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dmacmillan
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p.2 #1 · Venting...


cgardner wrote:
The bigger part of the picture you are not getting here is: That approach obviously didn't work!

Please tell us what approach worked for you when you were booking weddings.

Nov 04, 2009 at 06:57 PM
Stephaniespix
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p.2 #2 · Venting...


Hi Michele,
Sorry you had to listen to yelling, I too would have a hard time dealing with it, but on the bright side, you escaped from booking a PITA.

Stephanie

Nov 04, 2009 at 07:26 PM
CarminaF
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p.2 #3 · Venting...


jeremy_clay wrote:
I'm not sure if you've dealt with this situation specifically, or shoot weddings, etc - however, please note that MANY customers will take "..hey! I've got an inquiry for your date! Let me knowwwwwwwwww...!" as a straight sales technique and actually be put off by it as desperate - regardless of wording/etc.



+1

Nov 04, 2009 at 07:41 PM
Lumen01
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p.2 #4 · Venting...


Perhaps you could send a follow up email just reiterating your sincere apologies (Even though you did nothing wrong) and give her some recommendations to some other photographers in the area you respect.

Just a thought

Evan

PS sorry that happened, it's never acceptable to yell at people.


Nov 04, 2009 at 07:46 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #5 · Venting...


Mike Mahoney wrote:
cgardner wrote:
If someone else calls and wants the same date within the window you tell them, "I already have pending inquiry on that date, and will know (tomorrow / next day) whether it will be open. Odds are you might loose a few sales one way or another, but by having a more realistic policy (i.e., in line with the customer's expectations and needs) there's less chance of anyone going away mad or upset.


If anyone actually implements such a booking policy they will find themselves on the road to insanity and financial ruin.


+100

Nov 04, 2009 at 07:54 PM
Ryan Britton
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p.2 #6 · Venting...


MichelleL wrote:
Upon followup, I will reiterate the statement again. But beyond that, it's on them to be proactive and move forward if they *really* want me. I meet with lots of clients, some of which want the same date. However, without a contract in place, I'm technically available. It's one thing for a client to say "we want you," but another for them to pull the trigger and get the legal stuff in place. I've been burned by that before in the past and that's the entire reason I now enforce the signed contract/deposit clause.

I'm a firm believer in making a move if you really want something... especially if photography matters to you.

I will not, however, hold a date without a signed contract or deposit, which is essentially what she is upset about.


This, I think, is all you can do. It's the approach that works the majority of the time. Once you're burned by not doing it, as you have been, you learn a healthy respect for it. What people do and what they say are often contradictory, so the safe business decision is to go by the actions — no booking without signed contract and booking fee.

I do not think you could have handled it any better than you did. Without anything binding, you have nothing more than the word of someone you likely met for the first time that day and could very easily never see or hear from again.

Nov 04, 2009 at 07:56 PM
lisy78
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p.2 #7 · Venting...


cgardner wrote:
MichelleL wrote:

...because I repeat AD NAUSEUM my policies in all my correspondence as stated above. It is made 1000% clear what I do and do not do.


The bigger part of the picture you are not getting here is: That approach obviously didn't work!

People don't read the "fine print". That's the point in the TV commercial. They will understand a phone call or message a few days later saying... "Hi, I'm getting other inquires for _______ so I need your deposit by tomorrow to hold the date."

It is also always better to set a firm deadline for any decision. Its not realistic to expect a client to make a commitment on the spot if you are the first photographer they have contacted, but it is realistic to give them a short 2-3 day window to make a decision for an event scheduled months in advance. If someone else calls and wants the same date within the window you tell them, "I already have pending inquiry on that date, and will know (tomorrow / next day) whether it will be open. Odds are you might loose a few sales one way or another, but by having a more realistic policy (i.e., in line with the customer's expectations and needs) there's less chance of anyone going away mad or upset.


cgardner,

No way.

If someone else calls and wants the same date within the window I tell them "where would you like to meet to sign the contract?" If a client wants me to "HOLD" a date for them they can sign a contract and pay the deposit.

End of story.

What is so complicated about that?

It is PERFECTLY realistic for me to expect SOME clients to make up their mind even if I'm the first photographer they contact. Some others won't. If they decide to go with me and the date is available then great, otherwise the world will not come to a crashing end.

