First off understand that I am pretty much neutral on this topic. Both platforms have strengths and weaknesses. I use both platforms.
At this point the hardware debate won't get you anywhere because things are pretty identical. You can buy power macs with nehalem-core cpus and you can buy windows workstations wtih nehalem-core cpus. You can even run windows on your mac.
The differences are in software.
Lightroom runs both 32 and 64 bit on both platforms.
Photoshop runs in 64-bit on windows x64, but not on mac. Adobe was not able to have 64-bit photoshop ready because at the last minute Apple dropped 64-bit Carbon, so the Adobe team is now busy re-writing things for 64-bit Cocoa. This came as a complete surprise to Adobe (and everyone else), and to confuse things further many of Apple's own flagship apps like final cut and even the mighty apple 'finder' run on 32-bit Carbon libraries. So much for 64 bit...
So, for now, the windows space is the winner for photoshop users. The 64-bit abilities allow for much more memory to be used by the apps. Of course, you can install x64 windows on your mac and run the windows version of photoshop in 64-bit... but for a novice user that would be more complicated. (intermediate users and beyond should have no trouble doing that).
That said, in the hands of an expert, both platforms have enough flaws that I don't really care for either ;-)
Of course, if you know what you are doing, and aren't concerned with software licensing agreements, you can run mac's OSX on your non-apple hardware... (but why would you want to)
I though religious debates weren't allowed on FM ;-)
DragonflyDM wrote:
Of course this means also spending $199 for the CS4 upgrade, $99 for the Lightroom upgrade (so that I can get them migrated to Mac), and Microsoft Office, plus all the other bits and pieces I have collected.
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I'm not following this, LR has both Windows and Mac on the same disk.
I'm just bookmarking this thread, I'm in a similar position (time to upgrade) and most mac vs PC threads seem to be flamefests between fanboys - this seems to have some substance.
I currently use windows xp, I want a mac, I really want to like mac but I'd need to start from scratch - new software all round and relearning the OS and keyboard shortcuts.
Macs are shiny but PCs are cheap, as much as I want a Mac (I know, like a sheep following the cool crowd) PC prices are winning...
My needs don't appear to be as sophisticated as the OP's, but a year ago I went through the same process. I searched high and low for a REASON to spend the extra money on a Mac, but in the end I couldn't get the cost-benefit equation to balance out, let alone work in the Mac's favour.
So I picked up a cheepo refurbished HP quad core with 4 GB memory and twin 360 GB drives for $500 (remember, last year). I matched it with a nice 24" HP H-IPX monitor that I'll keep for years. My HP runs Vista just fine, thank you. But the point to my story is in another year I'll toss the box in the garbage and by a updated box for $500.
So for $250 a year I can always keep current. It may not be a powerhouse, mind you, but staying current every two years is good enough for me. Computers are now just commodities, and I have better places to put my money....like on Nikon gear!
uh oh... I can give you a pretty unbiased opinion, but I have been on mac since the dark times of amelio, and then the clones, and then jobs back to rescue it, and all I can say is no one else can have such an innovative product, hands down. Wins awards every year. Cost comparisons show that apple is pretty comparable. The OS is very intuitive, very well integrated with the apps. I use PC's all the time, I use CS3/CS4, and everything is dag-nabbit, the same, except for the key strokes (cntrl-vs-cmnd) you will get used to it fast.
you can always load snow leopard on peecees as well. With some finangling, it can be done. Look at the near-defunct psystar company, (http://psystar.com/) they preinstall OS X. but waayyyy cheaper...
Yep, the new imac 27" is tempting, considering the fact I have a mac mini running a 30" cinema display, 16x10 aspect ratio. Boot camp is nice, if I need to preview stuff on the pc side. I'm not sure if windows 7 will be compatible with bootcamp, most likely should be. Certain apps run smoothly on PC's, like the obvious office suite, capture NX also runs pretty well.
As another dual systems user (with a home built i7-920/12GB of RAM desktop and a 17 inch unibody MBP,) I agree with all posts claiming that OS preference is personal and that from a pure hardware perspective, you'll get more value for your money with a PC. My Mac is invaluable in the field but I use my PC as my main photo workstation. Here's why:
- As mentioned above, 64-bit Photoshop is only available for Windows. Not that it really matters when editing 12MP files, but it's nice to have.
- I find the entire CS4 interface works better with Windows. It's a better fit with Window's native multiple-document-interface strategy which CS4 mimics. Not that it's by any means unusable on the Mac, but I feel CS4's default interface and workflow settings fit well with how Windows operates. Again, a small matter.
- The ability to setup complex, internal RAID arrays is simply not possible on any Mac short of a Mac Pro, and even then it's extraordinarily expensive. While this is not necessarily a novice feature (unless you order a Dell or HP with RAID setup from the factory,) this is a very big deal. When I import photos into my PC's Lightroom archive, they're simultaneously transferred to a fast internal RAID-5 array and to an external backup drive.
- The ability to setup a RAMDisk and set Photoshop to use it as its Scratch disk provides for an enormous performance boost (far beyond what one can expect to realize by using the 64-bit version.) This can be done easily with freeware or shareware on a PC. Not sure if it can be done at all on the Mac.
- Lastly, I find tablet support to be more robust on the PC. Not that there's any difference when working in Photoshop or Capture NX2, per se, but at the OS level, handwriting and gesture support is very impressive. When connected to my PC, my tablet can fully replace my mouse. This is not hte case when I use it with my Mac.
Until moving over to be a full time photographer I spent 12 years in IT doing several things but much of it testing.
