Super high speed strobe sync

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Archive 2009 · Super high speed strobe sync

hieuuu
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p.1 #1 · Super high speed strobe sync

Taking a poll

What is the fastest STUDIO strobe sync you guys have achived with what system.
and methodology you used to achieve it.

This is question is more for SLR, Canon, Nikon Sony etc.. with addition of studio strobes.

I understand the flash duration thing etc, I'm asking about flash sync for off camera strobe setups.

Edited on Mar 14, 2009 at 04:31 PM · View previous versions

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:00 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #2 · Super high speed strobe sync

I'm doing something i think is new but can't imagine nobody else has tried it.
is 1/1000th shutter even possible

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:02 PM

TJ Asher
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p.1 #3 · Super high speed strobe sync

Depends on the camera.

A lot of MF cameras with leaf shutters routinely sync up to 1/750 of a second.

I've synced to 1/2500 with my Canon G9.

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:19 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #4 · Super high speed strobe sync

What was your strobe setup ?

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:21 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #5 · Super high speed strobe sync

At the lowest power setting a hot shoe flash has a duration of about 1/50,000th sec.

I've Vivitar 285HVs to freeze water drops and splashes...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The short flash duration, not the shutter speed, stops the action. Hot shoe flashes are needed because of the way they can switch off the power to the flash tube. Most studio flashes work by dumping the entire contents of the capacitors and thus they have much longer flash durations.

Triggering the flash at the right time is simply a matter of trial and error unless you want to invest in motion-gate or sound triggers (for bullets).

Chuck

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:24 PM

yearick
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p.1 #6 · Super high speed strobe sync

You can get strobes to snyc at any speed you just need to trick them. I've run an optical slave taped to the top of a 530 ex which is then hard wired to a power pack. (The flash is set to high speed sync). The only problem that I've run into is for every shutter speed you increase you lose an f-stop in power, so you have to bring a lot of light. From what I've read the new radio popper will do this out of the box, but still have the same problem with power fall off. The image on the front of my website was shot a 2000 of a sec, with a prophoto 7a at full power off to the subject's left.

www.johnyearick.com

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:27 PM

hardlyboring
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p.1 #7 · Super high speed strobe sync

two words radio poppers

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:29 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #8 · Super high speed strobe sync

Its difficult to answer if you keep changing the question

Flash sync speed is a function of camera / shutter design. The focal plane shutter camera can't instruct the flash to fire until the first curtain of a focal plane shutter fully opens, which typically takes about 1/500th to /400th sec. Flash fires, second curtain closes. When the shutter gets to fast the shadow of the second curtain is recorded. The specified x-sync speeds can often be exceeded, but not by any great amount. Cameras without focal plane shutters can sync at higher speeds because there's no shutter curtain to wait for.

But if you want to stop fast action with a DSLR you can use a different strategy. Reduce the ambient light so there will be no blur trail ( a totally dark room is best) use a long shutter speed, then fire the flash manually to make the action stopping exposure. In that scenario the power level used will determine the flash duration. As mentioned previous hot shoe flashes work best for this because they have shorter flash durations.

High speed sync mode, which pulses a hot shoe flash rapidly, works well for shooting at wide apertures in bright outdoor light, but its not the tool you'd want to use to freeze action.

Chuck

Edited on Mar 14, 2009 at 05:05 PM · View previous versions

Mar 14, 2009 at 04:45 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #9 · Super high speed strobe sync

k yearick seams to be the only person to answer the POLL

Sry i had to clarify the question everone else seams to be stuck on flash duration.
I'm asking about x-sync / studio strobe sync and what everyone is using to go beyond the standard 200 or 250 rated in x-sync.

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:01 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #10 · Super high speed strobe sync

Yes i understand flash duration to stop action with 2 stops above ambient blah blah blah. x-sync rating , radio poppers, flestt5 pw's all the usual.

I'm looking to achieve high shutter speeds with strobes set on KILL mode or at least momentary blindness.

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:05 PM

cwebster
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p.1 #11 · Super high speed strobe sync

I think TJ answered that. You need a leaf shutter, such as is found in some MF cameras/lenses.

