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Archive 2009 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

EOS20
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p.1 #1 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Epson have just announced that they have started mass producing Electronic viewfinders which they claim has the same resolution and fidelity required to fully replace optical viewfinders on digital SLRs. Here's the news story:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0910/09101501epsonhtpspanel.asp

I thought it would be interesting to discuss the future of the electronic viewfinder, and the possibility of optical viewfinders becoming replaced, or becoming a bit of a niche as electronic viewfinders gain popularity, and the technology gets better.

What are your thoughts about optical viewfinders replacing the traditional optical viewfinder and mirror setup on SLR cameras?

Do you think the major players in the Market (Canon, Nikon, Sony) will also start offering electronic viewfinder cameras in the near future?

And finally, would you all miss the traditional optical viewfinder if the manufacturers could get the electronic viewfinders to the level where your getting the same resolution as a traditional viewfinder without compromises such as low light lag, and issues when shooting fast moving objects and panning (Which Epson claim they have overcome).

Oct 15, 2009 at 12:33 PM

Eric Gottesman
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p.1 #2 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

If looking into an electronic viewfinder would be the same as an optical one and have the added ability of 5X and 10X magnification on command, I'm all in. 100% viewing is a must as well.

Oct 15, 2009 at 12:38 PM

john_edwards
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p.1 #3 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Great idea, we could peep the pixels before they are born.

Oct 15, 2009 at 01:10 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #4 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Agree with the above. Seems like it is just a matter of time before the optical finder will be completely replaced.

Oct 15, 2009 at 01:13 PM

Spyro P.
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p.1 #5 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Yep, good thing, groundbreaking. Throw the mirror out, add EVF and you can potentially have a smaller, quieter camera, smaller lenses and unlimited VF brightness, size and resolution. And there is no reason to give up any of the advantages of the DSLR like large sensor, high iso, TTL viewing, fps, fast AF, video.

edit: actually with the current technology a mirrorless design might present some limitations compared to DSLRs. If the lens sits too close to the sensor, at the moment it means a CCD must be used, which means no video and no super-high iso.

Edited on Oct 15, 2009 at 01:40 PM · View previous versions

Oct 15, 2009 at 01:32 PM

telyt
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p.1 #6 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Eric Gottesman wrote:
If looking into an electronic viewfinder would be the same as an optical one and have the added ability of 5X and 10X magnification on command, I'm all in. 100% viewing is a must as well.

I'd be delighted with this too. It would also allow contrast-detect AF at any point in the picture area instead of the phase-detect kludge systems presently in use. I suspect that this development is why Leica cancelled the R10 project. A camera with an electronic viewfinder could have a much shorter mount register allowing a huge variety of legacy lenses to be fitted with a simple adapter: Konica, Minolta MD, Canon FD, whatever...

Oct 15, 2009 at 01:40 PM

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p.1 #7 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Spyro P. wrote:
Yep, good thing, groundbreaking. Throw the mirror out, add EVF and you can potentially have a smaller, quieter camera, smaller lenses and unlimited VF brightness, size and resolution. And there is no reason to give up any of the advantages of the DSLR like large sensor, high iso, TTL viewing, fps, fast AF, video.

edit: actually with the current technology a mirrorless design might present some limitations compared to DSLRs. If the lens sits too close to the sensor, at the moment it means a CCD must be used, which means no video and no super-high iso.

Isn't Sony close to a CMOS with capability for close sensor-lens tech?

I would love a mirrorless, viewfinderhouse-less, EVF-camera sized like a FE. How fast could you make AF though? For sports-shooters? And do you guys think that EVFs ever will be as fast/accurate/lag-less as an optical finder?

Oct 15, 2009 at 01:49 PM

Jonas B
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p.1 #8 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Isn't there a thread about µ4/3 somewhere on page 1...

The G1 and GH1 pretty much do everything you listed above. The technique isn't really there yet; there is a shutter lag and noise when the light goes down (really down, that is). Give it some time and we'll all have great LIVE cameras.

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:05 PM

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p.1 #9 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I am certain the technology will mature to EVFs better than OVFs. The advantages are in so many levels and viewing through the G1 has really opened my eyes to the viability of the idea -and this really was the first serious commitment to an EVF.
Once the physical assembly of a mirror box is not there, the actual location of the VF is also flexible and design and purpose driven. Interesting

I am sure once R&D is poured into this train of thought a lot of new ideas will become viable solutions to AF, LV and so on. With the OVF out of the way, the main cost difference between crop and FF will be the chip, which may make FF the standard format again.