One thing I would urge high end PC users to do is either build their own rig (and put in a expensive power supply) or go with HP. Dell is, sorry to say not very good. That is not fanboy'ism but based in the fact that HP will guarantee workstations to have certain components. Dell is a part of the day vendor. If we order 30 machines at a time we have always found one or two differences between identically spec'd machines. It could be a modified chipset ... all the way to a different motherboard! It doesn't bite you then ... but after a while when you upgrade drivers etc ... it can drive you insane.
My only objection is that people keep saying that the Mac costs more. It does not. The only issue with Mac is when you try to go cheap. They simply don't build anything particularly inexpensive in their desktops. Order an identical machine from Dell (and I mean identical) and sometimes it is 5% cheaper ... sometimes 15% more expensive.
Of course building your own is the best approach - until you have to isolate intermittently flaky hardware and try to get things fixed. My time is money and as far as photography ... I no longer want to do my old job.
Lastly ... when you want power - and you put on anti-virus software, office and a couple of other common sofware packages - there goes 15% of that power. If I had to use a PC again, I would of course use ONLY a dedicated repository/editing box. Then I would buy a second cheaper PC for the rest of it ... or that $500 Mac Mini ... so I don't have to worry about all those headaches.
We use industrial grade anti-virus software with definitions pushed down by a Server. Still ... about four times a year we get what I consider an epidemic when some virus or malware writer gets the advantage on the anti-virus software guys for a moment. Then we typically get 20-50 workstations - which we often have to re-format. I've seen people crying over the loss of 5 years worth of work. It leaves an impression on ya. We make it easy to back up ... but you know how good intentions go.
I'm certified in both systems. As much as I love the registry (sarcasm) .... I won't consider any flavor of windows anything but a poorly designed with bandaids system - until they let that lousy concept go. (btw I started pre-dos) Dll's? ditto. What a lousy concept.
But perhaps it is the fact that I am an old Unix head that draws me to Mac OSx? Or perhaps it is choice. A Mac can run windows, Mac OSX or Linux. Basically all of it - and ALL the apps. There are some Mac only editing apps that are to die for. Or perhaps it is that I have never had to re-format a Mac when I have not wanted to. It just works. And what price that?
I buy pretty good bodies and lenses. My 24 pc-e is that last one (the 14-24 f 2.8 should be here this week) and I don't mind spending good money on good glass even if a lens like the 24 is not exactly "economical" or bang for my meager bucks. I see the stuff that you gent's post pictures with. Not many vivitar lenses, I've noticed. So leave that "bang for the buck" in the same perspective, I say. It strikes my ear as funny, and fanboy rhetoric when someone here posts pictures with their 300 f 2.8 and then in a debate such as this is quick to state that the Mac is expensive. It is not ... and PC bargains in the long run, usually aren't.
In either platform it is wise to buy at the higher end. It saves on grey hair ... no matter how you slice it.
Oh never mind. I just got the latest Best buy flyer. Hey ... did you see that deal on that 399.95 Acer at best buy? I guess Mac's do suck after all.
If you do wind up with another PC w/win7, make a partition for the Windows swap file, and make another partition for a Photoshop swap file. That should help you out quite a bit.
My preference for a DIY machine would include an ASUS motherboard for starters.
The HP Z400 workstations are excellent if you are looking for a prebuilt. The on-board SATA controller supports RAID-5. Add a modest quattro video card and 6+ gigs of ram and you'll be smokin'
Build one. Get a good ASUS mobo, good quality RAM, i7-based processor, good graphics card and of course, good power supply. Once you get it all in there, then get win7 x64 and have a blast.
DragonflyDM wrote:
OK..so then let us shift the conversation to "which PC should I be looking at?"
Dell. HP. Asus. Sony. ?
my only worry about building my own is compatibility. If anyone with experience building one wants to help me go shopping...lets go!
There really is no such thing as a Dell, HP etc anymore than its just a logo on the box
All the parts are going to be from a bunch of different companies like Asus, Gigabyte, Intel etc
I can spec out the same motherboard, video card, processor etc as Dell and have the exact same thing as a Dell, or a HP etc. They aren't using custom boards with special north and south bridges etc.
NightOwl Cat wrote:
If you do wind up with another PC w/win7, make a partition for the Windows swap file, and make another partition for a Photoshop swap file. That should help you out quite a bit.
My preference for a DIY machine would include an ASUS motherboard for starters.
Only do that if you have a second drive. Segmenting the windows swap on the same drive kills performance because the head has to move further. On a second drive it boosts it.
Bought my first Mac this year after many years of PC. It's an imac. The OS takes getting used to but isn't that tough and as has always been said, the graphics eat PC's alive. Never thought I'd be a Mac person and I hate their commercials but I truly think they have a better mouse trap.
Read the first page only so forgive me if this is slightly off base....
I and a couple others here on the FM boards have recommended a company called AVAdirect. They are an OEM company but with a Ma and Pa feel. When I was shopping for a PC a while back I hesitated about the normal OEM companies as they all seems to offer parts I did not want, or of a type I could not control, plus the OS is so filled with bloatware, I did not want to go down the road again. I searched several other smaller companeis and also Dell and HP. I finally found I could spend the same amount through AVA, get more bang for my buck and know that the parts I was getting were exactly what I wanted.
Sorry if that sounded ike a pitch, it really is not. I do feel that they treated me so well and where happy to answer the phone (no holds) and reply to my emails that I wanted to share a good company with others. I've had to deal with Dell support a few times (it even once took my three hours to actually buy simple monitor form them), so being able to call and have a real person with knowledge answer my questions was very nice.
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It's kinda like asking for definitive data that says Radiohead makes better music than Nickelback.