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Archive 2009 · Clarification

Evan Baines
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p.6 #1 · Clarification

fotorelic wrote:
I don't agree that Question 9 answers the OP's question. But again, this is not the point. The article and resources article are written in a friendly tone. If the OP read both articles, I would find it logical that he or she would think that this is a friendly place to ask a question.

I have added something to the beginning of my "Newbies" post that will hopefully give them an idea of what to expect when posting

Nov 02, 2009 at 06:57 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.6 #2 · Clarification

evan you're a panderer

and you should have included the text here because heaven knows people deserve to be spoon fed.

Here are some general tips on getting the most out of your FM Weddings posting experience:
-This forum is dedicated to professional wedding photography, and the majority of the regular participants are either professionals, or aspire to be pros. We WELCOME the participation of amateurs and hobbyists, but you will be better received by the shark tank if you are respectful of the fact that it takes a great deal of time and effort to become a good professional wedding photographer. You should be clear on whether you are shooting the wedding in any "professional" capacity, or if you are simply taking pictures for fun as a guest.

-Questions that demonstrate a lack of familiarity with the basics of focus and exposure will inevitably be heckled. They may be answered, but they will be heckled. I don't condone this, but merely caution you to expect it.

-If you are asking for help troubleshooting your images, it is imperative that you include the images (or a link to them), leave the exif intact OR post the exact settings used (mode, shutter speed, aperture, ISO, flash, etc), camera and lens used, etc. We can't tell you what went wrong if we can't see the images and know how they were shot.

-Have a thick skin! Some of the most crusty, cranky folks on here also have the best information to share.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:05 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #3 · Clarification

MPLS--Simply this. My words--you/the forum should use your words.

"This forum is dedicated to professional wedding photography. To this end, it is our hope that aspiring and established wedding photographers alike, will find support, advice and camaraderie. If you are seeking information about beginning wedding photography, or are not an aspiring wedding photographer, you may find that other forums are more suited to you. (List of possible forums)."

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:05 PM

maxwell1295
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p.6 #4 · Clarification

I'm still waiting for ksmahgrts to tell me how to make that ham sandwich...

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:07 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.6 #5 · Clarification

fotorelic wrote:
MPLS--Simply this. My words--you/the forum should use your words.

"This forum is dedicated to professional wedding photography. To this end, it is our hope that aspiring and established wedding photographers alike, will find support, advice and camaraderie. If you are seeking information about beginning wedding photography, or are not an aspiring wedding photographer, you may find that other forums are more suited to you. (List of possible forums)."

that would be lovely if it were true. too bad you've ignored repeated statements that AMATEURS ARE WELCOME.

words and actions have proven this as countless amateurs have grown into established pros with the help of this forum.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:08 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #6 · Clarification

Evan--sounds fine. That is exactly what I was suggesting.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:08 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #7 · Clarification

ksmahgrts--If amateurs are welcome, it sure doesn't show. But Evan's statement is good, IMHO.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:10 PM

Mr. Malik
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p.6 #8 · Clarification

Nail Biter!

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:15 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.6 #9 · Clarification

fotorelic wrote:
ksmahgrts--If amateurs are welcome, it sure doesn't show. But Evan's statement is good, IMHO.

again. it shows in the countless amateurs who have grown in this forum and are now established pros. that's pretty definitive proof.

should we call for a show of hands to convince you?

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:22 PM

JazzyMac
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p.6 #10 · Clarification

As one who actually read the newbies thread upon registering FM, I would have found the newest statement humorous, but as a good forewarning to folks who are truly "newbs" (myself).

Is having a website another requirement for this forum? If so, Mr. Baines...get to work!

I'm laughing out loud at the constant reference to trolls. This thread is still moving..on page six now!

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:27 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #11 · Clarification

ksmahgrts--It isn't necessary to convince me. I am referring to this particular thread.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:27 PM

Ziffl3
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p.6 #12 · Clarification

Since i am at the very beginning of being an amatuer aspiring to be a pro:

Start the count:
1.........

Evan .... nice intro.

Jazzy ..... don't forget the blog.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:28 PM

Evan Baines
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p.6 #13 · Clarification

I added a little bit to the intro since grits posted it. Of course, I'm open to suggestions to make this the most useful and tranquility-inspiring intro that it can possibly be.

