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Archive 2009 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

AhamB
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p.3 #1 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

What about colour accuracy? This Epson product reaches 92% of sRGB, which is not very much. I imagine that the G1 will have even less.

Oct 16, 2009 at 06:48 PM

mawz
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p.3 #2 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

brainiac wrote:
foto-z wrote:
Didn't anyone notice it is only 800x600? Not even close to a replacement (yet)

One of the things that put me off the G1 is that the EVF is nowhere near sharp enough for critical work.

For critical focus determination? The G1 is better than any 35mm-format SLR OVF already. That and low-light ramping are the G1 EVF's two real advantages right now.

Now I'd love some more resolution, it would be nice to see fine detail without having to zoom in and focusing would get even easier, and it definitely lags which can become bothersome in low light, but having used the G1 as primarily a manual focus platform for 10 months now I'd take it over any 35mm SLR VF on the market today for determining critical focus.

Edited on Oct 16, 2009 at 08:01 PM · View previous versions

Oct 16, 2009 at 07:39 PM

mawz
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p.3 #3 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

AhamB wrote:
What about colour accuracy? This Epson product reaches 92% of sRGB, which is not very much. I imagine that the G1 will have even less.

G1 is NTSC Gamut, the colour in the EVF sucks horribly. One reason why I often just run it in B&W.

Oct 16, 2009 at 07:40 PM

U.C.
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p.3 #4 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

mawz wrote:
AhamB wrote:
What about colour accuracy? This Epson product reaches 92% of sRGB, which is not very much. I imagine that the G1 will have even less.

G1 is NTSC Gamut, the colour in the EVF sucks horribly. One reason why I often just run it in B&W.
NTSC as in Never The Same Colour? Sorry, couldn't leave the opportunity.

Oct 16, 2009 at 07:56 PM

mawz
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p.3 #5 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

U.C. wrote:
mawz wrote:
G1 is NTSC Gamut, the colour in the EVF sucks horribly. One reason why I often just run it in B&W.
NTSC as in Never The Same Colour? Sorry, couldn't leave the opportunity.

No apologies needed. The colour in the EVF on the G1 really is bad. It's great for framing or focusing and really nice in B&W, but the colour display is so 1998.

Oct 16, 2009 at 08:03 PM

Graham Mitchell
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p.3 #6 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

mawz wrote:
For critical focus determination? The G1 is better than any 35mm-format SLR OVF already.

I find that very hard to believe. Have you compared it to a Sony A900 for example? (I had a look through one recently - it was quite good but of course I am used to a 6x6 WLF and it still doesn't come close

) Sometimes when you are shooting a face, one eye can be in focus and the other one out, for example. You need to see the crispness of eyelashes etc to judge to correct focus. This shot is not wide open but still there is one eye in focus and the other is out. Not easy to tell in this 800 x 600 image:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Oct 16, 2009 at 08:35 PM

dasrocket
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p.3 #7 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I wend to agree. The resolution on the G1 EVF is not clear enough for precise focusing. The mag nification is a big help, but it's not enough in many situations.

Still, we are discussing current technology, when the OP stated "the future".
IMHO, it is safe to say that once R&D gets poured into this, EVFs will progress very rapidly -the mp war is settling down, we need new justification for upgrades

Oct 16, 2009 at 10:13 PM

Jonas B
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p.3 #8 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

foto-z wrote:
(...)This shot is not wide open but still there is one eye in focus and the other is out. Not easy to tell in this 800 x 600 image:

No it isn't easy to tell. It's the same with the G1 EVF, not easy to tell. But then you press the enlargement button and voila, the details are viewed as if it was 8000x6000 instead and then it you can tell - and better than with the A900 viewfinder.

That's how it is. For studio work it is fast enough, in the dark it is too grainy and slow. Colors, contrast and dynamic range all need to be improved.

This is not a post for or against EVF. I believe they are the future. I know they already are better than many posters here seem to think. They (the EVFs that is) need to improve, there will probably be optical viewfinders for sports and other applications for a long time but I'm pretty sure most of us will use EVFs in a not too distant future.

