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Steve Ickes Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #1 · Defining the Photo Industry Out of sheer boredom, I decided to drop into Craig's List to see what photo equipment might be for sale locally and I came across an interesting ad: "Wanted: Camera Coach". Basically a guy had posted that he was looking for someone to help both he and his wife get more acquainted with their Nikon D200 so that they could break away from Program mode. I decided that it might be fun to pick up a few extra bucks teaching someone to use their DSLR so I responded. I'm usually pretty willing to throw out tips to hobbyists when I out and about anyone so why not get paid to do so for a change. Received a message back that he had already found someone to help them but would like to keep me in his "back pocket" if needed. What he wrote next though is really what made my jaw drop. He explained that what he really needed was someone to teach both he and his wife how to setup their new photography business and would I be interested in speaking to them! So let's recap shall we: "We need someone to show us HOW to use our camera because we're starting a photography business..." I didn't know if I should laugh or cry. Jun 26, 2009 at 03:39 PM

davenfl Online Image Upload: Off p.1 #2 · Defining the Photo Industry Cry, it's one of the strange facts of life brought to us by instant digital photography, keep shooting until I get one I like, throw the rest away. Anyone can do it, I didn't say well or even good, I said anyone, in a significant number of peoples opinion, can do it! Then when your done take them to Walmart and get them printed. You've seen the Nikon wedding ads, absolute magic, absolute non-sense would be more like it. Jun 26, 2009 at 03:51 PM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #3 · Defining the Photo Industry What's the big deal? Everyone has to start somewhere. Jun 26, 2009 at 04:12 PM

Melnik Online Image Upload: Off p.1 #4 · Defining the Photo Industry mdude85 wrote: What's the big deal? Everyone has to start somewhere. True, but at least after they know how to use their equipment. I would not worry, they not gonna last long. Just check Craigslist in a couple month to pick up cheap equipment from them. Jun 26, 2009 at 04:36 PM

Brent Ward Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #5 · Defining the Photo Industry mdude85 wrote: What's the big deal? Everyone has to start somewhere. Mdude, Walk up to Pepsi and repeat the same line. "Hi, I would like you to teach me how to make pepsi and then how to build a successful business around it". Let me know if the help you or not. This is a business!!! Jun 26, 2009 at 05:12 PM

shatterkiss Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #6 · Defining the Photo Industry I regularly see Craigslist posts like this: "I'm starting a photography business and have bought all the right equipment, now I just need someone to teach me how to use it! Would prefer a professional photographer with a successful portrait or fashion business, please have a portfolio to show me. I'll need you to come me in (insert inconvenient location). Should only take a few hours, willing to pay up to $100." Jun 26, 2009 at 05:21 PM

dan101 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #7 · Defining the Photo Industry I knew a guy who owned a high end studio for 50 years and had never operated a camera. He said, why should he do it. Photographers were a dime a dozen. He could hire the photo stuff done, he was a businessman. He would handle all the business end, which, he said, most photographers cannot do and they would take the photo's. It worked very well for him. They shot wedding, portrait, and commercial and he had photographers for each. I also heard it said that a good businessman that is a bad photographer will do better in the photo business than a good photographer that is a bad businessperson. Jun 26, 2009 at 05:31 PM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #8 · Defining the Photo Industry Melnik wrote: mdude85 wrote: What's the big deal? Everyone has to start somewhere. True, but at least after they know how to use their equipment. The whole point of the Craigslist ad is they are wanting to know how to use their equipment. Nothing in the ad indicates that they want to start a business before learning photography. Would you scoff at an ad asking for guitar lessons for an aspiring musician? Jun 26, 2009 at 05:50 PM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #9 · Defining the Photo Industry Brent Ward wrote: mdude85 wrote: What's the big deal? Everyone has to start somewhere. Mdude, Walk up to Pepsi and repeat the same line. "Hi, I would like you to teach me how to make pepsi and then how to build a successful business around it". Let me know if the help you or not. This is a business!!! Not a good analogy. First of all, Pepsi has a secret formula and their profitability is based on sole/proprietary utilization of that formula. Teaching someone how to effectively take a photo in manual mode is not giving away any "secrets" inherent for a business to make money. In other words, you aren't directly harming your business by offering photography lessons any more than you are harming your business by posting advice right here on these forums. Nobody said you had to give away your best and most secret business tips. Secondly, the ad does not ask how to build a successful business (at least from what the OP posted). Jun 26, 2009 at 05:54 PM

