what is '3d' ?

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Archive 2009 · what is '3d' ?

RustyBug
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p.9 #1 · what is '3d' ?

carstenw ... that's a VERY good way of explaining the diff, makes sense. Of course, having both can be a good thing

Nov 15, 2009 at 12:34 AM

davidearls
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p.9 #2 · what is '3d' ?

Interesting thread.

I think we all wish there was a magic formula consisting of camea body, lens, f-stop, shooting distance and light conditions that produces 3D, but I think that overlooks the skill of the photographer in producing the image - which includes a lot of things that happen both before and after the shutter is pressed.

To my eye, the first of these images has, at best, a "little 3D", but the second has "big 3D", and guess what!!!??

They are the same image. The first image was processed to produce the second. It had some color contrast enhancement and sharpening applied. To my eye, the second image reveals the tiny spaces that make up texture; the first does not. It's the presence of the "tiny spaces" that make 3D to me. Large subjects in shallow depth of field do not make 3D, to me.

Obviously the lens used (a Zuiko 55 f1.2, stopped down) captured all the "3D parts" but they didn't just appear, they had to be revealed - "dusted off", if you will, in PP. I'm not going to say that A) the Zuiko 55 f1.2 is the consummate 3D lens or B) every image ever captured by any lens can be processed to get the 3D effect.

So whether 3D "exists" in an image is, in large part, the answer to the questions the photographer poses to himself: does this image contain 3D? How do I get it?

JMO

2012 © davidearls

Nov 15, 2009 at 06:30 PM

philber
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p.9 #3 · what is '3d' ?

David, thanks for a truly lovely shot. But, to my eye, your explanation does not fit. To me (this thread shows divergence on what is "3D"), both your shots have more or less the same 3D. The second one is only sharper, which makes it more obvious. To me 3D is not a form of sharpness. Zeiss lenses which seem to shine more often than most in this area are not, IMHO, sharper than Leica lenses which are not renowned for 3D. Just my 2 cents.

Nov 15, 2009 at 06:36 PM

carstenw
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p.9 #4 · what is '3d' ?

I would go a bit further and say that the first shot looks soft and the second one over-sharpened.

Nov 15, 2009 at 07:26 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.9 #5 · what is '3d' ?

What do you think about this one? Any 3D?

Zeiss Alpha 16-35/2.8 at 35mm f/2.8

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Nov 16, 2009 at 05:51 PM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #6 · what is '3d' ?

carstenw wrote:
I would go a bit further and say that the first shot looks soft and the second one over-sharpened.

+1

Nov 16, 2009 at 06:00 PM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #7 · what is '3d' ?

edwardkaraa wrote:
What do you think about this one? Any 3D?

Zeiss Alpha 16-35/2.8 at 35mm f/2.8

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Yes, I think it does, a bit.

Nov 16, 2009 at 06:01 PM

philber
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p.9 #8 · what is '3d' ?

Enough for my requirements...:-)

Nov 16, 2009 at 07:04 PM

synthesist
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p.9 #9 · what is '3d' ?

Does this photo have this 3D effect?

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(NOTE: I did not take this photo. I decided to link it here to try to understand what this effect really is. For the sake of not plagiarizing, PM me for the actual source.)

Nov 18, 2009 at 04:54 AM

trumpet_guy
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p.9 #10 · what is '3d' ?

It's tough to detect such effects in a small image.
My first impression is that I don't notice much 3D in the image.
Where's the source?

Nov 18, 2009 at 05:09 AM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #11 · what is '3d' ?

I dont think so...The bokeh is highly distracting which really does'nt help and because its been taken at a wide apeture the forground is'nt that sharp and DOF is shallow enough thats theres poor seperation of forground from background.
I suspect its taken with a fast 50?, which, going by this thread, dont seem to be too good for producing 3D images and it seems that that most lenses that are able to give a 3D effect, in the right conditions, have focal lengths of at least 85mm or more, with 135mm being optimal for the effect...But thats just going by the pics in this thread. Is this because they have simply used very sharp 85-135mm lenses with really nice bokeh?...Probably. Is its essential to have very sharp 85-135mm lenses with really nice bokeh to produce the effect? No but it certainly seems to help.
Its strange that I dont recall anyone posting any pics from lenses of over 200mm in this thread that show the effect, although I think my 180mm pics did. (not everyone agreed though).

Nov 18, 2009 at 05:27 AM

thrice
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p.9 #12 · what is '3d' ?

Is there any 3D in this shot? I find the hand on the right tends to separate from the torso quite well.

