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Archive 2004 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?

  
 
Bruce Connelly
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p.2 #1 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


I think we can get a good idea of what is possible by looking at the best films and scanner combinations at the actual pixel limits. A 4000 DPI scanner over Astia 100F clearly shows up just about every Canon Zoom and all the wides I have tested below 35mm. Therfore I conclude that the 11MP is enough in the wide end. For 50mm and above the story is different and lenses such as the 135mm F2 will show detail at the limit of Astia 100F (24MP) and therfore I conclude there is merit in sensors above the current 1DS for these optics.

The 10D sensor is currently the digital density leader but in real terms it resolves far less than Astia 100F or Reala a fact you notice easily if you have a 7600 or 9600. Since Canon will produce a denser sensor it may only be of use to mid to tele shooters unless something revolutionary is done to the wides.

Like may of you I have the 16-35L and use it on both digital and film but when the highest quality wide is required there is no competition on the planet for the Mamyia 7, Astia 100F and the 43mm.









Mar 16, 2004 at 07:54 AM
focus
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p.2 #2 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Jan Brittenson wrote:
But Shannon's Sampling Theorem states that if you encode a signal at more than twice its maximum frequency (with infinite precision and accuracy), then you will be able to decode the exact original signal. A lot of things we use every day, such a landline phones and the GSM phone you carry everywhere, rely on this.



The key is "to decode the exact original signal". In telecommunication transmission it means re-generation of the siginals as pre-defined standard at the receiving end of the channel. It's not quite same as lens/film.

Another state of Shannon's sampling theorem is: Sampling frequency must be at least twice the maximum frequency to be measured. Otherwise, aliasing occurs. Please note this sampling frequence only assure aliasing not occur to allow the siginal to be re-generated. It doesn't give the siginal the same shape as input end.










Mar 16, 2004 at 02:58 PM
Jan Brittenson
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p.2 #3 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


focus wrote:
Another state of Shannon's sampling theorem is: Sampling frequency must be at least twice the maximum frequency to be measured. Otherwise, aliasing occurs.

Actually, you need to sample at more than twice the maximum frequency. How much more depends on the accuracy, i.e. it's inversely proportional to the quantization error. Sampling at exactly twice the signal frequency is the worst possible case for aliasing.



Mar 16, 2004 at 04:51 PM
Marco
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p.2 #4 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Bruce Connelly wrote:
when the highest quality wide is required there is no competition on the planet for the Mamyia 7, Astia 100F and the 43mm.


I agree, fantastic lens on a fantastic camera

I've just bought a 1Ds and I intend to use it with the 21mm Zeiss.
If the combo will work as the Mamiya 7 + 43 (I've seen some Velvia shots) I'll be in heaven... I have some doubts though...

Ciao


Marco



Mar 16, 2004 at 06:22 PM
RdEoSg
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p.2 #5 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


anyone notice that there are like 3 conversations going on here at once


I dont have a clue what you are talking about in regards to sampling theorem. so I'll just ask a question and see if anyone can explain it to me with out using a phd

Thinking in terms of printing size only. The Larger the mp, the larger the print right. Im not talking about resing a photo up in the comp.. straight out of the camera. so are they saying, that the 1ds is so sharp out of camera, that if they made it more megapixels, it wouldnt matter because the lenses wouldn't hold their sharpness at a bigger size? and if that is the case? then the only reason a hasselblad with a film back for instance is sharper, is not because film is better than digital, but would be simply because the Zeiss optics are sharper than the L series canon lenses?



Mar 16, 2004 at 08:14 PM
EB-1
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p.2 #6 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


The 1Ds is a fine body, though images are on the soft side without any sharpening. Unless you are using a Coke bottle for a lens, the image quality would be better with more pixels. Really.

EB



Mar 16, 2004 at 08:37 PM
RdEoSg
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p.2 #7 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Coke bottle.. now there is an Idea since i like pin hole and holga cameras


Mar 16, 2004 at 08:44 PM
bouch
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p.2 #8 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


RdEoSg wrote:
then the only reason a hasselblad with a film back for instance is sharper, is not because film is better than digital, but would be simply because the Zeiss optics are sharper than the L series canon lenses?


The reason you can get more detail out of medium format digital is the same reason you can get more detail out of medium (or large) format film than 35mm film - the image itself is much bigger. A medium format lens that delivers the same resolution as an Canon L will give a more detailed final image because the image itself is larger. Medium format optics may or may not better than L glass, but the frame size of medium format is quite a bit larger (this isn't neccesarily true for some digital backs - the Kodak DCS Pro back isn't much bigger than 35mm film).