Micky Bill Online Image Upload: Off p.1 #10 · Defining the Photo Industry mdude85 wrote: Would you scoff at an ad asking for guitar lessons for an aspiring musician? Yes, armchair scoffing is a blood sport on forums. Jun 26, 2009 at 07:46 PM

mmurph Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #11 · Defining the Photo Industry mdude85 wrote: Secondly, the ad does not ask how to build a successful business (at least from what the OP posted). Did you read the rest of his post? That is exactly what this thread is about! Steve Ickes wrote: What he wrote next though is really what made my jaw drop. He explained that what he really needed was someone to teach both he and his wife how to setup their new photography business and would I be interested in speaking to them! So let's recap shall we: "We need someone to show us HOW to use our camera because we're starting a photography business..." I didn't know if I should laugh or cry. Jun 26, 2009 at 08:14 PM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #12 · Defining the Photo Industry Who knows mmurph? Maybe they were only interested in getting some tips about starting a business when they learned the OP ran a business himself? Anyway, I'm just not sure why this is such a big deal. The OP has over 1100 posts on FM, probably mostly advice for taking decent photos and/or running a business... And yet a couple asking for paid advice on how to run a successful photography business is a jaw-dropper? Jun 26, 2009 at 08:19 PM

Micky Bill Online Image Upload: Off p.1 #13 · Defining the Photo Industry mmurph wrote: mdude85 wrote: Secondly, the ad does not ask how to build a successful business (at least from what the OP posted). Did you read the rest of his post? That is exactly what this thread is about! Steve Ickes wrote: What he wrote next though is really what made my jaw drop. He explained that what he really needed was someone to teach both he and his wife how to setup their new photography business and would I be interested in speaking to them! So let's recap shall we: "We need someone to show us HOW to use our camera because we're starting a photography business..." I didn't know if I should laugh or cry. Geez. There is an entire industry devoted to things like this, there are weekend, one day, and online workshops for every aspect of photography, weddings, landscape, glamour, pet photos, business, you name it. Calumet and Samys have "how to use your camera" classes. Do you laugh and cry about those as well? Jun 26, 2009 at 08:35 PM

shatterkiss Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #14 · Defining the Photo Industry Micky Bill wrote: Geez. There is an entire industry devoted to things like this, there are weekend, one day, and online workshops for every aspect of photography, weddings, landscape, glamour, pet photos, business, you name it. Calumet and Samys have "how to use your camera" classes. Do you laugh and cry about those as well? But are they "how to use your camera so that you can start a photography business tomorrow" classes? The point isn't that someone wanted to pay someone else to give them a crash course in digital photography, it's that they've already decided that they're starting a business and clearly have no experience with the necessary trade or craft, but think they can just spend an afternoon picking it up. And think that their competition, who they'll soon be lowballing against, will have any incentive to teach them. Jun 27, 2009 at 01:54 PM

Micky Bill Online Image Upload: Off p.1 #15 · Defining the Photo Industry shatterkiss wrote: Micky Bill wrote: Geez. There is an entire industry devoted to things like this, there are weekend, one day, and online workshops for every aspect of photography, weddings, landscape, glamour, pet photos, business, you name it. Calumet and Samys have "how to use your camera" classes. Do you laugh and cry about those as well? But are they "how to use your camera so that you can start a photography business tomorrow" classes? The point isn't that someone wanted to pay someone else to give them a crash course in digital photography, it's that they've already decided that they're starting a business and clearly have no experience with the necessary trade or craft, but think they can just spend an afternoon picking it up. And think that their competition, who they'll soon be lowballing against, will have any incentive to teach them. You can't have it both ways by condemning those who ask for some help as well as those who don't ask for help. The bar to entering the business of photography is so low it's non-existent. I sort of give the CL poster credit for at least trying to get some educatin' about the business rather than going out 'cold'. They might learn something about fees, workflow, etc. (probably not), and they probably will give up pretty quickly when they learn the $ aren't as easy to get as they thought. As far as lowballing goes, if someone's competition is a person who is on CL who just bought a camera, IMO they don't really have much of a business yet and they need to step up their skills and upgrade their clients and get out of the CL gutter. Jun 27, 2009 at 09:08 PM

Marty Bingham Online Image Upload: On p.1 #16 · Defining the Photo Industry Micky Bill wrote: mdude85 wrote: Would you scoff at an ad asking for guitar lessons for an aspiring musician? Yes, armchair scoffing is a blood sport on forums. That's funny........True but funny! Jun 27, 2009 at 10:48 PM

