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jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #1 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments What photography business market segments are the most profitable? I look forward to reading all on point comments. If you can direct me to any valid resources I would appreciate that as well. Thanks "All Actions are Rewarded" JM Oct 27, 2009 at 08:57 PM

Top Gun Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #2 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Paparazzi........end of argument? Oct 27, 2009 at 09:04 PM

shatterkiss Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #3 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Define "most profitable"? Biggest potential net dollar amount based on unlimited capital and overhead investment? Largest percentage profit compared to overhead and initial outlay? Highest likelihood of generating any profit based on minimal overhead? This is in the context of what region or country? Based on what skill level and business aptitude/experience? Oct 27, 2009 at 09:26 PM

jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #4 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Interesting thoughts Perhaps you are the best one to define what "most profitable" means to you and what market segments meet your criteria. Oct 27, 2009 at 10:05 PM

_Rob_S_ Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #5 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments I had an interesting discussion with a colleague tonight on this subject. I asked him about commercial photography needs and he basically said he doesn't need commercial photography as that is only one element in the puzzle. He wants a brochure, or a web-site, or a catalog, or whatever his end need is. He isn't interested in the photography specifically, he wants the final product that helps his business (not that the photography shouldn't be good). I thought this was an interesting perspective. Oct 27, 2009 at 10:11 PM

TezM Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #6 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments depends... the paparazzi would have a loud voice in the profitability department IF you got the right shot. I remember speaking to a pap buddy of mine about 5 yrs ago and he said he could retire tomorrow if he had a picture of David Beckham doing something he shouldn't (he actually said "Dave Beckham f***ing a pig"), so in a way you could take 1 picture and live off it if it's the right pic at the right time. BUT, if you're talking sustainable income then papping probably isn't the way you go as it's so so fickle. Oct 27, 2009 at 11:06 PM

Kittyk Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #7 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments i am not sure the approach "where are easiest moneys" will get you what you think, some areas are not really that easy to do and it is not always as simple as "will do it, will be good at it, because others are too..." from commercial photography we find most rewarding (passion/income ratio) wedding photography. from income volume it is art photography, from time/profit/simplicity it is catalog shoots photography so to simplify: we make most moneys on art prints. prefer to book a day for weddings and easiest moneys for us are catalog shoots. Oct 29, 2009 at 05:45 AM

justruss Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #8 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Most profitable photo business segment? How about OWNING a microstock company. Oct 29, 2009 at 02:07 PM

Brent Ward Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments justruss wrote: Most profitable photo business segment? How about OWNING a microstock company. True story. Oct 29, 2009 at 10:54 PM

mrphoto Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #10 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments You ask this question as if it were a commodity you were investing in. Photography is first off, a craft that one has to mastered. Without that, you will never make it really bid. Yes, with marketing talents and not much in the way of photographic talent, you can probably make a living, but you'll really never make it to the "top." and make serious money. I went to photography school right out of high school and then had a job or two where I sort of figured out what talents I had, what my strong points were... At that point, you tend to gravitate toward your strengths as a photographer. My talents were tedious lighting. I enjoy the "lighting" aspect of photography more than the other parts so I tended to gravitate toward a part of photography that used that talent. I'm primarily a food photographer because of that. I never thought that I'd be a food photographer when I was in high school, it's just something that evolved. And I would give that advice to anyone entering the field of professional photography. Start out with a basic photographic education in commercial photography, assist for a while, shoot freelance jobs to make some money, and then end up where your talents take you... btw - my web site is http://www.foodportfolio.com Good luck MR Oct 31, 2009 at 01:43 PM

jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #11 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments I appreciate your thoughts. I believe that ONE of the criteria to be successful in any business is to understand the business environment in all its flavors. I'm sure we know many photographically talented but broke individuals, who would have been more successful if they treated their efforts in a professional business like manner rather than expecting that people would be knocking down their door just because they were photographically talented. It makes no sense, to me, if one enjoys their art but is unable to pay the bills because they focused their professional efforts on an area that by its nature or circumstance is unable to provide financial reward. In my last venture that I was involved in I failed to understand many aspects of the business before I started. From the competition, time to complete a project, expenses, commission splits, impact of market and regulations changing, number of clients and projects required to break even, etc. But I did enjoy it while it lasted but I was not making a living. I hope not to have that happen again by getting all my ducks in a row first. I cannot afford something that just evolves. Lack of knowledge has too many inherited risks. "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself." mrphoto wrote: You ask this question as if it were a commodity you were investing in. Photography is first off, a craft that one has to mastered. Without that, you will never make it really bid. Yes, with marketing talents and not much in the way of photographic talent, you can probably make a living, but you'll really never make it to the "top." and make serious money. I went to photography school right out of high school and then had a job or two where I sort of figured out what talents I had, what my strong points were... At that point, you tend to gravitate toward your strengths as a photographer. My talents were tedious lighting. I enjoy the "lighting" aspect of photography more than the other parts so I tended to gravitate toward a part of photography that used that talent. I'm primarily a food photographer because of that. I never thought that I'd be a food photographer when I was in high school, it's just something that evolved. And I would give that advice to anyone entering the field of professional photography. Start out with a basic photographic education in commercial photography, assist for a while, shoot freelance jobs to make some money, and then end up where your talents take you... btw - my web site is http://www.foodportfolio.com Good luck MR Nov 01, 2009 at 04:37 AM