Mar 17, 2004 at 12:39 AM
McFaddusMP
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p.2 #9 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


I may have no idea what I am talking about, but this thought came to mind about pixels outresolving lenses...

In theory, and in a perfect world where Canon has created the sharpest lens ever and the smallest photosite ever, wouldn't a single photosite in the sensor have to be able to outresolve a photon? The photons are hitting the photosite in groups, so many per pixel as the sensor sites are obviously larger than a photon. Each of those photons contains a discrete amount of detail, the finest amount of detail achievable with physical light. Those variations of stray photons not recorded represent lost data not taken into account. The sensor would have to get every single photon to be perfectly sharp, even though such detail would be lost amongst our eyes. At this point as well there would be faults from the diffraction resulting from the atoms in the optical glass too.

I was thinking that such technology would be ridiculous, but I was looking around to see if I was full of BS in my thoughts and I came across this: ultradeep CCD imaging
(the ned- goes in front of the www with no space but this php script doesn't like it as a link...sorry)
ned www.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Tyson2/Tyson4.html
with of course, a resolution of 1 photon/pixel/minute.

Mark



Mar 17, 2004 at 01:56 AM
hockeynut
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p.2 #10 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?



The answer? 42.



Mar 17, 2004 at 02:31 AM
Peter de Weerdt
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p.2 #11 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


I am very busy these days, so sorry I don't have the time to going into that Shannon sampling theories and Nyquist freguencies again really. I have taken part in that kind of discussions in the past more often here so maybe if one is interested in the geek stuff I am sure there is some thread that covers the information bandwidth theory and sampling still in the archive

But in response to RdEosG's post:

Thinking in terms of printing size only. The Larger the mp, the larger the print right. Im not talking about resing a photo up in the comp.. straight out of the camera. so are they saying, that the 1ds is so sharp out of camera, that if they made it more megapixels, it wouldnt matter because the lenses wouldn't hold their sharpness at a bigger size? and if that is the case? then the only reason a hasselblad with a film back for instance is sharper, is not because film is better than digital, but would be simply because the Zeiss...Show more

You asked it interestingly worded. If I take your question as a rhetorical question I think your question answers the topic in an easily understable way and in fact imaginates perfectly well the point I try to make. Even if you put on let's say the 1Ds an Agfa Clack or Kodak Billy lens, or one of those special lenses with a lot of abberrations that Blair shared images lately, one would still see an improvement (though marginal) in resolution in even the worst parts of the lens in an unsampled (=not upressed) picture at a high resolution in comparison to a lower resolution upressed picture.

Regarding the Zeiss on Hasselblad glass, in fact those medium format lenses in general have lower resolving power in an air image than 35 mm lenses, but the higher resolution of the medium format (film or a digital MF back) in combination with the Zeiss glass makes makes the total resolving power of the system higher. The best Canon L glass has resolving power in an air image that is good enough to serve us until about 100 Mp (at the current state of technology). After that we will probably need totally different technologies like already used in microscopy and telescopy and innovations like Philips fluid lens (also read the interesting article on the is technology on DPreview) and future curved sensors or layered sensors for instance.

Peter



Mar 17, 2004 at 03:28 AM
Bruce Connelly
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p.2 #12 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


I think we need a new thread here. Put simply I believe a sensor above the density of the 300D/10D will be of little benefit in the extreme wide end but of great benefit over 50mm for L Glass. The heart of the issue is not the sensor but the quality of Canon's wide glass, and this is comming from a user of all the three common f2.8 Canon zooms.

In real terms the Canon 16-35mm L at F8-11 (@16mm) will deliver acceptably sharp prints to a magnification of times 11 at max. At this size there is little perceptable difference between scanned Astia 100F and the 1DS.

Since Canon has now entered the wide carriage printer market magnifications of times 20 are in order and no amount of increase in sensor density will deliver the sharpness needed from the present Canon wides. I believe we need to send a clear message to Canon to change direction and announce wide lenses of higher resolution not greater zoom range, smaller size or larger aperture. In the meantime serious consideration must be given to the use of alternate optics on the 1DS or perhaps a comparison with the Nikon primes on the new 14DCS.



Mar 17, 2004 at 05:32 PM
bouch
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p.2 #13 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


I've made several 30x20's or thereabouts from the 1Ds/17-40 and 24mm TS combination. The people who buy the prints seem to like them and they look pretty good to me, too. I seem to get positive comments whenever I have them exhibited. Am I missing something here? Are my prints bad and nobody realizes it? Am I too easily satisfied?


