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Archive 2009 · Question on sync speed
  
 
synthesist
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p.1 #1 · Question on sync speed


I'm looking at the Alien Bees site and in the specsheet for the b800 it states that flash duration is 1/3300s for a full power discharge.

Does this mean that with a Pocket Wizard Plus 2 I should be able to sync at that speed on my XTi?

Jul 22, 2009 at 04:50 AM
hardlyboring
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p.1 #2 · Question on sync speed


No you can only sync up to 1/250 of a second. The flash duration is really short but the problem is syncing the flash and the shutter. If you want to beat your sync speed your going to need the radio poppers. Sorry
Doug

Jul 22, 2009 at 04:58 AM
k7xd
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p.1 #3 · Question on sync speed


synthesist wrote:
should be able to sync at that speed on my XTi?


You might want to read your camera manual.




Jul 22, 2009 at 05:43 AM
synthesist
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p.1 #4 · Question on sync speed


k7xd wrote:

You might want to read your camera manual.


And the award for least helpful troll goes to k7xd! Come on up man, take a bow.


I'm a little confused on High Speed Sync and why the plus ii can't make use of it.

Pocket wizard says the plus ii only have a 1/2000 latency.


Jul 22, 2009 at 08:13 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #5 · Question on sync speed


Camera sync speed is a function of how much time it takes the first curtain to completely expose the sensor.

Regardless of shutter speed setting the two curtains in the shutter mechanism travel at the same speed, about 1/300th sec. The way exposures less that x-sync are obtained is by having the second curtain close before the first one clears. At speeds slightly above x-sync you'll see the shadow of the second curtain closing as the flash goes off as a black band on the long dimension of the image. At very short shutter speeds like 1/8000th the gap between the first and second shutter is a very small slit that moves across the sensor at a rate of about 1/300th (i.e. slightly faster than the x-sync rating).

When you add a radio trigger there is a delay between the time the camera sends the "fire" signal and the PW receiver can get it to the flash. So typically you may need to slow the shutter below the rated x-sync speed. Just shoot a white wall so you can see any shadow from the 2nd curtain and reduce speed until any 2nd curtain shutter disappears.

Keep in mind the flash duration stops action, not the shutter, so shooting at 1/160th or 1/125th is not a problem in most cases. Just reduce the ambient light level in the shooting space to reduce any ambient blur potential.

FYI - System flashes such as the 580ex sync flash at higher speeds by pulsing it like a continuous source.

Jul 22, 2009 at 10:15 AM
BrianO
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p.1 #6 · Question on sync speed


synthesist wrote:...I'm a little confused on High Speed Sync and why the plus ii can't make use of it.

I could be wrong (and I'm going to test this later today, so I'll let you know), but I think the PW Plus II only transmits the x-sync signal, but the FP/HSS function on the 580EX/580EX II requires more inputs.

Jul 22, 2009 at 06:49 PM
 



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p.1 #7 · Question on sync speed


As an FYI - If you need that last 50th of a second, don't need radio for that shoot in question and don't want cords to trip over, a simple camera-mount flash of sufficient power (I use older Nikon units) with an IR gel over the tube will get you back to rated sync.

So equipped, it will contribute nothing to the image, can be aimed if needed (if a tilt/swivel unit) and will trigger any studio unit with an IR slave cell. Some of those older units like the SB-24, 80, etc put out a hell of a IR burst ;>. At 24mm full power, they'll bounce an strong IR pulse to hell and back in any good sized room. Outside of course is another matter.

On my 1Ds2 with my Skyports (love them), I lose the typical 50th of a sec, so 1/200th vs rated 1/250th. Using a Nikon SB-24 + IR filter kit (full disclosure - listed on B&S) I get the full rated 1/250th, no issues.




Jul 22, 2009 at 08:26 PM
dmward
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p.1 #8 · Question on sync speed


The only PW products sending the proprietary Canon HiSpeed Sync info are the new TTL1 and TTL5 units.
All other PW products are simple sync pulse media convertors. i.e. electrical to RF and back.

Jul 23, 2009 at 01:19 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #9 · Question on sync speed


A "hack" someone recently discovered for high shutter speeds with studio lights is using a Canon flash in high speed sync mode as an optical trigger.

What happens is that the Canon flash in high speed mode starts pulsing just before the shutter opens, triggering the studio flash with a relatively long duration to also fire before the shutter opens. If the camera shutter speed is set high enough (e.g. 1/4000th - 1/8000th) it will complete the exposure while the studio flash is still firing. The caveat is that despite the flash shutter speed setting on the dial of the camera the slit exposing the sensor is only traveling at a slightly faster than x-sync, in the range of 1/400th or so, which means that unless the studio strobes have rather long flash durations the frame might not be evenly exposed and there still might be some blur if the subject is moving.

It's a happy convenience in timing - long flash duration / fast shutter / triggering before the shutter opens, but it really has no practical use. If the goal is to stop action then the ideal combination is a flash with a very short flash duration such as a hot shoe flash in Manual mode at low power (low power = short duration) with a long camera shutter speed in a totally dark room. Open shutter, fire flash to freeze action, close shutter.

The high speed hack for studio flash is similar to how flash bulbs were sync'd to cameras in the good 'ol days. Flash bulbs are slow in ramping up to peak intensity so the sync signal to fire them had to be sent before the shutter opened. My first two cameras, an Nikonos II and Nikon F had a selection for either "F" for flash bulb or "FX" for flash, hence the origin of the term "x-sync" . The choice of the letter X may be due to the fact Xenon gas is used in the flash tubes.