Micky Bill Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #12 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments You say nothing of what you want to shoot, is it weddings, magazine work, fashion, cars, food, catalogs, kids sports or what? Ten or twenty years ago many people were making a lot money in commercial photography. Due to many different factors that you will learn as you do your research, today is different many studios are closing their doors as the entire market has changed. There is always room at the top for the best photographer in their genre or specialiity and there is always room at the bottom for the cheapest $ photographer. most of us are fighting it out in the 80% middle area which is rapidly shrinking. I'd suggest finding a better way to make money if that's your diving force. I know a guy who imports crappy tools from China, he has a big house, a fast Audi and all the camera stuff he could ever want. There are easier and more lucrative businesses than photography. Nov 01, 2009 at 07:18 AM

justruss Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #13 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments OP: It is wise to learn about the business environment, but asking on a rather empty "pro" photo forum what type of photography business is most profitable doesn't really address your desire to "know the business environment." It's almost so vague a question as to be useless. Far more important is understanding the market for different types of photography where YOU are geographically located (or plan to be), whether the market is contracting (probably) or expanding, who is already serving that market, how well the suppliers to the market are matched and meeting the demand of the market, what approaching changes may impact your market, what is happening to unit pricing/marginal costs in that market, etc. What is profitable in Topeka might not be in NYC-- and vice versa. Same goes with your various costs, quality of life, etc. I think that's part of the reason you're getting so much push-back from the forum. Compound that with the fact that the bulk of photography going on is NOT very profitable, and you'll realize that the majority of "most profitable" photographers tend to be outliers within their fields (unlike many other industries/careers, where there's more of a normal curve distribution of incomes). My personal feeling is that from an economic standpoint, going into photography is not a rational move these days. You don't do it full time for the money so much as you do it in spite of the money... if you can get enough to stay above water. Nov 01, 2009 at 02:09 PM

jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #14 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Thanks for the info If you know of other "pro" photo forums that might be more appropriate; I am all ears (in this case, eyes). I don't feel it as "push-back" as much as individuals having different reasons for doing what they do, and different ways of doing it. I'm not sure what 'outliers within their fields' represent to you. I believe my question is quite specific as an initial start in my interest to understand what market segments are profitable. I am hoping that by finding what the most profitable segments are, I will also find those that aren't. And not have to do the same thing that others have already done and failed. I believe without doing the proper planning, and asking the proper questions, one won't generate the financial profit necessary to pursue one's desires fully. No matter why one got into it in the first place. If one stands in the intersection pursuing their passion it won't be long before one gets run over. That is why I hope to learn what has been successful and what has not. What can be done differently to make successful and what cannot. Excellent firms don't believe in excellence. Only in constant improvement and constant change. - Tom Peters justruss wrote: OP: It is wise to learn about the business environment, but asking on a rather empty "pro" photo forum what type of photography business is most profitable doesn't really address your desire to "know the business environment." It's almost so vague a question as to be useless. Far more important is understanding the market for different types of photography where YOU are geographically located (or plan to be), whether the market is contracting (probably) or expanding, who is already serving that market, how well the suppliers to the market are matched and meeting the demand of the market, what approaching changes may impact your market, what is happening to unit pricing/marginal costs in that market, etc. What is profitable in Topeka might not be in NYC-- and vice versa. Same goes with your various costs, quality of life, etc. I think that's part of the reason you're getting so much push-back from the forum. Compound that with the fact that the bulk of photography going on is NOT very profitable, and you'll realize that the majority of "most profitable" photographers tend to be outliers within their fields (unlike many other industries/careers, where there's more of a normal curve distribution of incomes). My personal feeling is that from an economic standpoint, going into photography is not a rational move these days. You don't do it full time for the money so much as you do it in spite of the money... if you can get enough to stay above water. Nov 01, 2009 at 10:16 PM

