I think we can all be thankful that people like Paul Buff and John Ricard participating in this forum, this is really is a great source of information. I know no other manufacturer how willing to go to forums where thy can get hot and cold, I just find it a brave thing to do.
The PLM seems to be a great product with a very affordable price it is so affordable that it is OK to buy it just for trying.
I would get the biggest silver one (maybe two) with diffuser, question that as a middle european (Hungary) how can buy it? Is the switzerland distribution already works or can I order it straight from US (using paypal or something like that).
Will it cost a lot more if I buy it here in Europe (which is sorrily a typical practice here).
Sorrily all my strobes has a 7mm umbrella attachment hole, (Aurora korean and chinese) but the chinese strobes can be transformed I thing to accept the 8mm shaft
E-Vener wrote:
Sometime in the next week or two I'll take it into a big studio and shot some tests with the PLM, The Bron system and the Profoto.
E-vener, I was looking for some information about para umbrellas and octabank, and I've found that there are diferents types: 180cm(5,9"), 220cm(7,2"), white inside and silver inside.....could you tell me please which one you have used and which are their main diference.
I'm thinking about buying one, and even if I'll wait to see your test, I just can figure that I would prefer the 220cm instead of the 180cm, but I can't think about picking the white or the silver one.
I thought that as both are parabolic the fact that they are silver or white make no diference...but I must be wrong, right?
E-Vener wrote:
Sad news. Unfortunately Markus Klinko and his partner Indrani just filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy:
Wow, not a good sign for folks who want to do high-end location productions!
One more step toward a micro-stock business model, with minimum capital investment, and the hope to make enough to pay for your cell phone while living in mom's basement.
I hope they are able to continue working together after the bancruptcy. Definitely some great work from those two over the years!
silver is more reflective, so you'll likely see a more intense fall off pattern and greater efficiency in throwing the light forward. A soft white material scatters the light more.
Panchoskywalke wrote:
I thought that as both are parabolic the fact that they are silver or white make no diference...but I must be wrong, right?
Right, you are very wrong. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. )
Pancho,
Indeed, silver being more reflective than white will disperse light less making more "focused". It will also be more efficient reflector and produce a higher output. More importantly however will be the "quality" or "look" of the light, which will be more contrasty and crisp than the white, which disperse slight more. The most obvious difference will also be in the spectral highlight areas on your subject; these areas are a direct reflection of the light source and will be just as shiny as silver is from white. Excellent for bringing out the highlights of items like fur, fabric and body oils.
Another advantage of the silver reflector is that often a white diffusion sock or panel can be used to reduce specularity and increase dispersion of the modifier. The reverse cannot be accomplished without lining the internal reflector.
Having read the PDF of the suit that has been filed against them it is pretty obvious that their financial situation is a result of decisions they made over a long period of time. They've been extremely over-extended and deep in debt since before 2007 and they seem to have just kept digging the hole deeper. Then they tried to hide their assets from their prime lender by setting up a shell company - -and not doing it very well --same addresses even the same lawyer.
There will always be a market for high end , high production value work. I know more than a few people doing this who are not in their boat, or in Annie Leibovitz's similar but different dire financial straits.
It was also interesting to read who they are sponsored by: Broncolor, Kodak-Leaf, Fujifilm USA.
You also have to wonder how much they are owed by their clients orand how much of their high visibility work (and not just the editorial work) was done for either nothing (just the glory) or for less than the production costs.
no matter end of the photography market you are in you need to take care of the business aspects. the photography side is more fun but you have to pay attention to business.
You also have to hold on to and protect your copyrights as vigorously as you can. Microstock, if not a complete dead end, is a short term game.
One more step toward a micro-stock business model, with minimum capital investment, and the hope to make enough to pay for your cell phone while living in mom's basement.
Istock just reported $200 million in sales. I'm in very little position to criticize because my creative agency uses istock, though primarily for little things like a shot of a tree or something we need to add to a comp. We go to Getty when we need an important primary image. I am also with Getty as a photog, and things have been good on that end. Photo Editors are still buying a good deal of rights-managed photography, which keeps me optimistic.
Also sad to hear about Markus Klinko. Love their work. They're schooled in photography, but not in the business of turning the money they've earned into income streams.
Hi all,
I am a long time reader of this forum, and this is my first post here.
To better understand who I am: amateur (but not novice) , currently shoot with Canon 5D Mark II with Canon 580EX flashes. The only light modifiers I ever used are OmniBounce and my own modifications of Chuck Gardner's flash diffuser.
I can't afford real studio equipment because I would use it very rarely, do not have space at home, and prefer fast strobist style setups.
If you are still reading, then here are my questions regarding 64" silver PLM I received yesterday:
1) I managed to fill it with single 580EX (using wide panel and OmniBounce), and am getting satisfactory (to my taste) evenness of light except one exception: I am getting slightly darker area in the center. I have a feeling that this might be caused by flash or bracket preventing enough light from umbrella center. I would expect that with big strobe and 7" reflector this effect should be much more pronounced than in my case. So, do you see something similar with strobes? The only way to avoid this is to move flash head slightly out to narrow the beam of light. Is this what you do?