Oct 16, 2009 at 10:42 PM

Graham Mitchell
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p.3 #9 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Jonas B wrote:

No it isn't easy to tell. It's the same with the G1 EVF, not easy to tell. But then you press the enlargement button and voila, the details are viewed as if it was 8000x6000 instead and then it you can tell - and better than with the A900 viewfinder.

How on earth do you find the time to do that with a model who is constantly moving? For still life, architecture, etc I imagine this works well, but not for moving subjects. I would also like to keep an eye on the whole frame while I'm shooting.

Oct 16, 2009 at 10:49 PM

Jonas B
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p.3 #10 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

foto-z wrote:
Jonas B wrote:

No it isn't easy to tell. It's the same with the G1 EVF, not easy to tell. But then you press the enlargement button and voila, the details are viewed as if it was 8000x6000 instead and then it you can tell - and better than with the A900 viewfinder.

How on earth do you find the time to do that with a model who is constantly moving? For still life, architecture, etc I imagine this works well, but not for moving subjects. I would also like to keep an eye on the whole frame while I'm shooting.

Oh my. The glass is not filled, I know.
In the next model there might be a part of the image enlarged only while the borders and a bit more show the real size of the surrounding parts.
And hey, with a model constantly moving you will get wrong eye in focus also with an A900.

Oct 16, 2009 at 11:08 PM

mawz
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p.3 #11 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

foto-z wrote:
mawz wrote:
For critical focus determination? The G1 is better than any 35mm-format SLR OVF already.

I find that very hard to believe. Have you compared it to a Sony A900 for example? (I had a look through one recently - it was quite good but of course I am used to a 6x6 WLF and it still doesn't come close

) Sometimes when you are shooting a face, one eye can be in focus and the other one out, for example. You need to see the crispness of eyelashes etc to judge to correct focus. This shot is not wide open but still there is one eye in focus and the other is out. Not easy to tell in this 800 x 600 image:

Yep, I have compared it to an A900 in fact and the G1 won on that specific front (the A900 finder was overall better, it's a very, very nice finder and for general use I'd take it over the G1). It's extremely easy to see exactly what's in focus even at 800x600. It's actually hard to describe since there's two interactions that allow you to see focus, one is just seeing stuff which is sharp and the second is an aliasing pattern that is obvious where fine detail comes into focus. The latter is what makes the real difference. The fact you're seeing working DoF (assuming adapted lenses) without a brightness falloff from stopping down is a major win. If it's sharp in the EVF, it's sharp in the image. I actually don't use the magnifier as much as I'd thought I would.

It's not up to my 645 though. Nor a 6x6 WLF which is going to stomp over any 35mm-sized finder (the G1 finder is about the same size as a 5D finder, but 100%)

Edited on Oct 16, 2009 at 11:21 PM · View previous versions

Oct 16, 2009 at 11:14 PM

mawz
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p.3 #12 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

foto-z wrote:
Jonas B wrote:

No it isn't easy to tell. It's the same with the G1 EVF, not easy to tell. But then you press the enlargement button and voila, the details are viewed as if it was 8000x6000 instead and then it you can tell - and better than with the A900 viewfinder.

How on earth do you find the time to do that with a model who is constantly moving? For still life, architecture, etc I imagine this works well, but not for moving subjects. I would also like to keep an eye on the whole frame while I'm shooting.

The biggest problem with shooting a model that's moving is not nailing the focus, its the combination of viewfinder and shutter lag which makes the G1 just enough less responsive than a good SLR for you to notice in your hit ratio.

I can see the eye come into focus on the G1, but my chances of nailing the shot go down because I'm seeing what happened a fraction of a second ago. This is a bigger problem in low light because the framerate in the G1's EVF drops as the display uses more amplification.

It ain't anywhere near perfect. But resolution is not the primary issue with a G1-grade EVF.

Oct 16, 2009 at 11:18 PM

Graham Mitchell
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p.3 #13 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Jonas B wrote:

And hey, with a model constantly moving you will get wrong eye in focus also with an A900.