Mar 17, 2004 at 07:02 PM
vince
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p.2 #14 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


flux wrote:
http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/pixel-count.shtml begs to differ.

"The Canon 1Ds can actually out-resolve the best lenses that Canon makes — and some of these are among the best there are." -- Michael Reichmann

When the D30 was released, Reichmann was the guy who said something to the extent that the D30 was better than 35mm, and when the D60 came out he claimed that it was close to medium format. Puh-leeeze, does anyone really take him seriously?



Mar 18, 2004 at 05:00 AM
Mike Spinak
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p.2 #15 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


""The Canon 1Ds can actually out-resolve the best lenses that Canon makes — and some of these are among the best there are." -- Michael Reichmann"

With respect to Michael Reichmann, he is wrong about this. The Canon doesn't even come close to outresolving the best lenses (which, as Peter explains, isn't even a very sensible idea, since both sensor and lens are involved in resultant quality), not even wide angles, not even zoom lenses, and not even on the edge of the frame.

I just put up an article which will show you what a wide angle zoom lens can do on the edge of the frame on a 1Ds, and also implies a possible explanation why some might think the 1Ds outresolves L lenses.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007iOR

--Mike



Mar 18, 2004 at 06:09 AM
rockhopper
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p.2 #16 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Mike Spinak wrote:
I just put up an article which will show you what a wide angle zoom lens can do on the edge of the frame on a 1Ds, and also implies a possible explanation why some might think the 1Ds outresolves L lenses.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=007iOR

--Mike


Very interesting article. Makes you aware that there really are 3 components to every image. (something Peter may want to add to his formula). The lens, the sensor and the photographer himself, how he chooses to take his picture
and what efforts he takes to actually obtain an image.



Mar 18, 2004 at 06:44 AM
Baldur
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p.2 #17 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Does anybody want to take this further into String or M Theory. Photons may not be the ultimate inhibitor in resolution in the future.

But then again what are we going to be doing with a Terapixel camera anyway. I think the future will give us possibilities that will outdo our eyesight and perceptional capabilities.

Compare a Kodak Box camera to the modern day miracle of most digital cameras. Hell a cell phone would be difficult to explain to a hippie at Woodstock even if he was on acid, then try to tell him that the cell phone is also a camera, and a portable hi fi stereo.

Anyway. Interesting thread. You have to watch yourselves, you may have to get berets and sit on the left bank sipping Absinth and become philosophers rather than making pictures



Mar 18, 2004 at 07:10 AM
Peter de Weerdt
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p.2 #18 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Thanks Mike, interesting article!

Rockhopper,

Makes you aware that there really are 3 components to every image. (something Peter may want to add to his formula).

That's right, I have illustrated that in the past in another posting. The resolving power the human eye is involved too, in fact every medium that played a role in the imaging process, so also when involved in the imaging process:

* a scanner
* a printer
* the air (as we all know air is a "lens" too and atmospheric distortion can play an important role in imaging)
* etc.

The formula can be a very long one if one wants to involve all the parameters. In practice the mental model is useful to understand why and how resolving power and limitations of lens and sensor work, but I am not the kind of photographer to calculate all these equations before pressing the shutter

Peter

Peter



Mar 18, 2004 at 07:17 AM
RdEoSg
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p.2 #19 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Thank you for the replies to my post. glad you were able to understand my ramblings

I also discovered something interesting.. or at least to me it was. I got a new computer last month, with a digital screen, DVI i think they call it. and all of a sudden my soft 10d images are sharp just goes to show what a nice screen can do as well.. not that it has anything to do with a final print but an interesting thing anyways.

after having talked about this, I was shooting in the studio the other day with my 10D and a 50 1.4 stopped down to about 5.6 or 8. I never realized that lens could be so damn sharp when used in good conditions where you could control the model and lighting. Im used to shooting available light candids needing very wide f-stops. I need to stop my lenses down more often.. ive always known they were sharper stopped down, just never put it to use



Mar 18, 2004 at 02:29 PM
jray
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p.2 #20 · Megapixels -> lenses limiting factor?


Regardless of lens quality, there's another fly in the ointment which is why I think the current pixel density of the D60, 10D and 300D, are getting close to the point where we will start to see diminishing returns. IMO, 20-24MP or so on a full frame 35mm format sensor should run us up close to that unmovable wall, physics. Keep in mind a full frame 35mm sensor with the same pixel density as a 10D is already at 16MP.

Even the best of lenses will have their optic quality overshadowed at smaller apertures by diffraction. This is bound to physics, and there is no way out. Since the amount of diffraction is a fixed angular figure based upon wavelength, images will have an increasing percentage of their image circle comprised of diffracted light as apertures become smaller. This reduces image sharpness and ultimately limits the maximum practical pixel density of a given sensor design.

