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KathleenMartin Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #1 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... I'm in the middle of a situation and since it's not going to be an "earning" experience, I might as well make it a "learning" experience. Here's the quick rundown... For the third year in a row, I've been engaged by my neighborhood swim team to do T&I. They have a volunteer that coordinates it and she invited me back. Meanwhile, unknown to the coordinator and myself, another volunteer has engaged a photographer to come & shoot action (with some printing on demand). The action photographer is scheduled to shoot the meet two days prior to the T&I shooting. No contracts have been signed and no money has changed hands. The action photographer knows about the T&I photography but said he'll only do action (how kind - and timely since he's been scheduled two days BEFORE the parents write checks for T&I). I have offered to do the action (have done so in the past) but now the volunteer refuses to cancel the other vendor. I found out about this on Saturday when it was announced to the team in an email (my son swims for the team) and have been trying to resolve the issue since then. The meet is tonight. Had I known about it earlier, I would have first fought for the business & second, if I didn't get it, I would have declined the T&I. The other volunteer and the league president feel that the action photographer won't take away from the T&I photographer. They see these as two different types of photography and call it an "apples & oranges" comparison. By the way, the volunteer assigned to do the photograph coordination job is in Cabo (where I wish I was!) so no help from her. So, what would you do in this situation? Obviously a contract would have helped but since that doesn't exist, where do I go from here? This is not a big team (less than 70 kids). Thanks for any & all responses! Kathleen www.LKNSports.com PS - They have conceded that it's not because of my skills shooting action - the parent just saw this other photographer & decided it would be something good for the team. Jun 29, 2009 at 06:30 PM

P Alesse Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #2 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... Nothing you can do. It is indeed apples and oranges. The unfortunate aspect is the timing, but I really do think you'll do okay with the T&I. In my experience, the T&I has affected action sales, not the other way around. Let us know how your sales are. Jun 29, 2009 at 07:12 PM

JohnBrose Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #3 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... I would just go through with the T&I and do the best job I can. Don't worry about the other photographer and maybe they won't even like the other person's work. 1/2 a pie is still better than no pie I would think. Maybe next year you can work on more of an exclusive contract, but not if you get worked up this year and burn bridges. Jun 29, 2009 at 07:14 PM

leewoolery Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #4 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... Kathleen: From my experience...I think you'll make more money off the team photos than action. It would be nice to have both but sometimes that just doesn't work out. In the future, negotiate well-in-advance for an exclusive deal for team and individuals...plus action. I could see how this may be viewed as a conflict-of-interest by having a child in the league....but it may not be an issue. Much success, Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo Jun 29, 2009 at 08:04 PM

Gerry Szarek Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #5 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... Do the best you can at the T&I and if it doesn't work out, dump the team next year, having said this, if it is anything like synchronized swimming they really are 2 different events, and since most parents have decent DSLR's there really isn't much "action" shots to be achieved. Gerry Jun 30, 2009 at 12:29 AM

HorseRacing Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #6 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... t&i is a much more profitable business so be glad you got that part of it. It is likely to have 80-90% participation if you do it well, I doubt the action side of things will even come close to that. I shoot a lot of leagues and do some action but the action sales have been going down consistantly for 8 years since the DSLR but the T&I is still going strong. Jun 30, 2009 at 01:02 PM

copr33 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #7 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... I'd definitely go with the T&I and try to work in the action next season. I'm actually on the other end of that issue. I shoot action for a league and the T&I photographer complained to the league that I was taking sales away from them. Since they "donate" a substantial sum of $$$$ to the league, I now have to wait until AFTER they have shot the team photos before I can offer my sales. If that isn't bad enough, it seems they have now started to schedule the team photos towards the END of the seasons. Good luck and let us know the outcome. Jun 30, 2009 at 01:19 PM

Marty Bingham Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #8 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... KathleenMartin wrote: Had I known about it earlier, I would have first fought for the business & second, if I didn't get it, I would have declined the T&I. So, what would you do in this situation? Kathleen Let's talk about the fighting for business or protecting your territory aspect. It's not a huge deal but a T&I for a 70 member team should bring in a minimum of a couple thousand dollars. Throw in about half that for a season's action and your looking at 3k or so. Project that out for however many years you think you will cover it and it adds up to a decent gig. Just because someone else shows up with a camera doesn't mean you have to pack up and go home. Especially if no one has a contract. If you want to shoot action jump in and shoot action. But do it politely. Approach the organizers with something like........"Hey if you don't mind I would like to cover the action anyway. I already made plans and cleared my schedule for it." Even if you don't make any money you will keep your foot in the door and maybe discourage the other guy from coming back if you impact his sales. As for declining the T&I......that doesn't make sense. I don't see how that would help your situation. It would probably take you out of the game altogether. So to answer your question about what I would do. I would definitely do the T&I. Try to keep involved in the action without making too big of a stink and work on my relationship with the decision makers within the organization. Although it's too late on this deal there's always next year Marty Jun 30, 2009 at 01:48 PM

