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Archive 2009 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?

  
 
Lotusm50
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p.3 #1 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Alf Beharie wrote:
I'd like to compare it against the Rokkor 58mm f1.2 as its the lens with the most similar performance to the FL 55mm f1.2..



That would be a much more reasonable comparative look. But I would look at them across the entire frame and not just one spot.




Oct 27, 2009 at 05:09 PM
CheshireCat
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p.3 #2 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


gasrocks wrote:
One copy of a cheaper Zeiss lens against one copy of a Canon lens does not prove anything to me about brand superiority. I have an FL 55/1.2 converted to EF mount. It is a great lens, no doubt. But it does not make me want to try out more old Canon lenses nor ignore all the new Zeiss lenses coming out. How old are those Photodo ratings anyways? How many magnificant lenses have been made since that list was produced?


+1

And I find the following comparison more proper:

My CY 50/1.7 vs my EF 50/1.8.

...makes me want to try out more Zeiss glass



Oct 27, 2009 at 06:45 PM
tmessenger
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p.3 #3 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


FL 55/1.2 @ f1.2

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~tmdesign/t1.JPG



Oct 27, 2009 at 09:49 PM
Sam N
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p.3 #4 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Maybe the OP was just getting fed up with all this talk of "3D"... heh.

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Interestingly, regarding design, the most current Z series 50 1.4 shares the exact same optical design with the older CY 50 1.4 AND this CY 50 1.7! So, that basic design goes back to at least 1975. Even before that, you will find that many normal lenses shared this basic 7 element design, though there were exceptions:
http://kmp.bdimitrov.de/lenses/primes/_optics/50f1.4-iii.jpg


While not exactly the same, the current EF 50/1.4 and the old SMC 50/1.4 Tak also use the same basic 7 element planar design. It's just a good and economical way of making a decent, fast, and small lens.



Oct 28, 2009 at 03:59 AM
carstenw
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p.3 #5 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


tmessenger wrote:
FL 55/1.2 @ f1.2

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~tmdesign/t1.jpg


Looks like this copy front-focuses by about 2m.



Oct 28, 2009 at 04:12 AM
pdmphoto
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p.3 #6 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


It's lame to compare a f/1.2 lens to a f/1.7...


Oct 28, 2009 at 04:50 AM
hans98ko
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p.3 #7 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Alf Beharie wrote:
Thats colour noise due to underexposure I'm afraid. I tried to ensure the exposures were the same but this was'nt possible due to changing light conditions.


Very interesting topic with a title like "Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?" done in an "control environment" with changing light.


Base on your evaluation I should go back to school to re-educate myself regarding the effect of lighting on photography, because all those theories they taught in school are wrong. And I don't know why we have to waste so much money and time setting up those equipment in a control indoor environment when we can actually do it next to a door with natural light.



Oct 28, 2009 at 05:46 AM
Lotusm50
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p.3 #8 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


carstenw wrote:
Looks like this copy front-focuses by about 2m.



Very unfortunate. Especially in this case. ;-)




Oct 28, 2009 at 05:46 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #9 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Alf Beharie wrote:
Not really...By reducing the size you are throwing away detail.


No. Downrezzing before showing 100% crops makes those 100% crops sharper.

The FL crops actually look sharper at their original size, which incedentaly was only 11 pixels wider than the Zeiss crops!

11/269 is a 4% linear increase in detail/sharpness - a very noticeable amount when comparing two lenses which are very very close in sharpness anyway.

Thanks for the test, but it's quite misleading. It would be great if you could do it again, ensuring that the frame bounds and magnification of the subject are identical despite the differences in focal length. Then no resizing will be necessary, and we could look at how the lenses actually perform.

BTW, if it's any help, I had a Canon 50 f1.4 that was at least a match for my Contax f1.7. The Canon wasn't as good in the corners at very wide apertures, but it was at least as good in the centre. The Contax 50's are very good lenses, but there are lots of good 50's out there. There will be nothing surprising about a fair test that shows a Canon 50 outperforming a Contax 50. Perhaps we'll see such a fair test here soon... ;-)



Oct 28, 2009 at 06:05 AM
n0b0
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p.3 #10 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


brainiac wrote:
The Canon wasn't as good in the corners at very wide apertures, ...


Does corner sharpness really matter at such a wide aperture? Aren't the corners going to be out of focus anyway?



Oct 28, 2009 at 07:29 AM
kidtexas
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p.3 #11 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


It depends on where you are focusing, and how flat the subject is.

Despite all the criticism of this test, it's quite possible that the Canon is sharper in the center. The CY lens probably has a higher rating because it's sharp across the frame.