Nov 04, 2009 at 07:58 PM
Beni
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p.2 #8 · Venting...


This winter I've had 4 clients 'book' me and then cancel while the quote and contract was in the post to them. I now no longer 'pencil in' or accept a booking until I have that signature and deposit in hand. Period. Fed up of people messing me around. These were all very late bookings as well. I do tell people that if I get another inquiry for that date I'll call them first once I've been asked to pencil in, that usually gets them to get a move on and stop messing around. I won't however close the date until I get the deposit.

Nov 04, 2009 at 08:16 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #9 · Venting...


Beni wrote:
This winter I've had 4 clients 'book' me and then cancel while the quote and contract was in the post to them. I now no longer 'pencil in' or accept a booking until I have that signature and deposit in hand. Period. Fed up of people messing me around. These were all very late bookings as well. I do tell people that if I get another inquiry for that date I'll call them first once I've been asked to pencil in, that usually gets them to get a move on and stop messing around. I won't however close the date until I get the deposit.



That's the difference in reading about a photography business and actually running one - much like shooting itself, theory is great...in theory. In practice, things are never so straight forward.

Nov 04, 2009 at 08:18 PM
Mattbtn
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p.2 #10 · Venting...


jeremy_clay wrote:
Mike Mahoney wrote:
cgardner wrote:
If someone else calls and wants the same date within the window you tell them, "I already have pending inquiry on that date, and will know (tomorrow / next day) whether it will be open. Odds are you might loose a few sales one way or another, but by having a more realistic policy (i.e., in line with the customer's expectations and needs) there's less chance of anyone going away mad or upset.


If anyone actually implements such a booking policy they will find themselves on the road to insanity and financial ruin.


+100


+101 The odds are more likely that you will GAIN additional sales by not giving in and waiting for people who are on the fence.

Nov 04, 2009 at 08:30 PM
hashbaz
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p.2 #11 · Venting...


MichelleL,

I'm not a pro photog or anything, but I think you did everything right, and I would suggest that you don't change how you do anything. As a customer, I don't like feeling pushed/pressured. Getting an email or letter saying "send money now, or I might give your date to someone else" would put me off (even if the letter was worded kindly).

Nov 04, 2009 at 08:35 PM
dmacmillan
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p.2 #12 · Venting...


jeremy_clay wrote:
That's the difference in reading about a photography business and actually running one - much like shooting itself, theory is great...in theory. In practice, things are never so straight forward.

Imagine that! It's like getting dating advice from a nun.

Nov 04, 2009 at 08:48 PM
MichelleL
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p.2 #13 · Venting...


@hashbaz: Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it.

I've tried the "you need to commit or someone else will get your date" route (of course, worded much more nicely than that!) and it almost always backfired. Folks felt pressured. I'm not about the high pressure sales pitch whatsoever. I wouldn't respond well to it either if I were in their shoes. Then again, the photography would be #1 on my list of priorities (of course, I'm biased), and I'd book the photog FIRST before anything else.

I feel that people should want to hire me based on my work, and should feel comfortable sharing one of the most personal days of their lives with me. Pushing them along to make a decision just isn't my style, and I don't want to work that way. I consider myself an artist, not a factory. It has to be organic or it won't work (for me, anyway). If they're on the fence and they decide on me and the date's still open, fantastic. If they don't, that's fine too. They just need to know that if they are SURE they want me, they need to put it in writing on the contract and in the ol' checkbook.

I inform clients up front about the policies, and if they want me, they book me. If they don't, they move on. Every once in a while, though, you get one or two that make you nuts. This is just one of those cases.

Thanks everybody for listening and for all the good advice. I have learned SO much through the folks here at FM. Much appreciated, and best of luck to everyone still slugging along through their season. Mine thankfully wraps this weekend. Oh, thank heaven. Saturdays to myself again! Whod'a thunk?!

Nov 04, 2009 at 09:10 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #14 · Venting...


jeremy_clay wrote:

Chuck,

I'm not sure if you've dealt with this situation specifically, or shoot weddings, etc - however, please note that MANY customers will take "..hey! I've got an inquiry for your date! Let me knowwwwwwwwww...!" as a straight sales technique and actually be put off by it as desperate - regardless of wording/etc.