2) Umbrella I've got has multiple black marks and stains on silver surface. First I though this is grease, but this might be surface defect. Also, the white diffuser has a round rust mark near one of mount rings. Both these defects should not really affect the quality of light, but this is my first umbrella ever, and what do you think, is this normal, or I have to ask for replacement?
3) how would you clean silver PLM umbrella and white diffuser fabrics?
kosulin wrote:
1) I managed to fill it with single 580EX (using wide panel and OmniBounce), and am getting satisfactory (to my taste) evenness of light except one exception: I am getting slightly darker area in the center. I have a feeling that this might be caused by flash or bracket preventing enough light from umbrella center. I would expect that with big strobe and 7" reflector this effect should be much more pronounced than in my case. So, do you see something similar with strobes? The only way to avoid this is to move flash head slightly out to narrow the beam of light. Is this what you do?...Show more →
Kosulin,
You're getting "satisfactory" results because you don't have a better light source to compare it too. And because any larger modifier will produce a broader light than small light source speedlight by itself or even with a OmniBounce or panel.
That being said, the darker center is most likely a manifestation of the fact you are not making full use of the parabolic design of the PLM and further evidence that the fresnel of the speedlight is not able to fill the box. I suspect most of the energy is coming predominantly from the center of the reflector and creating a shadow from your flash unit. If you were to use a bare bulb flash tube (found in studio strobes or Quantum flashes), light would eminate omnidirectionally to fill the box, make use of the parabolic design to collimate the light and eliminate hot spots and shadows produced by your highly directional light source.
In many ways parabolic reflectors don't simply even out the light but rather magnify and direct the eveness of the light source itself. Speedlights are not a very good match with parabolic reflectors. To get the most out of this modifier you will need to use a omnidirectional light source.
kosulin wrote:
Hi all,
I am a long time reader of this forum, and this is my first post here.
To better understand who I am: amateur (but not novice) , currently shoot with Canon 5D Mark II with Canon 580EX flashes. The only light modifiers I ever used are OmniBounce and my own modifications of Chuck Gardner's flash diffuser.
I can't afford real studio equipment because I would use it very rarely, do not have space at home, and prefer fast strobist style setups.
If you are still reading, then here are my questions regarding 64" silver PLM I received yesterday:
1) I managed to fill it with single 580EX (using wide panel and OmniBounce), and am getting satisfactory (to my taste) evenness of light except one exception: I am getting slightly darker area in the center. I have a feeling that this might be caused by flash or bracket preventing enough light from umbrella center. I would expect that with big strobe and 7" reflector this effect should be much more pronounced than in my case. So, do you see something similar with strobes? The only way to avoid this is to move flash head slightly out to narrow the beam of light. Is this what you do?
2) Umbrella I've got has multiple black marks and stains on silver surface. First I though this is grease, but this might be surface defect. Also, the white diffuser has a round rust mark near one of mount rings. Both these defects should not really affect the quality of light, but this is my first umbrella ever, and what do you think, is this normal, or I have to ask for replacement?
3) how would you clean silver PLM umbrella and white diffuser fabrics?...Show more →
Very good observations.
Regarding the slightly dark center of the pattern, you are correct. The vendor deviated slightly from the approved samples in the shape of the fabric. As a result, the optimal focal point of the flashtube is slightly forward of the front edge of the umbrella. Moving the flash forward about three inches will eliminate the slightly dark center, narrow the pattern and increase the output.
Next week I will be doing a large series of test shots at different flashtube positions etc. Preliminary, with the flashtube parallel to the front surface I am seeing a fairly wide pattern with about a 3/10f broad darkening of the center. (By contrast, my $180 Elinchrom sports reflector mounted on Elinchrom RX600 has a very pronounced dark center of about 2/3f, for what that's worth).
Moving the flashtube out about 4" from the umbrella front increases the output about 3/4f and eliminates the dark center entirely. With the 7" PLM reflector, there is still no side spill in this position.
As for the spots on the silver fabric, this is a common problem with this type of silver fabric. We saw some of this when the production PLMs came in. It doesn't affect performance at all, and we are trying to cull out any that have serious blemishes. I doubt if they can be removed by cleaning.
As for the rust spots you mentioned, we have not seen this before. If you are bothered by the fabric flaws we will certainly be happy to replace them for you.
Wow, Paul's post above killed this thread cold for over a day.
Here's my read-
* This is potentially good for some people buying PLMs to use with Elinchrom RX/BX/Ranger/Quadra/etc, because Elinchrom strobes have a curved back plate to focus more light forward. This creates a hotter centre than the PCB strobes that the PLM's were designed for. PLM's with a manufacturing flaw that causes a 3/10 f darker centre with PCB strobes, may actually be more ideal for Elinchrom users seeking a smooth even light.
* Those using PCB strobes with the PLM reflector, and the silver or white PLM's WITHOUT the front diffusers, are uneffected.
