier to use film and the results are better.

Nov 06, 2009 at 06:51 PM
Disko80
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p.2 #23 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


Great camera
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Nov 07, 2009 at 12:43 AM
David Baldwin
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p.2 #24 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


jamie123

The image you link to was taken just after sunset with a partially lit moon (which isn't as bright). The scene is so light that the sky is still bright. In my book to be honest it isn't even a night photo. There are no extreme contrasts at all.

On the other hand the shot I posted was in the black of night, looking at the moon which is of course being lit directly by the sun. Not only did the 5D2 deal with the black clouds and the nearly full moon, it also recorded incredibly subtle colours in the clouds, colour nuances that I bet most casual observers of the moon have never noticed. Thats extreme.

No comparision at all. In relation to getting such results with a compact, please try and post your results here. I don't believe it, but I'll eat my hat if you can produce similar results with a compact. I will also buy the compact!

Nov 07, 2009 at 05:03 PM
jamie123
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p.2 #25 · 5D2 Dynamic Range


David Baldwin wrote:
jamie123

The image you link to was taken just after sunset with a partially lit moon (which isn't as bright). The scene is so light that the sky is still bright. In my book to be honest it isn't even a night photo. There are no extreme contrasts at all.

On the other hand the shot I posted was in the black of night, looking at the moon which is of course being lit directly by the sun. Not only did the 5D2 deal with the black clouds and the nearly full moon, it also recorded incredibly subtle colours in the clouds, colour nuances that I bet most casual observers of the moon have never noticed. Thats extreme.

No comparision at all. In relation to getting such results with a compact, please try and post your results here. I don't believe it, but I'll eat my hat if you can produce similar results with a compact. I will also buy the compact!


Agreed, the shot I linked to was not the best example but I actually think there's more DR in that shot than in yours with the difference that the shot seems to be printed with less contrast.

The point I tried to make is that your moon shot is not that extreme as far as DR is concerned. You have the moon whch is bright (but nowhere near as bright as the sun) and some clounds that are directly illuminated by the moon. Also, you have a slightly blown out area in the center of the frame.
So what does this photo show? The 5DII's capability to pick up subtle shadow details? Sure. A dynamic range that surpasses what's possible with negative film? Not really.

Like I said, with negative film I can take a portrait of a person with the sun in the back and still get good exposure for the face and subtle gradation in the sky. That's what I call DR.

But really, I'm done arguing over this as it's a bit silly. I just felt like I needed to say something as the misconception about what's possible with film seems to be wide spread around this forum.

Nov 07, 2009 at 06:53 PM




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