I did shoot high end weddings for several years and have had a hand directly and indirectly running customer service for printing operations for the past 35 years. Last year the one I currently help run billed $320 million. How does that compare with your gross last year?

At any point in time we have 200-300 jobs in the works and the key to meeting the deadlines is good scheduling and clear communication. Over the years I've created all the scheduling and tracking systems and formulated much of the underlying policies and procedures for the operations I've managed. My philosophy of seeing problems as potential solutions are the basis for many of those procedures. When something doesn't work, we try to find out why and fix it. I'm indebted to my Filipino colleagues for that. As Production Manager of the USIA printing plant in Manila the early 1980s I found the local staff very reluctant to bring problems to light because in the past they'd get blamed. Filipinos put a huge amount of value on smooth interpersonal relationships - saving face - and its a huge insult to criticize someone publicly. So to put a good spin on things when someone said "Sir, we have a problem." I'd reply, "There are no problems, only opportunities to do it better next time!" Thats when the real problems started surfacing and getting fixed. That all I'm suggesting here; fix the real problem.

When customers get disappointed and PO'ed it is usually because they have unrealistic expectations about the outcome: delivery date or quality. To avoid that we give the customer proofs to approve and deadlines for every action expected of them needed to meet the delivery deadline: submitting materials, approving proofs, etc. We also jump through hoops of fire to deliver the job when things fall behind.

Back in the late 70s before the USIA job I was Customer Service Production Manager for a large web printer in Washington, DC. We scheduled our presses months in advance. On one occasion one of our customers, Yankee Magazine, fell a few days behind and was going to miss their press slot. The same publisher produced the Old Farmers Almanac. Back in those days we normally would courier a proof to the editor in Manchester, NH with a three day turn-around. To allow the customer to meet their press deadline I got on a plane, flew to LaGuardia, changed planes to New England Air and flew to Manchester where I rented a car then drove like a manic to the Yankee office to get the OK from the Judd Hale, the editor. I had to catch the same plane on its return hop from the next stop or be stranded in NH for the night so I drove back to the airport even faster and ran out to plane I'd left about an hour earlier as they were puling up the stairs to depart. The flight attendant, recognizing me, dead panned, "What, you don't like New Hampshire?".

So yes Virginia, I do know what customer service is all about. Sure we could have said, "Sorry Judd you missed your scheduled press slot, the next opening is in two weeks." but that wouldn't have engendered very much Good Will would it?

That's why in light of my personal experience in customer service I don't see picking up a phone and following up before selling a wedding slot someone else who inquired about as being unreasonable business practice or that great of a burden. If it its then perhaps the OP should get some help managing that aspect of the business as she suggested.

Let's put the emotions aside and deal with the facts.

For one reason or another this potential client didn't get the message about there being a deadline for making a decision. It really doesn't matter if it was tattooed on her forehead, she didn't get the message THERE WAS A DEADLINE. Had she called and the date been available she might have been all sweetness and light. The fact she went ballistic was at least in part due to the fact the day she thought was still open was given to someone else.

I see the root of the problem as being the lack of a mutually agreed upon deadline for making a decision. Instead it appears seems there was an open-ended "we need a deposit to reserve the date" message given. Was the customer made to understand she couldn't wait three weeks to make a decision? Lets say someone else showed up the very next day and wanted the same date and was ready to write the check. Should it be booked without the courtesy of giving the person who inquired the day before right of first refusal? How about two days later. Three? Where do you draw the line? How does the potential customer know where the line is?

We aren't selling sacks of potatoes under a blue light special to the first person who shows you the money we are trying to sell an image as a professional.

If you go to buy a house and there's already a contract pending, but you really want the house, what do you do? Wait to see if the pending contract goes through. That's the norm for many professional transactions, so its not unrealistic for the second couple to wait a day or so. If they aren't willing to do that then more than likely they are just shopping price, not looking for the intangible value your exquisite artistry adds to the equation. If you are good, they will take a number and get in line. I learned the wedding business from a guy that would have brides change their wedding dates to fit his schedule. When you are that good people will stand in line and wait If you have the "problem" of several people inquiring about the same date your dance card will be filled one way or the other, so why employ a business practice which obviously has led to a misunderstanding in this case and pissed off a potential client. Why not find a way to fix the problem so doesn't happen again instead of just whining about it and looking for a shoulder to cry on?