* People using PCB strobes who also bought the front white diffusers, are worst off, because trying to move the strobe 4" back with the front diffuser in place, presumably won't work.
E-Vener wrote:
a second test. This time with an Elinchrom Quadra head @ 400 w/s. My guess is that the distance from the edge of the PLM to the front of that house is roughly 70 feet. http://www.ellisvener.com/data/web/PLM_test2.jpg
how do u mount the PLM to quadra, aren't they 7mm shaft?
shoebox9 wrote:
Wow, Paul's post above killed this thread cold for over a day.
Here's my read-
* This is potentially good for some people buying PLMs to use with Elinchrom RX/BX/Ranger/Quadra/etc, because Elinchrom strobes have a curved back plate to focus more light forward. This creates a hotter centre than the PCB strobes that the PLM's were designed for. PLM's with a manufacturing flaw that causes a 3/10 f darker centre with PCB strobes, may actually be more ideal for Elinchrom users seeking a smooth even light.
* Those using PCB strobes with the PLM reflector, and the silver or white PLM's WITHOUT the front diffusers, are uneffected.
* People using PCB strobes who also bought the front white diffusers, are worst off, because trying to move the strobe 4" back with the front diffuser in place, presumably won't work....Show more →
Sorry - wrong on every count - no offense.
The slightly dark center is not a function of the angle emitted by the flash and it's sub reflector - it's a function of the angle of the PLM fabric relative to the distance from the source. So I wouldn't expect any change in the pattern from an Elinchrom VS a bare bulb. You'll have less light at the edges of the PLM fabric. but the projected pattern should be approximately the same.
This also applies to using the PLM reflector VS bare bulb (AB/WL have a flat back plate, so the angle of emission is about 210° VS about 170° with the 7" PLM reflector.)
The position of the source, when using the white front diffuser has no dark center. The physics are entirely different and the beam is very wide with no anomalies.
Though a slight technical flaw, it shouldn't cause any significant problems in actual use - just position the flashtube slightly forward of the umbrella edge. The 7" PLM will still block any side spill. I am refining the umbrella curve as we speak, but it will be probably three months before any changes show up on production units.
It's very hard to translate a CAD design to fabric and bent rods. It's also difficult because of the segmented shape - it becomes a calculate - build - test deal. Then you have to hope the vendor exactly repeats the fabric shape, sewing and stretch factor between sample and production. Believe me, trying to control and communicate all this to a Chinese vendor is especially difficult.
I'l love to build this in America but there simply aren't any umbrella factories left and the cost would triple. To try to build it in our factory would involve setting up sewing machines and hiring a very-difficult-to-find product engineer/supervisor and non-existent US sewing workers.
As a note, I believe every test shot published here is positioned such that it has a broad center darkening of about 3/10f . . . this is pretty hard to see in typical shots and is likely discernible to the eye only when shooting against a flat wall or seamless.
I have the EL 190cm indirect octa and just wonder what advantages I would get for a PLM?
My gut feeling that in the studio is that it would be that greatly different from what I get now without the diffuser, sure the PLM light would be more focused and as a result I will need less power.
Outside is where I guess the PLM will have it's advantages for me. If I was to shoot, say for example, a car and wanted a large light source to light the scene, the power advantage of the more focused light will be useful and the weight savings will be an advantage.
Am I on the right track?
I was just thinking that it should not take too much effort to adapt my EL Ringflash to take a centre mounted umbrella. I assume that this would be a good light source when using the PLM?
el_hoppy wrote:
I have the EL 190cm indirect octa and just wonder what advantages I would get for a PLM?
If you mean both with front difuser panels, then the obvious advantages are weight (ie when used up high), outdoor location speed, and being able to treat the PLM's as disposables, if there is damage during a location shoot.
Don't think the light will be the same though. Did you notice a couple of pages back, that the "with PLM" pic had the reflection of the PLM, complete with (dark) strobe, in the middle of the subject's forehead? This is typical of brolly boxes, as opposed to SB's where the strobe is inside or at the back.
If your subject's skin is partially like a mirror (more apparent with contolled studio lighting) then the type of modifer you use makes a big difference to the reflection patterns on their face/forehead.
Calbeee wrote: E-Vener wrote:
a second test. This time with an Elinchrom Quadra head @ 400 w/s. My guess is that the distance from the edge of the PLM to the front of that house is roughly 70 feet.
how do u mount the PLM to quadra, aren't they 7mm shaft?
The most important thing is to get the light source as close as possible to the shaft of the PLM.
I've played with simplifying my jerry-rigged attachment but that is still the most technically elegant ( fewest pieces + most strength @ lowest price)
The silver metal clamp is a Lowel Lobo clamp. They go for about $36.00 for a pair. The Lobo clamp is very useful for other jobs as well, like attaching a flag frame or filter holder to the same light stand a light is on. And the other part is a 5/8th inch diameter stud.
In place of the Bogen/Manfrotto tilting umbrella stand attachment I've also used an Avenger grip head.
)