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or this shot? (taken on film mind you, the grain might blur the separation and lessen the effect)

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Nov 18, 2009 at 05:42 AM

synthesist
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p.9 #13 · what is '3d' ?

I'm having a very hard time distinguishing between an image with short DOF and this 3d effect.

Would someone care to end this discussion once and for all.

If someone has two lenses at the same focal length, one with the 3d effect and one without:

Can you please take the same identical shot and show us?

Nov 18, 2009 at 06:05 AM

loudtiger
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p.9 #14 · what is '3d' ?

after seeing the watering can here's my take on the subject.

what we perceive to be '3D' is what matches our vision the most. you experience "depth of field" all the time with your own eyes. right now reading this post, you're concentrating on the screen, and the other objects in your room are "blurred" by your eye's bokeh. whichever lens approximates that the most seems the most "3D", or "real", because that's what you're used to seeing with your eyes. does that make sense?

i used to shoot with the CZ 50/1.4 a lot, and it definitely had that effect, whether wide open with short DOF, or stopped down a little bit.

Nov 18, 2009 at 06:22 AM

synthesist
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p.9 #15 · what is '3d' ?

@loudtiger
I understand that, and for the most part photos with just the right amount of DOF appear 3d to me.

Reading back into the previous pages, the only photo that really strikes me as 3d is the photo of the rocks on the beach.
Everything is in focus, yet the rocks seem three dimensional. They're almost bulging out of my screen. How is this possible? What makes one lens be able to do that and another lens not.

I've been researching alt lenses all day today, and I can honestly say that I'm not seeing MASSIVE differences between most lenses.
Other than CA and some sharpness and color differences, all these lenses are seeming extremely similar to me.
If I'm not detecting these differences, do they really matter?

Nov 18, 2009 at 07:16 AM

Leon Noel
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p.9 #16 · what is '3d' ?

Richard probably would associate lens design with 3d look. While I agree to a certain extent, I still strongly believe micro contrast will play the biggest role.

What's 1 thing that all zeiss lenses have in common? Not the design, some are Planar some are Sonnar some are Tessar, some are primes and some are zooms. But all of them to a certain degree are successful at introducing 'pop' into the scene (nothing music related here

). Which leads me to deduct the secret must be what all those Zeiss have in common, T* coating.

T* coating is extremely adept at retaining micro contrast, even under unfavorable lighting conditions, of course it can still flare or ghost if the lens design is too complicated (e.g, C/Y Contax Distagon 21mm), but for the most part subtle tonal details are conserved. This helps produce a 'live' and vivid look which our eyes are accustomed too.

If you think about it, for a subject's form to 'pop', 2 conditions should be met:
1./ it's surface texture should be there
2./ edge contrast should be there

A lens that fails to render subtle texture on the surface of an object will make the subject itself appear flat and lifeless; on the other hand a lens with good micro contrast will retain all those subtle details. And edge contrast is pretty self explanatory, it determines whether the subject blends into the background or gets lifted off it, here micro contrast will help render those tiny details at the edges of the subject, before the DOF falls off completely and transits into the blur background. Lens design would help tremendously here, smooth or abrupt transition also contributes to whether things pop or blend with background.

End of analysis.

Nov 18, 2009 at 07:52 AM

georgweb
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p.9 #17 · what is '3d' ?

You can see me in 3D - please tell me if one of those is 3D to your eyes.
I'll not enter the tech discussion cause I'm from Germany :-)

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Best, Georg

Nov 21, 2009 at 03:13 AM

carstenw
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p.9 #18 · what is '3d' ?

IMO the frog has some 3D going on. The other two have a sense of depth, due to the many layers, but I don't see any 3D, i.e. nothing in there has that strong feeling of shape. The possibly minor exception would be the balloons.

Nov 21, 2009 at 05:23 PM

georgweb
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p.9 #19 · what is '3d' ?

Thanks for coming back Carsten ! I understand you are linking 3D less to depth and more to a bodily appearance a.k.a. 'perception of roundness'.
I'd think so, too (like people's heads in portraits). One variable is the size of the image, and I think most pics look more 3D the bigger they are displayed.
BTW none of those pics have been pp'd but some are cropped. One is Zeiss East, one West, one Leica .-)
Best, Georg

Edited on Nov 21, 2009 at 07:52 PM · View previous versions

Nov 21, 2009 at 07:51 PM

espressogeek
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p.9 #20 · what is '3d' ?

Georg, what setup were those photos taken with? I would say that is very 3d to my old eyes.

Nov 21, 2009 at 07:51 PM

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