Some might see a follow-up call as pushy, but the bride contacted the photographer in the first place. Assuming there was some reasonable deadline for a decision as the standard policy, it would simply be a courtesy reminder that the deadline was near, or that someone else in fact wanted the date and was prepared to give a deposit when the deadline expired. If there weren't any other inquiries and the first bride was still interested but not ready to commit to a date because some other part of the wedding wasn't nailed down yet then the deadline could be extended and there would be an other opportunity to make contact a few days or week hence.

Ever heard of Alien Bees? Opinions vary about the equipment and its owner, but there is universal acclaim for its customer service. There are a couple lessons there.

I suspect if Paul Buff was running the customer service desk the company would have lasted about a month before some irate customer he pissed off burned the place down. But Paul is smart enough to know customer service is not his strong suit and how to set good policy and find people with the right temperament to man the phones do it on the first ring with a smile. I'm much the same way. I'd rather chew nails than do sales or customer service, which I why I would never dream of running my own photography business. But having help run large businesses I know the value of good customer service to the survival of any enterprise, and the value of Good Will.

The customer isn't always right, but you always want them to leave with a smile and come back with their friends.




Nov 05, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Pandacat
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p.2 #15 · Venting...


Chuck, while some of your points are well taken, you seem to miss the most important point of all.... you can't change the calender. Michelle can't hop on a plane or take a cab to meet with someone who missed a time slot to get their proofs in on time. You are delivering a product within a specific time frame. Michelle is booking a specific day. She can't book two events on the same day. You can deliver two products on the same day. Printing pictures is not the same concept as shooting those pictures. You can have 300 presses printing 300 pictures but she can only click one camera at a time.

I'm a Real Estate Broker. Been in the business for over twenty-five years. Your anology of buying a house doesn't fit well either. I tell people "If you really want this house, you need to sign the contract." When they say "We need to think it over" and leave, that's fine with me. But when they call back a couple days later and tell me they are ready to make the offer and I have to tell them "There's another offer on the table,.. your's can be a back-up contract." Well, let's just say I've heard lots of comments coming over the phone that weren't learned in Sunday School. But you know what? TOUGH!! I told you so. And you didn't listen. And now somebody else has taken your place. You have only yourself to blame for dragging your feet.

Michelle, just remember... The customer is always right.. except when they are wrong.






Nov 05, 2009 at 01:55 AM
cgardner
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p.2 #16 · Venting...


The point isn't booking two weddings on the same day but how to treat two potential customers for that date equitably and avoid one of them going nuclear.

If her preferred business practice is "money talks, everyone else walks" that's fine as long as that's clear to the potential customer. That apparently wasn't the case here. Net result is a bride who happy and another who is pissed off and will likely bad mouth her. That's not what I call a win-win situation.

How can she prevent that in the future? She probably can't unless she is willing to risk occasionally not booking the date. The extent of the risk would depend on the demand for her services and how far she schedules in advance. Back when I was shooting weddings we called the occasional weekend without a wedding booked a vacation

The intangible question is whether over the long haul she will book fewer dates if there are pissed off brides running around town bad mouthing her. It is after all a word of mouth business and "good will" is an intangible asset

Nov 05, 2009 at 02:57 AM
Jeff Langevin
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p.2 #17 · Venting...


@cgardner OP stated that the customer was specifically told the policy. People hear what they want to. I don't think this is an issue of bad customer service. I think this is an issue of bad *customer*. This person doesn't like an outcome that clearly could have been avoided by putting a deposit down. The only thing that would have alleviated this situation is if the date had still been open which isn't a realistic expectation.

Nov 05, 2009 at 04:08 AM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #18 · Venting...


cgardner wrote:

I did shoot high end weddings for several years


Pics please. Towel-less preferred.


cgardner wrote:
and have had a hand directly and indirectly running customer service for printing operations for the past 35 years. Last year the one I currently help run billed $320 million. How does that compare with your gross last year?


God, I can tell you're p*ssed when you start comparing my self-run business gross to the gross of a large corporation you assisted in customer service with. I can just see you getting steamed reading all of the people disagreeing with your post.




This image is copyrighted by the owner




"..but there's SO MANY WORDS!"



Nov 05, 2009 at 04:18 AM
dmacmillan
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p.2 #19 · Venting...