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:09 PM

ulrikft
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p.1 #10 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

A 100% 1.0x sized EVF in the upper left corner of a nikon fe-sized/built body, just without the mirror hump.. Delicious!

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:19 PM

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p.1 #11 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I could see some advantages of a electronic viewfinder over a optical viewfinder, these would include:

*Exposure simulation through the viewfinder.
*Being able to magnify the viewfinder for manual focusing.
*The ability to select different viewfinder grids.
*Having a night vision mode so you can see what your doing when shooting at night.
*Being able to display more info on the viewfinder (eg. electronic spirit level).
*The ability to use the viewfinder when shooting video.

And if the manufacturers get rid of the mirror and mechanical shutter and replace it with a electronic shutter, imagine what kind of frame rates could be achieved!

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:30 PM

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p.1 #12 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I remember seeing the Nikon patent for a mirrorless camera design:

http://www.creativemayhem.com.au/?p=647

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:44 PM

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p.1 #13 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

A mirrorless design in a smaller and lighter package would be great news. But for me the camera would have to be FF or at least 1.33x. Then I would be happy, if the IQ would be close to the current cameras. But, that would make something like a M9 without rangefinder but with a EVF. Now, that would be cool.

Oct 15, 2009 at 02:57 PM

ulrikft
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p.1 #14 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I wonder how a fullframe, EVF-camera would look, a thumbweel on the back for aperture/shutter, canon style, large, with a 100% zoom button in the middle, nikon style, a small thumb weel on top, by the shutter, for EVF-zoom (or would this look freakish? :P ), a normal wheel in front for aperture/shutter, large, high res screen on the back, viewfinder upper left corner, 1.0x, 100%, maybe a iso/wb/quality-wheel by the shutter.

like this? :P three minute google sketchup model

http://ulrikft.smugmug.com/photos/681697536_oHBAL-L.png

Oct 15, 2009 at 03:11 PM

weezintrumpete
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p.1 #15 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I'm all for this! I do love my 5D viewfinder but if we can get an EVF that is just as good (and big) or better, great!

Oct 15, 2009 at 03:33 PM

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p.1 #16 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

ulrikft wrote:
I wonder how a fullframe, EVF-camera would look, a thumbweel on the back for aperture/shutter, canon style, large, with a 100% zoom button in the middle, nikon style, a small thumb weel on top, by the shutter, for EVF-zoom (or would this look freakish? :P ), a normal wheel in front for aperture/shutter, large, high res screen on the back, viewfinder upper left corner, 1.0x, 100%, maybe a iso/wb/quality-wheel by the shutter.

like this? :P three minute google sketchup model

http://ulrikft.smugmug.com/photos/681697536_oHBAL-L.png

How about a Hasselblad 500 style EVF camera!

Oct 15, 2009 at 04:10 PM

Sam N
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p.1 #17 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

An EVF that's just as good as the best optical finders is a LONG way off... especially if you consider optical RF/VFs like the one in the Zeiss Ikon.

It seems there are 4 ways to solve the "mirror problem" (in order of desirability IMO)
1) Scale focus and use an external viewfinder to frame... obviously this is far from ideal and only really works with slower wider lenses
2) Have a viewing screen that can be replaced with the film / sensor. This is what large format cameras do. You view the scene upside-down and it's not very quick.
3) Use an advanced EVF like the G1/GH1's. These are actually pretty impressive, but they still haven't been able to build them into tiny cameras like the GF1. The GF1's accessory EVF is not nearly as good.
4) Use an optical VF (optionally with RF) that either zooms or has framelines. Cameras like the Contax G, Leica M, and dozens of others do this. The big disadvantages are parallax error, the inability to shoot very close up, and the fact that you can only use certain focal lengths natively.

With option 4, live-view could solve the close-up shooting problem. As for the limited focal lengths, I rarely use anything longer than 135mm anyway.

I want someone to innovate the optical RF with:
- decent metering and other readouts
- digitally projected framelines that could zoom and always minimize parallax error
- live-view for close-ups or angled shooting

Oct 15, 2009 at 04:28 PM

TeamSK jay
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p.1 #18 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I think the real take-away here is that a major EVF announcement will be made in the next 30 days. You don't go into large scale production without a ready customer.

It could be a new accessory EVF for micro 4/3 or a new camera, perhaps Samsung/Pentax.