Here are some general tips on getting the most out of your FM Weddings posting experience:
-This forum is dedicated to professional wedding photography, and the majority of the regular participants are either professionals, or aspire to be pros. We WELCOME the participation of amateurs and hobbyists, but you will be better received by the shark tank if you are respectful of the fact that it takes a great deal of time and effort to become a good professional wedding photographer. If you are posting images or asking for help with taking pictures, you should be clear on whether you are shooting the wedding in any "professional" capacity, or if you are simply taking pictures for fun as a guest.

-Questions that demonstrate a lack of familiarity with the basics of focus and exposure will inevitably be heckled. They may be answered, but they will be heckled. I don't condone this, but merely caution you to expect it. This is magnified ten-fold if you claim or imply any "professional" status. Shooting a wedding is frequently very demanding of one's technical abilities, and it is the general consensus that anyone shooting a wedding in a remotely "official" capacity should already be thoroughly grounded in the fundamentals of focus, exposure, and other basic camera functions.

-If you are asking for help troubleshooting your images, it is imperative that you include the images (or a link to them), leave the exif intact OR post the exact settings used (mode, shutter speed, aperture, ISO, flash, etc), camera and lens used, etc. We can't tell you what went wrong if we can't see the images and know how they were shot.

-Have a thick skin! Some of the most crusty, cranky folks on here also have the best information to share.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:33 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #14 · Clarification

You might give a couple of suggestions for forums better suited.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:38 PM

Lucky_Dog
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p.6 #15 · Clarification

I'll have to be honest here... I think there is a whole lot of whining going on. FM is one of the kindler, gentler forums I have ever visited.... I’ve seen MANY newbs get all kinds of help, myself included. I’ve never been turned away... then again; I was respectful of people’s livelihoods to the extent possible while nurturing my fledgling business.

I intend to help any serious newcomer the best I can... folks that want it handed to them, or come with contempt, can forget it. Simple as that, really.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:40 PM

MPLS_photog
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p.6 #16 · Clarification

JazzyMac wrote:
As one who actually read the newbies thread upon registering FM, I would have found the newest statement humorous, but as a good forewarning to folks who are truly "newbs" (myself).

Is having a website another requirement for this forum? If so, Mr. Baines...get to work!

I'm laughing out loud at the constant reference to trolls. This thread is still moving..on page six now!

Didn't you already "quit this thread"?

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:41 PM

Jeremy Conoley
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p.6 #17 · Clarification

Long time member rare poster here (feels like the begining of an Anonymous meeting

)

I'm not here to defend or condem anyone on this thread but I think there's something that might be said.

The volume of solid advice, suggestions, heck in some cases business models and actions in this forum seems to me to be a little higher caliber, or at the very least without as much "I'm a Pro and you're not so you're not worth my time" mentality as a lot of other forums. Even here on certain FM forums it can seem almost as if you mention you're not dyed in the wool or feeding your family solely on Photography alone you're dismissed.

The people in general in the wedding forums tend to be more open or at least open minded with people coming in asking the same question for the 50th time.

Posts like Evans sticky have saved me personally from wasting time trolling forums for certain mindsets in how to approach photography as a business. When I started pushing myself to cutting the corporate chain (someday I am sure I will, just not yet) I set out 3 phases in no particular order:
1. know your gear
2. know your business
3. know your vision

it sounds like the original poster is working on #3 and having issues with #1.
Some places that might help with the mechanics are the lighting forum here or even Digital Photography School for camera or set up specifics. One thing that FM doesn't have is a "new to cameras section", nor do I think it should. I'd rather read posts from people who do this daily and have some other venue to look to that cover that aspect very well. But I think that may be why people see it more frequently in fourms like this one.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:43 PM

lisy78
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p.6 #18 · Clarification

fotorelic wrote:
On the contrary, I think what one would expect to find is, at the very least, courteous comments about 'where to go'. All you need do is to politely say that the OP might find their answers and support on another/beginner forum.

As for item A--how is a beginner going to know what level of beginner question belongs where? Item B could have been avoided altogether. Item C--I'm sorry I agree with Jazzy on this. Not clear enough that you (collectively) mean, "Dedicated to Professional Wedding Photography...so if you are an amateur with beginner questions, don't post".

fotorelic,

are you for real?

No seriously.