As digital sensor pixel densities increase, the number of usable working aperture values will decrease until that nasty little critter Airy's Disc (Sir George Airy) bites us on the butt (below). Couple this with reduced DOF ('depth of focus' at the sensor end) at larger aperture values coupled with AF error (my rant below), and we're getting close to the point of limited returns in regards to the detail that can be captured by a 35mm sensor, regardless of the lens optics.

I'll stay away from a bunch of math here since; 1) Although I can deal with it when need be, I don't really like to, and 2) It's the quickest way to have a thread become tedious and boring. I'll just list a few links to sites with pertinent data:


Airy pattern/Rayleigh Criterion: http://molecularexpressions.com/primer/java/imageformation/rayleighdisks/
Airy's disc: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/cirapp.html#c1
The Rayleigh Criterion: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/raylei.html#c1
Main Diffraction Menu: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/phyopt/diffracon.html#c1
Light & Vision Menu: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/ligcon.html#c1



My AF rant:

First I want to give my own 'expanded' definition of a 'blur circle'. I think of it as the aggregate physical size of any virtual image point that is increased in size by 'various' factors such as diffraction, DOF, or AF error.

In addition to diffraction limiting, the accuracy of the auto-focus system should be factored into the decision to couple a higher density sensor to a given camera design. The higher the sensor pixel density, the more accurate the AF system needs to be in order to insure the overall blur circle is about half the size or smaller than the area of an individual photosite. If we consult Nyquist, it should actually be less than half the size to insure more than 2x sample frequency, but this is the world of analog where photosites are square (more area) and blur circles are round, so 2x should be enough

The D60, 10D, and now the 300D all have pixels densities of ~18,355 pixels per square millimeter, or ~135.5 per lineal millimeter, and they all have AF systems that do not properly support such a pixel density IMO. Although the 10D and 300D AF systems are more sensitive and faster than those on the D60 and D30, their accuracy and repeatability just don't cut it as far as I'm concerned, especially at larger apertures. Although this is only my opinion, I base it upon a number of images I've taken with both a D30 and 10D where the 10D captured no more detail than a manually focused D30 shot. Such D30 images when upsampled to 3072 x 2048 for comparison contained every bit as much image detail, and sometimes more if the 10D's AF was off by much. This tells me the 10D AF system has far too much error for its sensor's pixel density. Although AF error will always have an effect on the overall image sharpness, it should never result in captured image detail that is the same, or less, than that of a sensor of significantly lower MP IMO.

The focusing system on Canon cameras comes in two varieties; High-Precision, and Normal-Precision. As per Chuck Westfall, Director/Technical Information Dept. - Canon U.S.A.:

"A "normal-precision" AF sensor produces focusing accuracy within the depth of focus for the lens' maximum aperture. A high-precision" AF sensor produces focusing accuracy within 1/3 the depth of focus for the lens' maximum aperture."

While 'Normal-Precision' may have been acceptable for film (not IMO), it's already having a direct effect upon the captured image detail of the 10D and 300D as far as I'm concerned. To be honest, I've never agreed with classic DOF calculations for critical focus and have always used figures for the next largest aperture when possible as my maximum DOF criteria. Increased sensor pixel densities will only exacerbate the issue. Minimal math follows. Boo... Hiss...

Assuming the 10D/300D/D60 sensor size of 22.7mm x 15.1mm relates to the effective area imaging area, then the pitch between individual photosites is ~.007mm. If the effective imaging area is actually less, then the pitch between photosites is even smaller.

At f/11, the blur circle caused by diffraction (Airy's Disc) is almost equal in size to the pixel pitch, but the blur circle caused by the 10D's 'acceptable' AF error is even larger at times. This shouldn't be. When AF error on a given camera produces more detrimental effects to the image than diffraction, it's time to hit the drawing board. Canon will need to update their AF system before offering pro-sumer 8MP DSLRs. Canon's Normal-Precision specs just wont cut it for higher densities. I won't buy an 8MP DSLR that only offers more image detail when manually focused. I already have one in the 10D, why do I need another one? End of AF rant....

Between the effects of DOF and AF error on one end, and diffraction limiting on the other, we're getting close to the end of the MP war for the 35mm format IMO. Now it's time to concentrate on greater dynamic range, larger color gamut, lower noise, etc. These are the things that push digital far past what film ever offered, and will issue in a new era in photography for all of us.



Mar 18, 2004 at 07:06 PM
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