SLRs won't do it, because the shutter isn't wide open at any speed higher than x-sync speed.

<Chas>

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:10 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #12 · Super high speed strobe sync

A better question is why do you think you need a faster sync speed? Responders are "stuck" on flash duration because we are trying to make you realize that's what stops action when flash is used, not the shutter. The shutter simply regulates the amount of ambient light affecting the exposure.

Most don't try to exceed x-sync with normal shooting because there is no need for short shutter speeds most studio shots: the duration of the flash stops the action and the ambient level in the studio is low enough to prevent post-flash ambient blur trails.

Most use radio triggers for convenience and their latency often requires slowing the shutter below x-sync. There is about a thread a week here about that problem.

Chuck

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:15 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #13 · Super high speed strobe sync

Heres my scenario to let you better understand my push in faster shutter speeds x-sync. When you are shooting a moving product say a dance costume in action the scenario of flash duration becomes less feasible for me because i need a lot of light for both flat and bright subject matter and the stage is 30' * 30'

Yes i can stop action but I can't allow the dancer to freeley roam a stage and expect to ge a good shot. Yes i understand how to stop action I'm just trying to achieve in a different manner. That I can afford.

I have been able to achieve this with very low cost and wanted to share but thought somebody else has to have thought of it before.

It's yearick is on a similar track as me.

I have achieved full shutter 1/8000 fully synced and the solution is so simple I thought I must be crazy.

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:43 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #14 · Super high speed strobe sync

I woke up thinking why hasn't this been posted before?

I used my canon 580ex II in high speed sync to trigger my strobes via wein slaves built on my dynalites. I turned the power on my 580 all the way down to conserve power so i could cycle as fast as my strobes and WOW it worked fully sync all the way down to 1/8000th NO BLACK LINE from shutter and should be achievable with any one's current setup.

It is that simple.

What do you think it's alot cheaper than 4 prophoto 2400ws 7a's and 6 pro heads say $30,000 bucks cheaper.

Would love to see our community benifit from this. HOpe this works for someone else out there.

And yes I am an amateur have never gotten paid for a photo yet.

I'm going to do my first photo shoot in may and the pro i used could never freeze action enough for my situation and he's been doing this for decade's 10+ years as our photographer.

Edited on Mar 14, 2009 at 07:15 PM · View previous versions

Mar 14, 2009 at 05:56 PM

Talofa
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p.1 #15 · Super high speed strobe sync

oh lord...you did post it twice

Mar 14, 2009 at 06:02 PM

oobie
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p.1 #16 · Super high speed strobe sync

Talofa - no need to be rude...

Hieuu...what camera are you using?

Mar 14, 2009 at 07:00 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #17 · Super high speed strobe sync

Canon 5d mark ii

Mar 14, 2009 at 07:13 PM

PShizzy
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p.1 #18 · Super high speed strobe sync

1/1000th is easy with a Pocket Wizard and the 1D or D70 (or any other CCD based electronic shutter). You can even strobe with consumer cameras with hotshoes, like a G9 or G10, up to 1/1000th with a Pocket Wizard.

With a hardwire, the same 1D can go to 1/2500th of a second.

Max

Mar 14, 2009 at 07:21 PM

lwrnclightner
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p.1 #19 · Super high speed strobe sync

PShizzy wrote:
1/1000th is easy with a Pocket Wizard and the 1D or D70 (or any other CCD based electronic shutter). You can even strobe with consumer cameras with hotshoes, like a G9 or G10, up to 1/1000th with a Pocket Wizard.

With a hardwire, the same 1D can go to 1/2500th of a second.

Max

Is hardwire the same as trigger/recvr? Because I have achieved 1/2500th just playing around to see how high I could go with a 1d w/ ab cst and cstr 's

Mar 14, 2009 at 07:53 PM

cgardner
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p.1 #20 · Super high speed strobe sync

At 1/8000th sec the sensor is exposed by a very narrow slit formed by the rear curtain chasing the front one across the sensor.

