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Archive 2009 · On Internet Critique

  
 
jcolman
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p.3 #1 · On Internet Critique


I take critique very well. Just ask my wife.


Actually I'm being serious for once. My wife has always been my best critic. For one, she's not a photographer but she knows when my work is good even if she can't always tell me what makes it good. She also knows what appeals to the majority of my clients.

We, as photographers, often get caught up in the minutia (did I spell that right?) of the details and may fail to see the overall impact a photo or series of photos has on our clients. When someone says "I'm sure your client will love it" and the client comes back with "I love the photos" then do we really need to go any farther? Our work here is done.

Perhaps one should judge their work on remarks not by photographers but rather by mr and mrs average couple. Then you can decide if you want to need to change your approach to photography based on their feedback.

Oh wait....we already do. It's called our bookings.







Mar 16, 2009 at 12:16 PM
jcolman
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p.3 #2 · On Internet Critique


Or as a very no-so-famous photographer once said, "asking a roomful of photographers to critique your photo is like asking a roomful of chefs if the soup needs more seasoning".


Mar 16, 2009 at 12:29 PM
1decmal8Tango
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p.3 #3 · On Internet Critique


I don't even critique anymore because people get so offended if you don't praise their work no matter how much it sucks.

When I first joined FM there were a lot of pros in every section offering free advice to the novice - semi professional and I took in all the info I could. It's no longer like that for the most part. Now I just browse and chuckle at all the "$100 wedding photographers" (if you know what I mean) that live in every section and beg for praise and go through the roof when someone doesn't tell them what they want to hear.

After all, critique means "tell me how good it is", doesn't it?



Mar 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.3 #4 · On Internet Critique


1decmal8Tango wrote:
I don't even critique anymore because people get so offended if you don't praise their work no matter how much it sucks.

When I first joined FM there were a lot of pros in every section offering free advice to the novice - semi professional and I took in all the info I could. It's no longer like that for the most part. Now I just browse and chuckle at all the "$100 wedding photographers" (if you know what I mean) that live in every section and beg for praise and go through the roof when someone doesn't tell them what
...Show more


You need to look closer, it's definitely here.



Mar 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #5 · On Internet Critique


jeremy_clay wrote:
You need to look closer, it's definitely here.


Jeremy is living proof that we're not all $100 photographers. He charges at least $250 for all day coverage.



Mar 16, 2009 at 12:52 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.3 #6 · On Internet Critique


Tony Hoffer wrote:
Jeremy is living proof that we're not all $100 photographers. He charges at least $250 for all day coverage.


One can dream, Tony, one can dream.



Mar 16, 2009 at 12:56 PM
ContagiousIdea
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p.3 #7 · On Internet Critique


jeremy_clay wrote:
It's there, and only 1 reply (big shock?). ContagiousIdea cross-posted for him, but if any forum should study it, People Photography would be in the running.


Yeah I mainly posted it for the heck of it there, was curious of the response, but it's probably too long of a post for them.



Mar 16, 2009 at 01:22 PM
dmacmillan
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p.3 #8 · On Internet Critique


ContagiousIdea wrote:
Yeah I mainly posted it for the heck of it there, was curious of the response, but it's probably too long of a post for them.

It's 1930 words. Here's another hint. The Flesch-Kincaid grade level score is 12.6.
It also makes sense.



Mar 16, 2009 at 01:49 PM
57suzi
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p.3 #9 · On Internet Critique


The above poster is right, most of the pros who were here early on are gone or seldom heard from, but we have a high number of very successful professionals who we have literally watched "grow up" in this business and who continue to come here both to sharpen their skills with the others of their level, and to encourage and mentor posters of all levels.
Even the posts from our local "rock stars" who say "enjoy" rather than "c and c welcome" are, I believe, posting as a way to share and encourage all of us. They rejoice in the satisfaction and success they are enjoying and generously post their work as inspiration and an inducement for all of us. And for the most part, I think they want to hear if someone who knows their works offers some crit, like "not your best,bud", or "you changed up your PP, it's not working for me".
In other words, I think the Wedding Forum here works pretty much as it should. We have our Rock Stars, our Noobs, our Lurkers, our Regular Joes, our Whiners, and our Local Curmudgeon.



Mar 16, 2009 at 01:57 PM
rweav72
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p.3 #10 · On Internet Critique


Evan wrote:

My standard for providing critique is to ask myself the question: have I done my best to provide feedback in the best interest of the artist. This goes for both my response and the manner in which the response is presented.

Golden Rule of Photography Critique!



Mar 16, 2009 at 05:59 PM
Andrew Welsh
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p.3 #11 · On Internet Critique


This forum is pretty high school at times. There are cool kids and wanna-bes and outsiders.