Oct 28, 2009 at 07:32 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #12 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Sam N wrote:
Maybe the OP was just getting fed up with all this talk of "3D"... heh.

While not exactly the same, the current EF 50/1.4 and the old SMC 50/1.4 Tak also use the same basic 7 element planar design. It's just a good and economical way of making a decent, fast, and small lens.


The diagram I posted was actually from the Pentax! Here is the one for the CY Zeiss 50 1.7. The various Zeiss 50 1.4's are similar as well.
http://www.gibranstudio.com/z17.jpg



Oct 28, 2009 at 08:16 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #13 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Back to the title/question of the OP, those who prefer Zeiss do appreciate absolute resolution and sharpness but, perhaps more important to some are the other trademark Zeiss qualities such as enhanced micro-contrast and color rendering that perhaps contribute to the elusive Zeiss 3D look. I think that is the 'Myth' that would need to be dispelled. Good luck with that!


Oct 28, 2009 at 08:29 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.3 #14 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


useless test.


Oct 28, 2009 at 08:47 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #15 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


n0b0 wrote:
Does corner sharpness really matter at such a wide aperture? Aren't the corners going to be out of focus anyway?


I'm not making a judgment on that, I'm just saying what I saw. Some people insist on sharp corners, others don't need them. Some images insist on sharp corners, others don't need them.



Oct 28, 2009 at 08:53 AM
Planetwide
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p.3 #16 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


I'd be surprised if a modern manufacturer (Canon, Nikon, Zeiss, Pentax etc...) had a bad 50 at all. It is probably the easiest lens to make, and cheaply too - look at the Canon 50mm F/1.8.

IMHO, the biggest difference is how they 'paint' the image, or what the designers goal was. They are all sharp in the center, but it is the bokeh, colour, edge transition, contrast etc... that make up the differences. And, in this regard, the Zeiss look is definitely different from the Canon's.



Oct 28, 2009 at 09:28 AM
Anden
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p.3 #17 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Alf. To judge these two lenses we need more photos and various subjects.
Could you please do another test? This does not say much unfortunately.


A



Oct 28, 2009 at 09:44 AM
kidtexas
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p.3 #18 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


Andrew Gough wrote:
I'd be surprised if a modern manufacturer (Canon, Nikon, Zeiss, Pentax etc...) had a bad 50 at all. It is probably the easiest lens to make, and cheaply too - look at the Canon 50mm F/1.8.

IMHO, the biggest difference is how they 'paint' the image, or what the designers goal was. They are all sharp in the center, but it is the bokeh, colour, edge transition, contrast etc... that make up the differences. And, in this regard, the Zeiss look is definitely different from the Canon's.


I'd argue with you on the second point. The qualities that seem to make or break a lens in a lot of cases are contrast, sharpness, distortion, and variation of these qualities across the frame. Not bokeh, edge transition, etc. And sharpness is directly related to contrast.

Neither of the lenses in this test are modern designs. Of all the 50's floating around, a lot are *not* modern designs. The 50/1.2 is, the Zeiss ZM 50's are, the Zeiss Z* 50s are, the Leica M 50/1.4 ASPH and 50/2.5 are, the Sigma 50/1.4 is, etc. As far as I know, the Canon 50/1.4, 50/1.8, and numerous other 50's are pretty old designs. Even the ones I listed as 'modern' might just be recycled and touched up older designs, say the Zeiss Z* lenses. To my knowledge, only Leica M 50/1.4 ASPH and the Sigma 50/1.4 are cutting edge designs that aren't based on classic 50 mm designs. The Canon 50/1.2 L might be too - I don't know enough about that lens to say, though it does seem to be under corrected for spherical aberration, hence the noticeable focus shift. I of course could be wrong about other lenses; its not like I've researched them exhaustively.



Oct 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Alf Beharie
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p.3 #19 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


tmessenger wrote:
FL 55/1.2 @ f1.2

http://www.iowatelecom.net/~tmdesign/t1.jpg


Loving the bokeh in this one!



Oct 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Alf Beharie
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p.3 #20 · Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?


hans98ko wrote:
Very interesting topic with a title like "Dispelling the Zeiss superiority myth?" done in an "control environment" with changing light.


Base on your evaluation I should go back to school to re-educate myself regarding the effect of lighting on photography


Yes, apparently that might be a good idea because the lighting conditions have absolutely nothing to do with the results...All four crops are slightly underexposed but the FL crops are more underexposed than the Zeiss crops...In case you are not aware of it that gives an advantage to the Zeiss, yet its still not as sharp as the FL.

Edited on Oct 28, 2009 at 11:01 AM · View previous versions



Oct 28, 2009 at 10:49 AM
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