What is suspect what happening is that flash duration of your Dynalites is much longer than 1/8000th second, but the 580exII in high speed FP mode starts the flash pulsing slightly before the shutter actually opens which gives the optically triggered Dynalites time to fire and ramp up to full intensity just as the narrow shutter slit starts whizzing across the sensor. Since the flash duration is longer than the shutter speed the Dynalite is able to illuminate the entire frame evenly just as ambient light would.

The 580exII probably isn't adding much light to the exposure, its simply acting as the advance trigger. Its a bit like the sync for flash bulbs on older SLRs like my Nikon F. Flash bulbs take so long to ignite the sync signal to fire them occurs before the shutter opened.

Do you have examples you can post?

Chuck

Mar 14, 2009 at 08:17 PM

bacilonur
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p.1 #21 · Super high speed strobe sync

The main disadvantage to that is it's highly impractical for the primary reason you'd want that: Outdoors. You can technically do the same thing through careful use of a PW Multimax's delay feature, triggering the camera and the strobe separately but timed just right.

Mar 14, 2009 at 08:43 PM

hieuuu
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p.1 #22 · Super high speed strobe sync

I can post a pic but I don't know what that will show? It just looks like a normal picture with strobe lighting and no black line from curtain

I own and experimented for weeks with multimax and it could not sync faster than 1/200, at 1/250th I start to get the black line from curtain.
I'm using 5dII with m2000wi packs, 580exii in high speed mode just as the trigger, The packs are set as optical slaves for trigger

It shouldn't be a problem to locate the packs outdoors together and then having the 580 flash pointing directly at them to trigger, i see this as a easy fix or even using the new pw flextt5 system to radio trigger the flash in high speed which is what they were really built for and you could have the flash pointing down directly above the optical slave

I'm recieving my flextt5 from bhphoto on tuesday we'll see if everything works out then. It's supposed to be able to high speed sync for canon flashes.

Mar 15, 2009 at 01:10 AM

bacilonur
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p.1 #23 · Super high speed strobe sync

The main thing a test will show is how much power you're getting out of your strobe, though you could just tell us the exposure and distance instead. Also, was your 580 in ETTL HSS or M HSS? You make it sound like it's in M HSS at a low power setting, which would mean that it's being fired considerably before the exposure begins, which may very well be true and part of the reason why HSS is so inefficient. But hey, either way, good on you for experimenting.

Mar 15, 2009 at 03:09 AM

Carmen Miranda
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p.1 #24 · Super high speed strobe sync

hieuuu wrote:
I can post a pic but I don't know what that will show? It just looks like a normal picture with strobe lighting and no black line from curtain

The fact that 580 can trigger the Dynalite in HSS mode using white light slave does not mean that the Dynalites are contributing anything to the exposure, making the test meaningless.

No black line is probably evidence that there is indeed no exposure contribution from the Dynalites.

But, even if studio strobes could synchronize in HSS, your Dynalites would still need more time than 1/8000 to deliver their metered output since they most likely have a longer flash duration.

I'm recieving my flextt5 from bhphoto on tuesday we'll see if everything works out then. It's supposed to be able to high speed sync for canon flashes.

The reason the Flex works, albeit limited, in HSS is because:
A. Camera is able to communicate with a ETTL strobe, which it cannot do with a studio strobe.
B. Extremely short flash duration of a low power pulse from the 580. Studio strobe flash durations are typically shortest at their max power, but still much longer than a thyristor flash at low power.

Not sure why you'd want high studio strobe output with HSS ETTL functionality, but if you could it won't be as easy as you make it sound.
Synchronization is only one of many issues that would need to be addressed for studio strobes to work successfully at super high shutter speeds.

As Adam and Jamie would say, without pictures and EXIF, this Myth is............... busted.

Good luck though.

Mar 15, 2009 at 04:00 AM

Matt Leitholt
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p.1 #25 · Super high speed strobe sync

The new Pocketwizards are supposed to sync at 1/8000th with multiple strobes as well as radiopoppers.

Mar 15, 2009 at 05:11 AM


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