The idea is that you can follow her eyes as she moves and judge focus easily all the time. I can imagine that a small focus confirmation display could help or some other electronic aid, which would make this a workable solution. Anyway, each to their own and we all shoot different subjects and scenes.

Oct 16, 2009 at 11:19 PM

Jonas B
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p.3 #14 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

foto-z wrote:
Jonas B wrote:

And hey, with a model constantly moving you will get wrong eye in focus also with an A900.

The idea is that you can follow her eyes as she moves and judge focus easily all the time. I can imagine that a small focus confirmation display could help or some other electronic aid, which would make this a workable solution. Anyway, each to their own and we all shoot different subjects and scenes.

Of course, and of course we do. I don't have the G1 anymore and now use a 5DMkII instead. I also like optical viewfinders better than the current electronic ones, including the Panasonic thing.

They already have face detection. It is easy to imageine a future version where the detected, or locked, head is enlarged only.

All I'm saying is that I'm certain the future belongs to EVFs, and I can see in this thread people having opinions on things they haven't tried.

I think we can agree about a lot of things here. One, for example, is the increasing demands on the EVF as the sensor size increases. I mean, there is no problems getting both eyes well within the DOF on the 4/3 sensor.

regards, /Jonas

Oct 17, 2009 at 12:05 AM

Daniel Buck
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p.3 #15 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

my 8x10 doesn't have a mirror, and has a nice big viewfinder too

no face detection though

Oct 17, 2009 at 03:28 AM

sav1977
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p.3 #16 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Epson, eh?

EVF is a joke.

Oct 17, 2009 at 03:31 AM

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p.3 #17 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I'm with Graham. Real photographers can monitor changing composition and track focus manually. It's necessary with people. The G1 finder makes this just about impossible in many situations. It lags, and 800x600 isn't sharp enough, despite the help from moire effects and despite the annoying and delaying magnification process. If you only shoot things which don't move, and never use really wide apertures the G1 is fine. Otherwise it feels quite obstructive.

Oct 17, 2009 at 10:28 AM

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p.3 #18 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I'm very sceptical to the term "real photographers", first of all, not all movement can be anticipated/monitored, secondly, using the term is so god damned ken rockwelly it makes me weep.

that said:

I think EVFs have a real way to go still, but I have no doubt that they will be better, much better, but bronica etrsi-large, sharp, contrasty-good? (that is my nicest viewfinder :P), hard to tell.

Oct 17, 2009 at 11:33 AM

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p.3 #19 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I should have put a smiley by 'real photographers'. I used the term with a little irony. There are many 'real photographers' who shoot architecture and never worry about moving subjects. There is still an old-fashioned notion that imitating Henri Cartier-Bresson (including camera choice) is the only way to be a 'real photographer'. In short, I was joking, although for many, the ability to shoot very fast by simultaneously tracking focus and composition is the test of how good a viewfinder is. I am one such.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Oct 17, 2009 at 11:48 AM

mawz
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p.3 #20 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

brainiac wrote:
I'm with Graham. Real photographers can monitor changing composition and track focus manually. It's necessary with people. The G1 finder makes this just about impossible in many situations. It lags, and 800x600 isn't sharp enough, despite the help from moire effects and despite the annoying and delaying magnification process. If you only shoot things which don't move, and never use really wide apertures the G1 is fine. Otherwise it feels quite obstructive.

Note I do shoot stuff that moves and pretty much only use wide apertures with the G1. Lag is an issue, resolution simply is not in practice. The only issues I've had with getting accurate focus in the G1 finder without magnification have been with slower wide-angles (just too much DoF).

My primary shooting environment for the G1 these days is in bars, primarily in low-light. Shooting people. Frankly, very similar stuff to what you do, just slightly better light. My biggest problems are the bit of VF lag and the ISO 3200 limit on the G1 (I tend to run out of shutter speed before anything else).

Oct 17, 2009 at 12:10 PM

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