But the problem with this forum is is people act like posting a question is stealing business and knowledge from a pro.
I can see someone getting mad if a poster said "Hey, I live in your town and I want you to teach me everything you know at your studio for free" where one on one personal real life training was going on using the pros equipment, and the trainee would be a direct competitor to the pro but this is an online forum where people are simply posting questions and getting answers. Yes, they can find those answers from online articles, books, training DVDs etc but forums are just as much of a source of information as any of the other things I mentioned.
Its the equivalent of me getting angry if someone on some forum asks me how to make an iPhone game. I dont get angry and accuse them of stealing from the pros or stealing the knowledge I worked for. I answer whatever questions I can because I know them. Its the experience I have in creating games that sets me apart that I know they wont be able to obtain without hard work and practice. I also don't get angry when I see a ton of free games out there because they don't have near the same quality as something that has a larger budget behind it and charges. It all comes down to "you get what you pay for".
The same thing goes with wedding photography. People are asking questions about the subjects they shot to get answers. They don't have the experience of the pros so I'm not sure why the pros worry. The pros work should set them apart in the eyes of a bride and if the bride wants to pay for a $500 photog cause thats all she wants or can afford, then thats what she's going to do. If she wants excellent photos and has the money, then she will pay for excellent photos. If she wants excellent photos and gets scammed by someone on Craigs list thats her fault for not doing the homework.
Wedding photography is seriously the only industry I can think of that hates the newcomer.
@the OP: One more thing I can think of, I'm not sure what camera body you use but Id recommend getting one that has a wheel on the back such as the Canon 5D, 7D, 50D etc. This wheel is indispensible when learning to shoot manual. Also, as others have stated, the Scott Kelby books are a great start to learn about lighting. A friend of mine got one and I looked through it and it teaches you a lot of basics.
I don't see a problem with you (collectively) running this forum like an insider's club, because this is a private forum, and if the forum administrators allow it, I guess it is OK. But--you should make this clear from the beginning, so that amateurs aren't surprised when they get stomped on.
I can see how an amateur, running across this forum, might think that he or she could get tips and support from professionals. Even the "Newbies, Please Read" and "Resources" articles are written in a friendly tone. What can 'situational awareness' derive from that? As it stands, there is nothing to let an amateur know that their questions are not welcome. This is a disservice, IMHO, and also not worthy of professionals, also IMHO.
fotorelic wrote:
I don't see a problem with you (collectively) running this forum like an insider's club, because this is a private forum, and if the forum administrators allow it, I guess it is OK. But--you should make this clear from the beginning, so that amateurs aren't surprised when they get stomped on.
I can see how an amateur, running across this forum, might think that he or she could get tips and support from professionals. Even the "Newbies, Please Read" and "Resources" articles are written in a friendly tone. What can 'situational awareness' derive from that? As it stands, there is nothing to let an amateur know that their questions are not welcome. This is a disservice, IMHO, and also not worthy of professionals, also IMHO....Show more →
I will add a note that I've never actually commented on whether or not the reception that the OP received was a good or a bad thing.... only that it was inherently predictable given the culture of this forum. Nobody is going to change the culture of this forum overnight, so it is in any newcomer's best interest to be situationally aware, and post accordingly. As I said in my previous posts, I personally welcome the participation of pros and amateurs alike here...
Wearing a Confederate flag t-shirt in certain neighborhoods of South Central LA might reasonably be expected to elicit an undesired response from the locals (you could substitute any one of a number of culturally insensitive acts/locations to this analogy, not singling out LA!). That response might be merely rude, or it might be violent and illegal. However, it would be fundamentally predictable and avoidable if one considered the nature of the environment before undertaking action.
ksmahgrts wrote:
it also doesn't help that the OP changed the original post like, 6 times. at this point, who knows what iteration of the post people are replying to.
This is true, it went from "I did my first wedding", sounding like the person was actually paid, to "no I was just Uncle Bobbing it for my port", to "you guys are really mean" to "OK here's the photos I took, plz help me".
Luckily FM has view previous iterations but who knows if anyone is checking that out. A lot of us were replying to the first iterations.
ksmahgrts--see my post immediately above Evan's. A notice to amateurs saying that their questions belong in a beginner forum, not on this one, or at least a statement of purpose for the forum, beyond the "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography", that makes it clear exactly who this forum is best suited for.
fotorelic wrote:
ksmahgrts--see my post immediately above Evan's. A notice to amateurs saying that their questions belong in a beginner forum, not on this one, or at least a statement of purpose for the forum, beyond the "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography", that makes it clear exactly who this forum is best suited for.
There is a notice, Evan's sticky note to beginners. People should dig deep into that before posting.
As I said above--the sticky note is written in a friendly tone. The OP's question (any of them) is not covered in the sticky article. I am saying that even if the OP read the sticky, as well as the resources article, he or she might conclude that this is a friendly place for an amateur to ask a question.