The high speed FP sync mode in Canon flash wasn't designed for stopping action but rather to allow the use of wide apertures when shooting outdoors in bright light with flash. Outdoors shutter must be used to control the ambient. But when using conventional flash the x-sync speed limits shutter to 1/200 - 1/500th (varies with camera) requiring apertures of f/16 - f/11 to correctly expose the background and ambient lit parts of the subject. The problem with f/16 - f/11 is too much DOF and the fact a large amount of flash power is needed.

Pulsing the flash at about 4,000 Hz turns it into a continuous source which allows the use of any shutter speed. Faster shutter speeds allow wider apertures resulting in more creative control over DOF. Wider apertures also require less flash power. So while there is a drop in flash output when using High Speed FP mode, there also isn't much power required to get past an aperture set at f/2.8 - its a trade-off. But because the flash is acting as a continuous source the shutter speed will also affect the need for flash power. All things considered its better to shoot in ETTL mode if using high-speed flash and let the camera metering sort all that out. If found that the camera does that quite well when the ambient exposure is adjusted to keep everything below clipping. See this PDF tutorial on using High Speed FP mode outdoors: LINK

Chuck

Jul 23, 2009 at 01:35 PM
joewoo
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p.1 #10 · Question on sync speed


So chuck, let's say I'm shooting 1/4000th @ f/2.0 ::

At what distance does the flash become null at providing any fill?

I've shot with HSS but in the field, there's no way for me to know if the distance is too far...
Sure, I can chimp my lowly 2" screen, but in sunlight, its almost impossible to accurately tell if the HSS is doing anything...
And comparing the histogram to the before and after is meaningless too because if you're covering an event, the composition is changing between the two shots cuz you're not on a tripod...or the subject is in a slightly different position...
Its evident when I can clearly see a 2:1 or maybe even 4:1... But its hard to determine anything after that...

Am I missing some mathematical answer? I'd love to know when my flash is operating at max when I use ettl hss so I'm not foolishly placing my lights out of the limit..

Jul 23, 2009 at 02:18 PM
joewoo
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p.1 #11 · Question on sync speed


I'm jus now slightly remembering that it depends on how much higher the ambient is over 250th at a given f/....

But the details are fuzzy

Jul 23, 2009 at 02:30 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #12 · Question on sync speed


Joewoo....

The way to tell what the flash is doing is to start from a baseline of no flash. Take an ambient test shot and adjust exposure until no highlight in the foreground you'll light with the flash is clipping. In Av mode that will typically require about - 2 EC and result in a shot that looks underexposed OVERALL.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




But what makes the flash metering work correctly is keeping the ambient lit highlights below clipping. Then its just a matter of turning on the flash and letting the evaluative metering do its magic...



This image is copyrighted by the owner




That shot above as at FEC =0 and matches perfectly. In the RAW file the sunlit parts are still below clipping and the flash lit parts lit by the flash are slightly darker, similar to how you'd perceive it in person. Actually giving the context of the darker than normal background, which is a result of the camera's limited dynamic range, the foreground may seem a bit over-flashed.

That shot was taken from about 12 ft at f/2.8. I put the second stand in the background to show the effect of the flash fall off. If you perform some similar tests you'll get a good understanding of the range you can expect. But there are two key concepts you need to understand to make flash outdoors work:

1) You can't overlap sun and flash: To make flash work outdoors the keep the sun off the front of the face entirely. Adjust ambient for the sunlit hair and clothing below clipping, then add flash to balance

2) The flash is the KEY LIGHT: By definition the key light is the one that creates the highlight pattern and that's what the flash does outdoors. The fill illuminating the spots the flash doesn't reach comes from the sky, and is 3 stops darker than the sunny side. So flash outdoors needs to be positioned like a key light above the head of the subject where is will create a natural looking mask pattern of highlights and no distracting nose shadow. A flash bracket is ideal for this.

3) The sky is the FILL LIGHT: WIth a subject in backlight front of the face is in God's own softbox the sky. There's plenty of soft light, its just a bit to dark for the camera to record the face as your adaptive eyesight perceives it in person. So in most portrait situations outdoors where sun is used as backlight its better to use two flashes: One off camera to create the highlight pattern, with a second on a camera bracket for fill. The only difference between indoors and out is the outdoors the flash doesn't need to work as hard because the light from the sky supplies most of the light and flash just needs to kick it up a notch.

3) The wider the aperture the less flash power is needed: High Speed mode cuts flash power so when using it try to shoot as wide open as your DOF requirements allow.

4) Its better to augment the ambient that fight it: Hot shoe flashes have limited power so the willing strategies are to work with the ambient rather than fighting it. That's limiting to some degree, but that's the nature of all lighting situations: you need to pick the strategy which works best within the limits of your equipment. In most situations the best strategy is to keep the sun off the face entirely in closer shots of people and then use flash in front to augment the light from sky.

More than anything what makes lighting unflattering is harsh dark shadows, so
For longer full body shots, such as for glamor or fashion work, where the emphasis is on the the clothing not the face flat lighting facing the sun can often be a better strategy than trying to fill with flash and not having enough power to do it adequately.

Chuck





Jul 23, 2009 at 05:25 PM




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