Micky Bill Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #15 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments jjsterling wrote: Thanks for the info If you know of other "pro" photo forums that might be more appropriate; I am all ears (in this case, eyes). I don't feel it as "push-back" as much as individuals having different reasons for doing what they do, and different ways of doing it. I'm not sure what 'outliers within their fields' represent to you. I believe my question is quite specific as an initial start in my interest to understand what market segments are profitable. I am hoping that by finding what the most profitable segments are, I will also find those that aren't. And not have to do the same thing that others have already done and failed. I believe without doing the proper planning, and asking the proper questions, one won't generate the financial profit necessary to pursue one's desires fully. No matter why one got into it in the first place. If one stands in the intersection pursuing their passion it won't be long before one gets run over. That is why I hope to learn what has been successful and what has not. What can be done differently to make successful and what cannot. Excellent firms don't believe in excellence. Only in constant improvement and constant change. - Tom Peters justruss wrote: OP: It is wise to learn about the business environment, but asking on a rather empty "pro" photo forum what type of photography business is most profitable doesn't really address your desire to "know the business environment." It's almost so vague a question as to be useless. Far more important is understanding the market for different types of photography where YOU are geographically located (or plan to be), whether the market is contracting (probably) or expanding, who is already serving that market, how well the suppliers to the market are matched and meeting the demand of the market, what approaching changes may impact your market, what is happening to unit pricing/marginal costs in that market, etc. What is profitable in Topeka might not be in NYC-- and vice versa. Same goes with your various costs, quality of life, etc. I think that's part of the reason you're getting so much push-back from the forum. Compound that with the fact that the bulk of photography going on is NOT very profitable, and you'll realize that the majority of "most profitable" photographers tend to be outliers within their fields (unlike many other industries/careers, where there's more of a normal curve distribution of incomes). My personal feeling is that from an economic standpoint, going into photography is not a rational move these days. You don't do it full time for the money so much as you do it in spite of the money... if you can get enough to stay above water. If you think you were specific in your question a career in politics or writing mission statements might be a better choice than photography, it's a very vague question. I know a ex-paparazzi who took a picture of a star doing something stupid and he made $35,000 after the split with his agency, after starting his own agency he now owns mid level apartments in Burbank . I know a guy who shoots catalogs for clothing companies that we all know he bills about $300,000 per 6 week job, he does 3 or 4 a year has a house in NYC, Paris and 2 in the SF Bay area. Once I made more in a two day shoot than in my entire first two years in business. Another guy I know turned his parents sleepy little wedding studio in to a hip and popular operation and was billing close to $400,000 five years ago I don't know if he still doing that. There are sports guys on FM doing kid sports events and it sounds like they are doing quite well. There is no answer for your question until you narrow it down somewhat. What's you background are you able to step into a business like these or not. Most photographers find their passion and hope it makes them some money, not the other way around. The APA has a forum Luminous Landscapes has a lot of different pros on it Edited on Nov 02, 2009 at 06:00 AM · View previous versions Nov 02, 2009 at 02:41 AM

Brent Ward Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #16 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments I say what your really looking for is high end fashion photography. 7 figure annual contracts or more. I would start there. Nov 02, 2009 at 03:26 AM

Steve Ickes Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #17 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments I'm confused? So you're just starting out and your first question is "how and where can I make the most money in photography"? Nov 02, 2009 at 03:26 AM

jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #18 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments I realize that it may be difficult for some to accept what they do as an artistic endeavor rather than a business. To examine whether they are on track to meet their goals from a non-prejudice position. Potentially having to make adjustments and move in a different direction. For me I am hoping to avoid as many pitfalls in what I settle on accomplishing. By learning as much as possible prior to putting my time, energy and dreams towards something that will allow me to reach my goals of enjoyment and reward. And thank you I do take pleasure in how some will try to re-work what I asked. Perhaps trying to bait me for some sport. A man who does not plan long ahead will find trouble at his door. - Confucius Nov 02, 2009 at 05:47 AM