There is no statement that outright says that amateurs would get a better reception on beginner forums.
fotorelic wrote:
ksmahgrts--see my post immediately above Evan's. A notice to amateurs saying that their questions belong in a beginner forum, not on this one, or at least a statement of purpose for the forum, beyond the "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography", that makes it clear exactly who this forum is best suited for.
seriously? this is getting foolish.
a. questions from amateurs do not necessarily belong in a beginner forum. THIS amateur's questions did. the OPs questions were not about wedding photography. the OP didn't have even a basic grasp of exposure.
b. specific feedback about where to find beginner resources was met with defensive posturing from the OP and followed by grumpy criticism of the forum by others
c. what should one expect to find in a forum with the description "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography"? directions for how to make a ham sandwich?
fotorelic wrote:
As I said above--the sticky note is written in a friendly tone. The OP's question (any of them) is not covered in the sticky article. I am saying that even if the OP read the sticky, as well as the resources article, he or she might conclude that this is a friendly place for an amateur to ask a question.
There is no statement that outright says that amateurs would get a better reception on beginner forums.
What the OP got was a bunch of people shocked that she would shoot a wedding without knowing how to work a camera. No one was mean, no one told her to leave. People asked for more information to try to help, and offered what small amount of help they could.
How would you prefer it was handled? I'm pretty busy to be drawing up lesson plans for perfect strangers who have provided almost no information, but I welcome your thoughts on that.
On the contrary, I think what one would expect to find is, at the very least, courteous comments about 'where to go'. All you need do is to politely say that the OP might find their answers and support on another/beginner forum.
As for item A--how is a beginner going to know what level of beginner question belongs where? Item B could have been avoided altogether. Item C--I'm sorry I agree with Jazzy on this. Not clear enough that you (collectively) mean, "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography...so if you are an amateur with beginner questions, don't post".
Fun thread ..... read the entire thing ... slow work day.
To the OP: In this day and age of give it to me now .... being good at any profession takes time. You don't jump in without doing a little foot work.
example: you don't walk into a top end hair salon asking for advice not knowing how often or IF clippers or scissors require sharpening.
You jumped into a passionate/dedicated forum. While a public forum, this forum has very high standards for the craft of wedding/event photography.
Personaly it is why i visit here.
There is plenty of help and assistanst .... do a little leg work first - put some effort into the cause.
Chrono ..... every here of a place called Hollywood? Pretty ugly industry.
fotorelic wrote:
As I said above--the sticky note is written in a friendly tone. The OP's question (any of them) is not covered in the sticky article. I am saying that even if the OP read the sticky, as well as the resources article, he or she might conclude that this is a friendly place for an amateur to ask a question.
There is no statement that outright says that amateurs would get a better reception on beginner forums.
It's definitely covered in that sticky note. Question 9.
Carmina--since you asked, I would prefer that the question was answered. I tried to answer it earlier. Even without the OP's images, my answer would have been pretty much the same, maybe I would have asked some questions first.
I don't agree that the reaction was innocent shock. I think "tromping" is descriptive. However, my point is, this kind of thing can be avoided.
I don't agree that Question 9 answers the OP's question. But again, this is not the point. The article and resources article are written in a friendly tone. If the OP read both articles, I would find it logical that he or she would think that this is a friendly place to ask a question.
fotorelic wrote:
Carmina--since you asked, I would prefer that the question was answered. I tried to answer it earlier. Even without the OP's images, my answer would have been pretty much the same, maybe I would have asked some questions first.
I don't agree that the reaction was innocent shock. I think "tromping" is descriptive. However, my point is, this kind of thing can be avoided.
I think that if 10 people piped up offering different forums to visit you and your ilk would have found a problem with that too.
I'm not saying it was innocent. But you are trying to portray this forum as an angry mob with pitchforks and torches, which couldn't be further from the truth.
This conversation is totally pointless anyway. You have already made your mind up, and at this point are only grasping at things that you feel strengthen your position. Feel good that you are right according to you, and leave it at that.
fotorelic wrote:
I don't agree that Question 9 answers the OP's question. But again, this is not the point. The article and resources article are written in a friendly tone. If the OP read both articles, I would find it logical that he or she would think that this is a friendly place to ask a question.
Maybe, it might seem that way, but there's never going to be a guarantee of a positive or negative response. The Internets, like reality, is sometimes harsh. We don't live in a world covered with nerf material that keeps you or your ego from getting bruised. If I asked a question, I would rather someone be brutally honest than try and sugar coat some response. It's more honest isn't it? Honest is good.
And her question ultimately is why do my photos look bad?" Question 9 speaks to knowing and learning about exposure. Knowing about exposure would answer the question, "no my camera isn't why the photos look bad, I just need to make sure I'm exposing correctly." But I guess we could argue in circles all day.