I'm so proud of my son. While still in high school, he helped run a company that did 3.2 billion in sales! It's called Chik-Fil-A. He was a junior manager.

Nov 05, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Kittyk
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p.2 #20 · Venting...


Mike Mahoney wrote:
cgardner wrote:
If someone else calls and wants the same date within the window you tell them, "I already have pending inquiry on that date, and will know (tomorrow / next day) whether it will be open. Odds are you might loose a few sales one way or another, but by having a more realistic policy (i.e., in line with the customer's expectations and needs) there's less chance of anyone going away mad or upset.


If anyone actually implements such a booking policy they will find themselves on the road to insanity and financial ruin.


+1


Nov 05, 2009 at 12:43 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.2 #21 · Venting...


WHOA!!

Just checked back to this thread. The girl just needed to vent.... wasn't looking for advice or correction, just venting, like the title says. People need to chill...

Think about what happens when your spouse says they need to vent and you try to correct them. Bad times.

Nov 05, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #22 · Venting...


A telephone message you will never hear:

"Bob, this is Hank down at Mainway Ford calling about that Explorer you took for a quick test drive last Saturday. Just wanted to let you know that another guy is here looking at the same vehicle, and wants to pay cash for the car right now!

I'm only calling you because I know how much your girlfriend liked the roomy back seat, and I wouldn't want her to go around bad-mouthing me because I sold it to somebody else. So I'll tell this guy with the cash to just cool his heels for a few days while we wait for you to make up your mind. Call me when you get a chance"


Nov 05, 2009 at 12:53 PM
cgardner
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p.2 #23 · Venting...


jeremy_clay wrote:

cgardner wrote:
and have had a hand directly and indirectly running customer service for printing operations for the past 35 years. Last year the one I currently help run billed $320 million. How does that compare with your gross last year?


God, I can tell you're p*ssed when you start comparing my self-run business gross to the gross of a large corporation you assisted in customer service with. I can just see you getting steamed reading all of the people disagreeing with your post.


Actually its part of a government not a corporation. The part of it I run nowadays are all systems I build to track the jobs and count all that money. I do it on a consultant basis now two days a week, but that still probably grosses more than your business.

I've worked for mom and pop operations too and by comparison most have been abysmal at things like customer service because: 1) they are limited by the skills of the owner, and 2) don't see the bigger picture on things like customer service. One of the exceptions was Monte, the wedding shooter I worked for, but that was only because he was married (with two kids still in school) at the time and his wife Sandi handled the administrative side of the business. I had the opportunity to observe several other husband/wife teams who took Monte's classes and concluded its one of the better ways to run a wedding photography business due to the scheduling and impact on family. They worked out of their house and business and family blurred together.

I don't get "steamed" at people, amused would be closer to the mark. I'm an ENTP (google it) and we like to debate for sport on either side of a question. Its part of being curious. One doesn't learn much if all one does is hang around with a bunch of people who agree and give pats on the back. I've learn some interesting things here.

If people treat their customers with the same level of respect as they do to others here in the forums I can't see them staying in business very long. Most one man shows in any business fail because the owners lack core skills. Consider this: just the need to publicly ventilate about a customer shows a lack of maturity and good business sense. That's the bigger picture I'm talking about.



Nov 05, 2009 at 12:57 PM
lisy78
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p.2 #24 · Venting...


cgardner,

it's unfortunate that you spent as long as you did on your reply because I'm afraid the context is so different that your well-thought out post isn't really applicable.

The example you cited where you flew out and drove like a maniac etc. etc. etc. was a situation with a CLIENT, not a PROSPECT.

And if you're now going to come back with "look at what we would do for prospects" ... well it's a whole different ballgame. If someone were looking to get married once a month except for in December when they would get married twice... I might go the extra 3000 miles to get them into the slot. Most folks only get married once or twice and theres a huge time gap between those, and you can only squeeze one per day.

Ciao!

Not Lisy

Nov 05, 2009 at 01:06 PM
finster1018
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p.2 #25 · Venting...


cgardner wrote:

Don't underestimate the value of good will.


...than again, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. OP needs some thicker skin. If she is intent on making money, biz is biz....she's not out to make friends. What OP did seems appropriate to me. Unless client 'A' was a repeat, they were never a client so alas, they can never be right.

Nov 05, 2009 at 01:23 PM

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