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Archive 2009 · Clarification

fotorelic
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p.7 #1 · Clarification

lisy78--I've read your post several times now, and I truly did not understand what you were trying to say to me on first reading, insults aside.

If you are saying that only certain amateur photography questions are OK on this forum, and others aren't, based on motivation, I would say that most amateurs don't know when they asking the second kind of amateur question, or that it is not a good thing. You are asking an amateur to make a distinction which he or she is probably not even aware of.

This is why I suggested the notice, which has been implemented and which I think is great. I don't see why an amateur should be expected to take the temperature of a forum before posting, I really don't. Many disagree, and many disagree about amateur 'responsiblity', but I would point out that the notice does not hurt, does it? And it might actually help.

Nov 02, 2009 at 09:52 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.7 #2 · Clarification

Enough already, really... what is the purpose of this back-and-forth?

Noobs are going to continue to come to this forum. Some will be flamed for their stupid questions and lack of respect for what we do and not knowing how to do a little work for themselves. And those noobs will have their feelings hurt, tough. Hopefully they'll never pick up their camera again, which they don't know how to use anyways, and we'll have one less uncle Bob to deal with.

Then there will be the noobs who ask intelligent questions who have at least the most basic understanding of how things work (because they've read up on the basics of camera controls and put in some time to practice themselves), and those will be the ones we help, and they will likely prosper in these forums. And those would be a joy to have uncle Bob'ing with me... those will be the courteous ones who stay out of your way and study what you do to improve themselves rather than just getting in the way.

The root problem here is that the OP represents something every professional wedding photographer has come to resent... And that is the notion that what we do is easy. People think "Oh, all you do is push buttons, and I could do what he does if I had that expensive camera and lens." Yeah, well there's a bit more to it than that, and it's frankly offensive that someone is posting on a WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER (not wedding photography, but photographER) saying that they got their new DSLR and essentially they thought they'd just TRY shooting a wedding even though they don't have a clue what they're doing. No he wasn't paid, but that's not the point. That you would even ATTEMPT to shoot one of the most difficult subjects in the world of photography without even understanding what camera-shake is... that's flat out offensive to A) think you can shoot a wedding with that level of skill B) ask for a spoon-feeding of such basic information that shows that you really couldn't care less about photography in the first place or you'd have read up on EXPOSURE, or at least what those buttons do...

It just pisses people off, and that's why this has gone to 7 pages. It is what it is. You don't eat a lemon and then scold it for being sour.

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:12 PM

fotorelic
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p.7 #3 · Clarification

OK. I was trying to be courteous to lisy78 by replying to something he said to me.

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:17 PM

Sam Hassas
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p.7 #4 · Clarification

Sam was here.

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:20 PM

Evan Baines
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p.7 #5 · Clarification

Sam Hassas wrote:
Sam was here.

You think you're Banksy or something?

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Sam Hassas
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p.7 #6 · Clarification

Evan Baines wrote:
Sam Hassas wrote:
Sam was here.

You think you're Banksy or something?

one of my faves from him/her

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:27 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.7 #7 · Clarification

i miss hassy.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Nov 02, 2009 at 10:56 PM

jennimon
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p.7 #8 · Clarification

I'm still having a hard time understanding how people got the idea that:

1) I'm brand-spanking new to photography. I had done research. I never alluded to the contrary. However, I am not a person who can learn just by reading. The best thing for me to do to learn is to jump head-first into something and trying to figure out what went wrong afterward. When I learned to play the guitar, trombone, and banjo, I started with hard songs and then filled in what I learned in those songs with more technical knowledge.
I "googled" the problems I had, but nothing came about that really told me what I did wrong, which is why I came here.

2) I don't know what camera shake is. Of course I know what it is. My main concern about the wedding is that the photos didn't work even when I had my camera setting a solid surface. I realize now that I just had screwed up a lot of things, which is what I am going to learn from.

3) I think wedding photography is easy. I never even thought of such a thing. Where did that come from? I've done family shoots and new-born shoots, and I appreciate the difficulties of those situations, so of course a wedding will be more extreme.
I have physical limitations and I thought the wedding a good friend, with consent and NOT by myself, would be a good way to figure out if I could handle the physical tax of being a wedding photographer. I would rather not learn during a complete stranger's wedding, or completely walk away from it without ever knowing for sure.
(and, by the way, I could not handle the pain I was in when the wedding was over; therefore I am not going to be a paid wedding photographer)

Perhaps I wasn't eloquent enough or didn't cover enough in my first post, or said a few things incorrectly or stupidly, or whatever. O.k. Lesson learned. Cover every single base before I post and be more technical.
Yes, I deleted it. I didn't think it was important enough to start such feuds and to brew hatred or animosity. I'm sorry that rubbed many of you the wrong way.
And I came back with a third one because I had seen that some people were really trying to help me. And I did get the advice I desired, so I really appreciate that. I will take that advice, learn it, use it, and hopefully never have to ask this forum stupid questions again.