One point to consider is pretty much anyone can identify crappy music even if they don't know anything about composition, rhythm or tone. My experience here is the strawberry jam principle doesn't really apply here, since people don't get tripped up in critique. I see that more in the people photography forum though, especially of model photography pics.

Gotta be something to the whole "take pics of hot chicks" thing in the people photography forum... esp. among the male photographers who secretly want to date the models, versus event photographers like weddings or sports (forums which are much friendlier) dealing with "normal" people.



Mar 16, 2009 at 07:05 PM
DB
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p.3 #12 · On Internet Critique


Great post, Maurice. Well, I generally find all of your posts very insightful. But this one was very good.


Mar 16, 2009 at 07:34 PM
mauriceramirez
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p.3 #13 · On Internet Critique


Sorry, Deb, I deleted initially because I thought it was a bit of a hijack. But since you commented I'll repost. =)

--

Evan, an interesting and timely post. I think its helpful with qualifying our critiques. You touched on something which I think is a distraction for some, and personally I find a bit annoying.

The whole "rockstar" thing.

Dunno if its just a mentality or one reflection of an industry which has achieved some degree of pop phenomenon but I just wanna make a puke-in-my-mouth gesture now whenever I hear it.

I really enjoyed WPPI and got massive inspiration from it but frankly this year sometimes the fawning got cheesy. We're wedding photographers for god's sake. Some are artful and passionate about it. Some are also really good business and marketing people. Yeah, what we do is important in that it adds a little perspective to people's lives in terms of intimate memories. But that's it. We're not carrying people out of burning buildings, nor photographing refugees running from napalm blasts.

I for one, would like to keep this thing going for awhile and only as a humble meritocracy will it not eventually burn out like real estate and investments and dot-coms and biotech and all the other cyclical industries that fade out once things like sales pitches, imitation/trends, and the respect and goodwill of our client base, and ourselves, are exhausted.

Not to complain. Just taking an opportunity to suggest that we get over ourselves and our heroes, and take stock. Its related in a way with how we evaluate ourselves and our images.

-m



Mar 16, 2009 at 07:38 PM
unblinkable
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p.3 #14 · On Internet Critique


Andrew Welsh wrote:
One point to consider is pretty much anyone can identify crappy music even if they don't know anything about composition, rhythm or tone.


I don't agree. I think almost everyone can identify REALLY crappy music. I mean, never gonna get signed to a label crappy (Do a YouTube search for "No Mo' Breakfast" and see what I mean). But millions of people bought, listened and happily danced to "Achy-Breaky Heart". As a former music major, it's quite amazing how many people don't just dislike LISTENING to arias, but also think that they're "crappy songs". There's no accounting for taste.

And that's what it is when the general populace likes or dislikes something. It's just personal preference. Country people like country songs and so on. Same with pictures. The general populace likes what they like and can't always tell you why. If you're in business to make something that just pleases customers, then you can do all the selective coloring you want and you'll keep breaking print sales records.

In a forum this size... even with everyone calling themselves photographers, we still have a lot of "general populous" opinions. It's okay to have 'em. But I think it's selling others short to say that all critiques are of equal value, and that anyone can spot a crap shot. If ANYONE could spot them, then there would be a LOT more lesson-giving and a lot LESS praise on here.



Mar 16, 2009 at 08:35 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #15 · On Internet Critique


mauriceramirez wrote:
Sorry, Deb, I deleted initially because I thought it was a bit of a hijack. But since you commented I'll repost. =)

--

Evan, an interesting and timely post. I think its helpful with qualifying our critiques. You touched on something which I think is a distraction for some, and personally I find a bit annoying.

The whole "rockstar" thing.

Dunno if its just a mentality or one reflection of an industry which has achieved some degree of pop phenomenon but I just wanna make a puke-in-my-mouth gesture now whenever I hear it.

I really enjoyed WPPI and got massive inspiration from it but frankly
...Show more



Mar 16, 2009 at 09:12 PM
Todd Baugh
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p.3 #16 · On Internet Critique


In addition to the cat pictures posted above, I can't help myself.