Oct 15, 2009 at 04:39 PM

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p.1 #19 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

TeamSK jay wrote:
I think the real take-away here is that a major EVF announcement will be made in the next 30 days. You don't go into large scale production without a ready customer.

It could be a new accessory EVF for micro 4/3 or a new camera, perhaps Samsung/Pentax.

Samsung did say they were developing a new hybrid camera system based around a APS-C sensor and EVF at PMA earlier this year, and the first camera would be available in the second half of this year. Here's the news article:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030201samsungnxsystem.asp

Oct 15, 2009 at 05:34 PM

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p.1 #20 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

+1 on this. This new EVF is implemented somewhere, at least at a stage that it can be announced.

Sam, except for option 3, which IMO is the most likely future here, the rest are handicapped in emulating old VF methods. A screen with the pixel density of the G1 but 50% larger area would really give OVF's a run for their money...

Oct 15, 2009 at 05:44 PM

Sam N
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p.1 #21 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I agree that a bigger version of the G1's EVF would be very nice, but still nowhere near as good as a quality OVF.

I don't think of it as emulating old VF methods. The purpose of all viewfinders is to compose an image. It seems natural to use optics/glass to do so since the camera uses optics as well....

Edit: 700th post. yay.

Oct 15, 2009 at 10:18 PM

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p.1 #22 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Apparently the new technology from the Epson EVF is meant to be better then the screen found on the G1. It will be interesting to see the new EVF when it's available in a camera (High possibility it will be on one of the Samsung NX cameras).

Remember, this is only the first generation of EVF interchangeable lens cameras, Imagine what the technology will be like in about 5 years from now! Samsung predicts that 25% of the market will be EVF cameras by 2012!

Congrats on your 700th post Sam!

Oct 16, 2009 at 03:55 AM

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p.1 #23 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

Sam N wrote:
An EVF that's just as good as the best optical finders is a LONG way off... especially if you consider optical RF/VFs like the one in the Zeiss Ikon.

I have an Ikon and its very nice to have a look through it, but I think its a bit overrated as a feature. Personally I just dont think it makes a significant difference in the bottom line, I've used tremendously crappy VFs in the past for manual focusing like the Canon 400D and although it sucked, in the end I simply got used to it. I'd much rather have the ability to see through the lens, but do away with the clunkiness of the mirror and put up with an EVF which is not so great. These things improve pretty quickly, its just electronics.

Edited on Oct 16, 2009 at 04:44 AM · View previous versions

Oct 16, 2009 at 04:06 AM

TeamSK jay
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p.1 #24 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

I'm really looking forward to a 1.5x EVF camera that will take M mount. A ZM 18 and ZM 50/1.5 would be a sweet combo. Yeah, a bigger sensor would be nice but not for today's price. I'd rather have a reasonable size at an affordable price today and then upgrade the body in a few years. At least 1.5x keeps wide angle lenses in the wide angle category and turns those great 50's into very nice short teles.

I too think it is going to be the Samsung NX and at the latest it will be announced first week in Nov. with delivery in December. More likely it will be announced next week. Regardless it will be shipping for the holidays.

Oct 16, 2009 at 04:26 AM

Spyro P.
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p.1 #25 · Electronic Viewfinders - The way of the future?

TeamSK jay wrote:
I'm really looking forward to a 1.5x EVF camera that will take M mount. A ZM 18 and ZM 50/1.5 would be a sweet combo.

Again my personal opinion: I dont mind crop cameras but I dont like chasing my tail with legacy lenses and crop factors. I'd much rather if they settled in one size sensor, I dont care if its 1.3x, 1.5x or 2x or whatever, and then zeiss, voigtlander and leica designed smaller lenses dedicated for that size sensor. Just like Olympus did with the pancake m4:3 lenses, but with proper focusing rings, infinity stop, distance and hyperfocal markings. Proper old school lenses, just smaller image circle and even smaller size to match the camera. Also, and this is very important, this way you can have larger apertures at every focal length. The ZM 18mm that you mentioned is nice when it is 18mm, but when it is "converted" to a 28 or 35 mm field of view, the f4 maximum aperture simply doesnt cut it, because in that 28-35 league it competes with f1.4-f2.8 lenses. Makes you wonder if its worth bothering with a system like that and in the end it makes you jump to a proper rangefinder or full frame DSLR to gain access to the optimum combinations of focal lengths and apertures.

Oct 16, 2009 at 04:42 AM


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