Do you not see the difference between this "AMATEUR WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHER" question: "Hi, I will be shooting my first wedding next Sunday, the venue does not allow flash photography, so I will be relying on my 70-200 2.8 to get shots from the back of the church. Do you have any suggestions as to the best place to position myself as a second shooter to be able to shoot both the Bride/Father entrance and the mom's reaction?"

and this "AMATEUR LOOKY LOOKY I HAVE A CAMERA" question: "Hi, I will be shooting my first wedding next Sunday. When the light is low I get shaking images, even with flash and I try all the different modes but it doesn't help how do I avoid the blurry?"

Ok, I'm exagerating here... but let's not be stoopid here... this is NOT intended as a BEGINNING PHOTOGRAPHER forum.

Well actually that's part of the problem... maybe some people think they can go out, buy a DSLR and learn how to take photos at people's weddings. Well that idea frankly disgusts me. Go shoot some flowers, a bottle and a table. In art school they teach you to start with "still life" for two reasons:

1. you can learn all the basics of painting by painting grapes and wine bottles

2. it's rude to a model to expect her to sit there while you figure out that mixing red and yellow gives .... oh look: ORANGE!!! Who-hoo!

If you don't get this... then either:

1. You're a troll
or
2. You might need help.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:43 PM

JazzyMac
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p.6 #19 · Clarification

MPLS_photog wrote:
JazzyMac wrote:
As one who actually read the newbies thread upon registering FM, I would have found the newest statement humorous, but as a good forewarning to folks who are truly "newbs" (myself).

Is having a website another requirement for this forum? If so, Mr. Baines...get to work!

I'm laughing out loud at the constant reference to trolls. This thread is still moving..on page six now!

Didn't you already "quit this thread"?

Fell off the wagon.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:47 PM

Beauchamp
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p.6 #20 · Clarification

From my experience lurking and posting here, amateurs are welcome. But, they are expected to do some pretty basic stuff to earn that welcome, like maybe read a few posts and actually be aware of the environment they are in.

Like every other Internet forum, it pays to hang out and actually read the Wedding Forum a little bit before getting an account and posting. Maybe even search for similar topics (shocking, I know!).

As Evan mentioned, this response was 100% predictable to anybody paying attention. Ignorant posting is not really any different than intentional trolling.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:52 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #21 · Clarification

lisy78--I am for real. However, as I said earlier, I don't feel I need to prove myself to you or anyone. You may take my comments at face value.

I see the difference between your two examples. What is the question?

I know this is not intended to be a beginning photographer's forum.

Again. Statement acknowledged. You can call me a troll if you wish. My opinion is that this is rude and unnecessary.

I don't need help, but I don't know what help you are referring to.

Nov 02, 2009 at 07:54 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.6 #22 · Clarification

There is no spoon.

Nov 02, 2009 at 08:11 PM

fotorelic
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p.6 #23 · Clarification

OK.

Nov 02, 2009 at 08:21 PM

EVO088
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p.6 #24 · Clarification

as a new comer myself compared to some of the veterans on here .. here is what i think

this forum can be a bit rude at times and sometimes even very put-offish. but seriously if you want to learn, you have to have a very thick skin and be able to take the bluntness of this forum. if you are looking to be hand held, this really isn't the forum for it.

after spending alot of time on here .. this and like any other forums, there are a clique of guys/gals here that have spend their time together and grown together and have proven or shown themselves that they actually know this business and can make $$ from it .. now imagine, going back to the mechanic theory, a master mechanic is being asked every day at his shop by just about anyone, "which tools should i start with?" "should i replace the piston in a Rotary engine?" "what books should i read?" stuff like that .. it can be very annoying and most would become a bit crazy ..

my point is this .. instead of asking, how about spend alittle time reading the threads and most stickies. I know I sound like most, but the search function on any forum is very helpful and it will cover 90% of the questions or concerns you already have or is going through ..

I have posted my questions on here and posted my images for review .. some got ripped apart and some where just ignored. heck, my last post of images, most of the reviews were all about the boots of what the girl wore

. but honestly, there can be a great deal of help here and a great deal of pros as well that can really help in the business side and technique side!

basically .. stop taking anything on here said to or about you personally .. take it with a grain of salt and if you dont agree with what this forum is saying .. there are tons of others that will fit your tastes!

last thing .. if you need to be warned about the "rudeness" of this forum .. there is always POTN which really serves the starting guys with starter kits alot of good.

Nov 02, 2009 at 08:32 PM

Mr. Malik
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p.6 #25 · Clarification

All hail for the Mechanic theory

Nov 02, 2009 at 08:34 PM


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