Micky Bill Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #19 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Baiting goes both ways my friend. I still wonder why one would choose photography as a business when there are so many other way to make a lot more money easier and more predictably. I think most of the people I know who are photographers DO treat it as an artistic endevour more than a business, usually ending in problems. IMO photography is not like a factory, you cant run the machines an extra day and make and extra pile of money, there are a whole lot of variables involved regarding talent, ability, trends, fads, creativity, budgets, fickle clients, etc, etc. We do it because we can't or won't do anything else. Most photographers didn't think about how much $ they could make when they started their business, and if we had listened to the stats we'd find out that the average photgrapher makes somewhere in the area of $25k per year. not per day or per shot or per job. Per year. We put a lot more into our art and or passion than we would if we were selling cheap Chinese tools like my friend. But he is making a lot more money than most of us. And someday he will change his business and make more money. OTOH if you are able to land a high end fashion photography 7 figure contract like Brent suggests I apologize. "Using your quote of the day desk calendar doesn't make you any smarter than the rest of us" -Micky Bill Nov 02, 2009 at 06:20 AM

jjsterling Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #20 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments One who knows, he doesn't know, is the smartest. Micky Bill wrote: Baiting goes both ways my friend. I still wonder why one would choose photography as a business when there are so many other way to make a lot more money easier and more predictably. I think most of the people I know who are photographers DO treat it as an artistic endevour more than a business, usually ending in problems. IMO photography is not like a factory, you cant run the machines an extra day and make and extra pile of money, there are a whole lot of variables involved regarding talent, ability, trends, fads, creativity, budgets, fickle clients, etc, etc. We do it because we can't or won't do anything else. Most photographers didn't think about how much $ they could make when they started their business, and if we had listened to the stats we'd find out that the average photgrapher makes somewhere in the area of $25k per year. not per day or per shot or per job. Per year. We put a lot more into our art and or passion than we would if we were selling cheap Chinese tools like my friend. But he is making a lot more money than most of us. And someday he will change his business and make more money. OTOH if you are able to land a high end fashion photography 7 figure contract like Brent suggests I apologize. "Using your quote of the day desk calendar doesn't make you any smarter than the rest of us" -Micky Bill Nov 02, 2009 at 06:29 AM

Steve Ickes Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #21 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments jjsterling wrote: I realize that it may be difficult for some to accept what they do as an artistic endeavor rather than a business. To examine whether they are on track to meet their goals from a non-prejudice position. Potentially having to make adjustments and move in a different direction. Actually my artistic endeavor is a business. Having done this for 15 years, I'm well aware that 10% is artistic and 90% is business. I know that simply because I learned by doing. Have I had to make adjustments? Every step of the way. For me I am hoping to avoid as many pitfalls in what I settle on accomplishing. By learning as much as possible prior to putting my time, energy and dreams towards something that will allow me to reach my goals of enjoyment and reward. My intentions are not to insult you but this all sounds rather naive. I really don't know how old you are, what your level of work experience may be but if it were all as simple as you would like it to be, don't you think we'd all be doing it by now? And if finding a lucrative job were that easy why would anyone simply give you the secret of their success. Heck if I had the answer to your question, I'd write a book about it, sell it for $24.95, hit the lecture circuit, and retire early. But then again, there are already thousands of books on "how to make millions in 10 easy steps..." so why bother? There is no secret formula, magic wand, or shortcut to success. Even the get-rich-quick books will tell you that it still takes initiative and effort. Besides, nothing ever stays the same. Like the stock market, what's lucrative today, might completely tank tomorrow. Basically: do what you love, love what you do, do it honestly and with integrity, do it with conviction, devote your time, effort, and energy to it, and hopefully at the end of the day it will be everything you hoped for. And thank you I do take pleasure in how some will try to re-work what I asked. Well, I'm glad you take pleasure in something, that's a start. I really don't see how anyone "re-worked" what you asked. I think that the problem was in the question itself, as it was written and people have responded accordingly. This is a place to ask questions but not to be spoon-fed. Perhaps trying to bait me for some sport. If you say so. "He is rich or poor according to what he is, not according to what he has." -- Henry Ward Beecher (1813–1887) "There are people so poor that the only thing they have is money." -- Unknown "A short cut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Petrarch "Fame is a vapor, popularity an accident, and riches take wings. Only one thing endures and that is character." -- Horace Greeley "A shortcut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Plutarch Nov 02, 2009 at 04:05 PM

Beowulfenator Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #22 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Steve Ickes wrote: "A short cut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Petrarch "A shortcut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Plutarch Nov 07, 2009 at 10:43 AM

Steve Ickes Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #23 · Profitable Photography Business Market Segments Beowulfenator wrote: Steve Ickes wrote: "A short cut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Petrarch "A shortcut to riches is to subtract from our desires." -- Plutarch Yes, that's what happens when you cut and paste from the Internet. Regardless, I think that point is made. Nov 08, 2009 at 05:55 AM

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