I acknowledge that a lot of the comments I received were full of advice, even early on before I deleted the post, but I also felt like the advice had teeth - huge teeth. Giving advice with teeth is not completely necessary. I understand why a lot of people had teeth, but I still do not find it incredibly necessary.

If you were a member of a gym - a very enthusiastic weight lifter or jogger, would you scorn someone who had a trial membership? If that person came up to you and asked you how to work a machine or how to get the best results out of it, would you say "I'm not on a salary to answer your questions" or get wrapped up in semantics and start a debate?
I'd hope not.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:03 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.7 #9 · Clarification

ugh. it's not even worth the energy to go back and pull your original post. but from memory, before your endless clarifications, you said "the bride and good (sic. groom) knew i had no experience."

well, golly! that's where we get the idea that you have no experience. gee whiz. now i'm just annoyed.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:06 PM

jennimon
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p.7 #10 · Clarification

I meant no experience in wedding photography. That is where I needed to be specific with what I meant.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:07 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.7 #11 · Clarification

jennimon wrote:
I'm still having a hard time understanding how people got the idea that:

1) I'm brand-spanking new to photography. [...]

2) I don't know what camera shake is. Of course I know what it is. [...]

you declared that ^^^

i answered this >>> you said "the bride and good (sic. groom) knew i had no experience."

let. it. die.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:10 PM

BrianO
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p.7 #12 · Clarification

jennimon wrote: ...If you were a member of a gym - a very enthusiastic weight lifter or jogger, would you scorn someone who had a trial membership? If that person came up to you and asked you how to work a machine or how to get the best results out of it, would you say "I'm not on a salary to answer your questions" or get wrapped up in semantics and start a debate?
I'd hope not.

No, but if someone came up to me and said "I didn't win the Mr. Universe title even though I've been working out for a whole two weeks. Do you think something is wrong with the weights?" that would be worthy of some scorn, or at least mirth.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:18 PM

lisy78
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p.7 #13 · Clarification

fotorelic wrote:
lisy78--I've read your post several times now, and I truly did not understand what you were trying to say to me on first reading, insults aside.

If you are saying that only certain amateur photography questions are OK on this forum, and others aren't, based on motivation, I would say that most amateurs don't know when they asking the second kind of amateur question, or that it is not a good thing. You are asking an amateur to make a distinction which he or she is probably not even aware of.

This is why I suggested the notice, which has been implemented and which I think is great. I don't see why an amateur should be expected to take the temperature of a forum before posting, I really don't. Many disagree, and many disagree about amateur 'responsiblity', but I would point out that the notice does not hurt, does it? And it might actually help.

fotorelic, I did NOT insult you. I said you might be a troll or need help if you didn't get the difference between the questions, but you got the difference between the questions... so I don't see where the insult is.

I'm not the judge of what questions are or aren't ok and frankly I couldn't care less what anyone asks... if I think I can help I usually try to, provided that the poster shows that they've done the necessary legwork.

The OP has posted again in the thread and my feelings haven't changed... he(or she, I'm not sure which it is but it's irrelevant) is comparing shooting someone's wedding while having significant equipment and technical know-how limitations (I don't know what else to call his surprise at what the camera is doing using various settings) to his learning trombone by playing it. Frankly I would compare his wedding experiment to volounteering to play the trombone for a bunch of kids who have a ear condition that will require the removal of their ears the next day and who wish to hear their favorite song played one last time. If you can't make that trombone sing like there's no tomorrow, stay home and play for your friends. and if the foundation says they don't have money to hire a professional trombonist tell them to figure something else out. it's amazing what materializes at the 11th hour when you don't think you have alternatives.

For what it's worth I'm glad you continued this discussion which resulted in Evan's editing his post. i think the edit is indeed a VERY GOOD THING.

I would actually strengthen it to say something like "if you're going to shoot a wedding for free keep that to yourself, we really don't want to hear it.. since that really is the truth about that bit right there"

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:19 PM

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p.7 #14 · Clarification

Lisy and fotorelic, we get the point, take it to PM.
Thanks everyone for your input - today we have learned much.

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:24 PM

fotorelic
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p.7 #15 · Clarification

Nov 02, 2009 at 11:25 PM


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