Steve Ickes Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #17 · Defining the Photo Industry As the OP I feel I should clear this up since opinions seem to be all over the map. First of all, I am not at all threatened by these folks. Secondly, I'm not posting in anger or out of indignation. I simply posted because I found the entire exchange so incredibly ludicrous and laughable. For the record, yes the original ad was for someone to show this guy and his wife how to use their camera. When I contacted them he informed me that they had found someone to do that but also needed someone to show them how to start their new photo business. What I found completely ridiculous (and maybe some of you don't see it the same way) was that they wanted to know how to use the very equipment that they intended to start their business with. It's kind of like deciding to go into IT consulting but having to learn how to use a computer first. I just found it funny that's all. No reason for everyone to get all upset. Jun 28, 2009 at 03:06 AM

mkweaver Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #18 · Defining the Photo Industry I'm with you, Steve Ickes. It is ludicrous! I had a good laugh over it! And, yes, I used to teach photography to people at the high school after-hours adult classes. I got some of my best customers from my students! But none of them decided to start a business before they took the class -- or after, for that matter! Jun 29, 2009 at 04:50 PM

mmurph Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #19 · Defining the Photo Industry Steve Ickes wrote: It's kind of like deciding to go into IT consulting but having to learn how to use a computer first. I just found it funny that's all. I did too Steve. Thanks for the post. I've been trying to think of an analogy myself. Maybe someone wanting to be a plumber, and asking you to show them how an adjustible wrench works - then putting an ad in the phone book? Or wanting to be a professional tennis player, and asking the guy at the store how to hold the racket? After 25 years in the business, with a degree in photography, I sometimes doubt my own competence. But that comes with age, and a general incompetence at everything - like using an adjustible wrench. Cheers! Michael Jun 29, 2009 at 04:55 PM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #20 · Defining the Photo Industry I think your examples are too extreme, mmurph. As was noted before, the barrier to entry for a photography business is incredibly low. You can tell just by browsing FM that there are a lot of people running photography businesses and the level of skill ranges from fantastic to horrendous. The barrier to entry for a professional tennis player is extremely high and the barrier to entry for IT consulting is also quite high. People with gear, a photography manual and an internet connection can start a photography LLC in a weekend. Who knows if they will be successful, but they can try! If you don't want to help them, then don't, but it doesn't take a photography degree and 25 years of experience to be successful in the photography business. Like I said, everyone has to start somewhere! Jun 29, 2009 at 05:37 PM

Steve Ickes Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #21 · Defining the Photo Industry Actually the barrier to IT consulting is quite low as well. One good book on Windows Small Business Server and you can pass yourself off as an IT consultant to small to medium sized businesses. Been there, seen that. Jun 30, 2009 at 02:04 AM

mdude85 Offline Image Upload: On p.1 #22 · Defining the Photo Industry Steve Ickes wrote: Actually the barrier to IT consulting is quite low as well. One good book on Windows Small Business Server and you can pass yourself off as an IT consultant to small to medium sized businesses. Been there, seen that. You kind of refuted your own argument, there, Steve! Jun 30, 2009 at 02:45 PM

Steve Ickes Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #23 · Defining the Photo Industry mdude85 wrote: Steve Ickes wrote: Actually the barrier to IT consulting is quite low as well. One good book on Windows Small Business Server and you can pass yourself off as an IT consultant to small to medium sized businesses. Been there, seen that. You kind of refuted your own argument, there, Steve! Not really. My statement was completely sarcastic based on my 20+ years of experience in IT. Yes you can buy the book, yes you can sell yourself as a consultant but does that make you qualified? Absolutely not. Jul 01, 2009 at 02:06 AM

pipspeak Offline Buy and Sell: On p.1 #24 · Defining the Photo Industry It happens all the time. I'm a predominantly a writer and if I got demoralized every time I heard someone talk about how they write this or that, or how they are going to be a writer, I'd have given up long ago. Every creative industry has its wannabes, espeically when the barriers of entry are virtually non existent (writing) or extremely low (digital photography). And in any creative industry there are plenty of people who'll employ the wannabes or talentless because they're either cheap, clueless or simply don't need high quality stuff. You think Michaelangelo got upset at every mediocre painter or decorator in Italy?! I have a couple friends who are professional photographers and, quite frankly, I don't think much of their work. But they still make a living, and when it comes down to it that's all that's important -- making a living. To make a killing, however, you need talent and some luck Jul 01, 2009 at 02:37 AM

davmc2000 Offline Image Upload: Off p.1 #25 · Defining the Photo Industry I won't beat the dead horse here, everyone has made some good points. This sounds like an opportunity for someone with a little motivation to make some good money. There are plenty of people on the web packaging their skills and knowledge into e-courses, e-books, dvd's, etc. There will always be people looking for opportunities, so why not give them what they want (so to speak) and make some money at the same time? Jul 01, 2009 at 03:00 AM

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