Joe300 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #9 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... The T&I is going to be your bread and butter....bringing in some $$$ for sure.. the action if it is something the parent likes then you might make a few bucks there too. I did baseball T&I and made good sales which I knew was coming in for sure. but the action stuff was hit or miss... It was good to have some sales from the action stuff too. But at times there was a young photog next to me just getting started and I didnt mind at all....if he got the shot that I missed then at least the parent had a chance to buy a copy from one of us. Keep shooting, Joe Jun 30, 2009 at 04:36 PM

KathleenMartin Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #10 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... snaptie2002 wrote: KathleenMartin wrote: Had I known about it earlier, I would have first fought for the business & second, if I didn't get it, I would have declined the T&I. So, what would you do in this situation? Kathleen Let's talk about the fighting for business or protecting your territory aspect. It's not a huge deal but a T&I for a 70 member team should bring in a minimum of a couple thousand dollars. Throw in about half that for a season's action and your looking at 3k or so. Project that out for however many years you think you will cover it and it adds up to a decent gig. Good point - if I thought it would bring in that kind of money, I wouldn't even be having a problem. Unfortunately, this particular team is a loss leader for me. Over the past two years, this team hasn't brought in more than $300 in sales/year. It's the neighborhood rec team and for the most part, they don't take it seriously. Last year, out of 90 kids, less than 12 had individuals taken (and that was after multiple emails & reminders from the coaches). It may be that this area is over-saturated with kids' sports. Many of the kids just finished baseball or lacrosse, many are in camps (for sports) and football & the other fall sports start in a month. Or, it could be me... That's a depressing thought! Just in case, here are a couple links to examples of my latest t&i work: Swim Lax The flip side of this is my t&i sports work brings in portrait business and where I might make $25 on a t&i shoot for one family, I'll make $400 - $700 on their portraits. That's why I feel it a loss leader. Every t&i I do generates several portrait customers. Next step for me... Look around at the different offerings for t&i on this forum & see what they're delivering. From there, I need to increase participation on each team and get each participant to spend more. Piece of cake!! Thanks for helping me look at this situation from a less-involved perspective! Kathleen Jun 30, 2009 at 07:43 PM

leewoolery Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #11 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... KathleenMartin wrote: Last year, out of 90 kids, less than 12 had individuals taken (and that was after multiple emails & reminders from the coaches). Kathleen 13.3 % of participants bought pictures? You are much more patient than I am. I dropped a high school this past year because they were only purchasing about 60% on team and individuals. With the right marketing, you should be able to attract clients for senior and family portraits without the effort it takes to assemble a team photo day. Much success, Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo Jun 30, 2009 at 09:40 PM

P Alesse Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #12 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... leewoolery wrote: KathleenMartin wrote: Last year, out of 90 kids, less than 12 had individuals taken (and that was after multiple emails & reminders from the coaches). Kathleen 13.3 % of participants bought pictures? You are much more patient than I am. I dropped a high school this past year because they were only purchasing about 60% on team and individuals. With the right marketing, you should be able to attract clients for senior and family portraits without the effort it takes to assemble a team photo day. Much success, Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo Lee... you know the rule... the less they wear, the less they spend. Jun 30, 2009 at 09:57 PM

jetmutant Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #13 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... It is indeed apples & oranges and as Lee said the bread & butter is T&I, action makes money but not nearly as much as the T&I The swim meets I shot were a difficult sell, most of the swimmers were using the pictures from the view stations to check their form, resulting in a few sales but not all that many... Jun 30, 2009 at 10:09 PM

KathleenMartin Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #14 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... leewoolery wrote: With the right marketing, you should be able to attract clients for senior and family portraits without the effort it takes to assemble a team photo day. Much success, Lee Woolery Speedshot Photo While I haven't stepped into the senior photos, I agree with you on the family portraits. I do the sports for enjoyment and because it feeds into my portrait work. I'm not going to end up with three shooters working for me & on-site printing. Thanks to sports, though, I have a huge database of names & emails addresses and I'm able to do some great marketing which produces portrait sessions. A side note on the action photographer at the meet... He showed up in a rusted out SUV with a 1970's era camper attached to it (he produces some of the products on-site). Several parents mentioned he was rude. Another one said that his equipment feel apart as he was using it (the tripod had a leg problem). I'm sure he made more money that night that I did since I wasn't shooting but after the fact, I ended up with two portrait sessions for this fall from a couple swim team families. Mission accomplished, I guess. BTW, loved the comment regarding the ratio of clothing/gear to purchases. So true!! Jul 01, 2009 at 01:14 AM

photolew Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #15 · Multiple Swim Team Vendors... I used to do a ton of action pics back in the 90's and have done less and less as time goes on. WHen I do do it its primarily to get the T&I stuff.....if you can get the T&I and someone else wants to waste their time doing the action stuff.....sounds like the perfect set up to me.... Jul 01, 2009 at 11:37 AM

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