Mar 16, 2009 at 10:02 PM
ksmahgrts
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p.3 #17 · On Internet Critique


ContagiousIdea wrote:
Yeah I mainly posted it for the heck of it there, was curious of the response, but it's probably too long of a post for them.


i stopped visiting threads in the People forum when the overabundance of "if it's got boobs, it's awesome" became nauseating.

now back to the initial topic - terrific insights as always, evan.

i'm of the mindset that to be most successful, critique should be honest, specific, and be presented in a "1. here's what works for me and 2. here's what i'd like to see if you were to attempt this again..." format.

it's a good jumping off point. it allows the photographer to say, "here are the elements i appear to be doing well and should continue to explore, and here are the suggested areas of need where i might want to focus some energy." feedback in a forum is not a mandate. what the photographer chooses to do with the information is framed by his level of experience and also his ability to look objectively at his own work.

as for the 'consider the source' bit, i would argue that those who are truly self-aware and unconcerned with ego don't fret over the source of the criticism. looking at someone's credentials and body of work helps you to form a value judgment about their work, but doesn't necessarily make their criticism any more or less valid. if you've done your homework, are honest with yourself about your skill sets, and are committed to growth, you will take each new piece of criticism as an opportunity for reflection and not as a point of contention. does it apply to you? great. use it. no? read it. digest it. discuss it. move on. i always find it funny (and a bit sad) when someone offers up their work for evaluation and then feels the need to tear the respondents apart instead of just taking the criticism for what it's worth, asking clarification questions if needed, and choosing to apply the feedback or not.

and then there's just the whole 'nature of the internet' thing - online criticism gets messy for a few reasons.
-often times the person soliciting the feedback has not been honest with himself as to his motivation for posting. when ego gets in the way, it's easy to take constructive critique personally, become defensive and 'fight back'.
-written communication is tricky, period. tone is easily misinterpreted, and a simple misunderstanding can quickly escalate.
-and of course, some people are just miserable bastards and see the opportunity to criticize as a chance to flex their jackass muscle. the anonymity of the internet makes it easy to be an ass. people who thrive on chaos can belittle, torment, and harass others with relatively little repercussion. and that, friends, is why some of us choose to remain just a screen name to all but a few trusted individuals. (you know i adore you jeremy but this is a point where we disagree - one crazyass cyber-stalker was enough for me thankyouverymuch.)

i guess the last thing would be to talk about praise. tell me again why appreciating the work of our peers and telling people how fabulous they are is a bad thing?

make no mistake that critique and praise serve two entirely different functions, but we're such an all or nothing society (even around here) that we can take a positive thing - celebrating someone's success - and turn it into a negative - by labeling it as undeserved and unproductive. lovefests and pats on the back are a GOOD THING when offered with sincerity. positivity fosters positivity and contributes to the continued growth of our community. that warm fuzzy is only a bad thing if we're all so busy smooching each other's behinds that we get stagnant, fail to challenge ourselves, stop pushing the boundaries of art and innovation, and quit growing.

and yea. that's what i think. damn, that was long.

good talk y'all.

oh - and AMEN MAURICE.

i have a great deal of respect for people who can not only dream big, but execute big. however, when your brand gets too big for your britches, you've lost me.



Mar 17, 2009 at 12:13 AM
dmacmillan
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p.3 #18 · On Internet Critique


unblinkable wrote:
But millions of people bought, listened and happily danced to "Achy-Breaky Heart". As a former music major, it's quite amazing how many people don't just dislike LISTENING to arias, but also think that they're "crappy songs". There's no accounting for taste.

I couldn't let this go by without commenting. I like arias!

Also, if you haven't heard it, you need to listen to Weird Al's "Achy Breaky Song which includes:

Oh, please dont play that song
That irritating song
Id rather have a pitchfork in my brain...

I'm also reminded of Mark Twain's observation: "Wagner's music is actually much better than it sounds."

Doug



Mar 17, 2009 at 08:10 AM
simonjon
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p.3 #19 · On Internet Critique


There is a difference between the wedding forum and most others. Most of us are trying to make some kind of a living doing this thing. You just have to look at the quality of some of the shots in the other forums to realize that a lot of people that frequent those forums are stumbling about in the dark. Many of those shots are for private consumption and are posted up because the shooter is excited about the result although they would not be able to repeat it if they tried.

In this forum most posts are a result of a commercial agreement to produce quality work. The shooter should be able to consider criticism and apply advice if they feel that it is relevant. There was a recent comment posted about lateral space and non traditional crops. The photographer should have had the self confidence to say to themselves good point but I'm glad that this is the shot that I posted in this size because it had max impact. Besides, the 3 shots taken just prior to this frame have plenty of lateral space.

We are getting paid, it's not brain surgery, we should be getting better, and this is a great place to get feedback if you're not getting it from your clients, family, friends.

Having said all of that I agree with your points Evan.



Mar 17, 2009 at 08:12 AM
1decmal8Tango
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p.3 #20 · On Internet Critique


Tony Hoffer wrote:
Jeremy is living proof that we're not all $100 photographers. He charges at least $250 for all day coverage.


Apparently you didn't 'know what I mean'. I'm refering to the type who bought an SLR so that automatically makes them a "semi-professional". You know, when the bride and groom say, "I have a friend who will do it for $100"...those types.

Or maybe you are



Mar 17, 2009 at 09:59 AM
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